Phospohorous def./Nitrogen tox. or something... (obviously, I don't know!)

MerryJizzRain

MerryJizzRain

Member
Hey Experts,

I have two Afghani plants grown from seed. Both were vegged in a CFL grow box. One was moved to another room and put under a 250W HPS light the other was let to veg for a few more weeks then turned to flowering in the CFL box. Here are the ladies side by side today. The HPS Afghani (right side) is bigger as she's had more room and more light to work with (plus as you can see by the pots she's got a bit of a leg up on the competition.

My CFL box currently has 5 x 42W + 4 x 23W twisters bulbs at a ratio of approx 3/1:2700K/6500K. The HPS has, as stated a 250W bulb overhead plus several 42W CFL bulbs of both spectrum around the plant. The hairs of the CFL box Afghani are turning pink, the new foliage is clawing like there's a N deficiency and the lower oldest leaves are yellowing. The HPS Afghani has hairs that remains white despite flowering for longer and none of the leaves have ever curled or yellowed. They were both vegged in triple mix soil and then when upgraded into the flowering pots where filled in with Schultz's Potting Soil Plus (0.08-0.12-0.8)... I know stay classy, eh!. They also each have two of Jobes tomatoe fertilizer spikes for good measure (6-18-6). They get water every 2/3 days that is adjusted to approx 6ph, once a week they get some extra loving in the form of a tbsp of eggshell tea in the watering can, and recently a few dabs of molasses.

Besides the variables of phenotype, having slightly less root space and less light what can explain the clawing leaves (too much N) and pinky hairs, dark leaves and yellowing undergrowth (Ph def.) of the CFL Afghani?

Thanks
 

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MammothGrow

MammothGrow

Well-Known Member
MerryJizzRain said:
Hey Experts,

I have two Afghani plants grown from seed. Both were vegged in a CFL grow box. One was moved to another room and put under a 250W HPS light the other was let to veg for a few more weeks then turned to flowering in the CFL box. Here are the ladies side by side today. The HPS Afghani (right side) is bigger as she's had more room and more light to work with (plus as you can see by the pots she's got a bit of a leg up on the competition.

My CFL box currently has 5 x 42W + 4 x 23W twisters bulbs at a ratio of approx 3/1:2700K/6500K. The HPS has, as stated a 250W bulb overhead plus several 42W CFL bulbs of both spectrum around the plant. The hairs of the CFL box Afghani are turning pink, the new foliage is clawing like there's a N deficiency and the lower oldest leaves are yellowing. The HPS Afghani has hairs that remains white despite flowering for longer and none of the leaves have ever curled or yellowed. They were both vegged in triple mix soil and then when upgraded into the flowering pots where filled in with Schultz's Potting Soil Plus (0.08-0.12-0.8)... I know stay classy, eh!. They also each have two of Jobes tomatoe fertilizer spikes for good measure (6-18-6). They get water every 2/3 days that is adjusted to approx 6ph, once a week they get some extra loving in the form of a tbsp of eggshell tea in the watering can, and recently a few dabs of molasses.

Besides the variables of phenotype, having slightly less root space and less light what can explain the clawing leaves (too much N) and pinky hairs, dark leaves and yellowing undergrowth (Ph def.) of the CFL Afghani?

Thanks
Click to expand...
the picture of the bud with pink hairs, the leaves definitely look like they are experiencing nitrogen toxicity.
 
greasemonkeymann

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
MammothGrow said:
the picture of the bud with pink hairs, the leaves definitely look like they are experiencing nitrogen toxicity.
Click to expand...
I have zero experience growing with fertilizer spear-thingys... I could only recommend taking them out and running about 2 gallons of water through each, watering slowly. Certainly an issue with too much nutes
 
Dboi87

Dboi87

Well-Known Member
Most soils have buffers in them to auto correct ph, but i would still try to stay in the proper range. i would also check the PPM and total alkalinity of your water if it's straight from the tap.
 
MerryJizzRain

MerryJizzRain

Member
Kush Knight said:
You are pHing wrong.
(420magazine creds)



And also, is the media being allowed to dry? For now flush with low ppm (to cause ro) properly pH'ed water.
Click to expand...
I appreciate the visual... Not sure where I'd got the idea for adjusting water to 6ph. Probably from being an ADD space cadet :P
 
MerryJizzRain

MerryJizzRain

Member
Dboi87 said:
Most soils have buffers in them to auto correct ph, but i would still try to stay in the proper range. i would also check the PPM and total alkalinity of your water if it's straight from the tap.
Click to expand...
Yes gotta reign in the ph. My city's tap water is about 7-7.5ph and the analysis available online is not expressed in PPM. Dissolved minerals are, on average, 91.6 mg/L (though they range between 60-120mg/L. I run my water through a Brita before letting it sit to dechlorinate. I also collect rain water when available to add which is usually around 5.5ph with an unknown PPM ( or mg/L as it the locals say).
 
Kush Knight

Kush Knight

Well-Known Member
MerryJizzRain said:
Yes gotta reign in the ph. My city's tap water is about 7-7.5ph and the analysis available online is not expressed in PPM. Dissolved minerals are, on average, 91.6 mg/L (though they range between 60-120mg/L. I run my water through a Brita before letting it sit to dechlorinate. I also collect rain water when available to add which is usually around 5.5ph with an unknown PPM ( or mg/L as it the locals say).
Click to expand...
Almost Acid rain?
Well I guess 5.6 is actually normal
 
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MerryJizzRain

MerryJizzRain

Member
Even the spring water I occasionally cart in from the country is decidedly acidic. Such is the world we've made (I assume, not being well versed in the historic trends of the earth's respiration cycle). In a generation or two I'm sure the rain will be solid chunks of benzene and carbon :P
 
Dr. Who

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Ph all in going liquids to 6.5 and forget attempting to pH the soil.

Save up a cpl of egg shells and dry them out. Grind to a dust and sprinkle on the soil surface. Scuff the top of the soil to incorporate the shell. This will add Ca and help stabilize the pH a bit.

Remove spikes. and simply water for about a week and a half to 2 weeks with straight pHed water (6.5).

restart a light feeding regime.
 
MerryJizzRain

MerryJizzRain

Member
Dr. Who said:
Ph all in going liquids to 6.5 and forget attempting to pH the soil.

Save up a cpl of egg shells and dry them out. Grind to a dust and sprinkle on the soil surface. Scuff the top of the soil to incorporate the shell. This will add Ca and help stabilize the pH a bit.

Remove spikes. and simply water for about a week and a half to 2 weeks with straight pHed water (6.5).

restart a light feeding regime.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice. I tried to take the spikes out already and they were pretty crumbly so many minute pieces remained in the soil. I had been adding eggshell tea to the water sometimes. It was made with about 20-30 eggshells boiled in a litre of water with a magnesium pill crushed in for good measure and a few drops of vinegar to try and get the necessary elements into the water. The tea has a ph of 6.5. Would you recommend continuing to use the tea in every other feeding, or just scrap it and do the eggshell thing in the soil with straight 6.5ph water.
 
Dr. Who

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
You should be ok on the tea, but I might drop it to only once a week. Don't want to over do the Ca.
The crushed is a more long term solution with far less chance of over use.

You should consider using Epsom salts for any Mg if that's what you feel you need. The reason being is that the Mg pill is not exactly the proper "formation" of mg to be of much use to the plant in the long run.

Little bits of spikes eh?
Ok, be SURE to not over water as that will push MORE nutrient into the plant faster. Water only when needed and use your straight water (w/Mg) Phed to 6.5. Be patient as it will take time to use the remaining nutes up.

Get yourself a SMALL bottle of DynaGro "Grow" formula. Mix at 1.5 ml per gallon and Ph to the 6.5 and use this once a week starting in a week and a half - 2 weeks. This will boost your P & K to bloom levels accepted by the plant, without creating a P tox issue.

Good Luck!
 
MerryJizzRain

MerryJizzRain

Member
Dr. Who said:
You should be ok on the tea, but I might drop it to only once a week. Don't want to over do the Ca.
The crushed is a more long term solution with far less chance of over use.

You should consider using Epsom salts for any Mg if that's what you feel you need. The reason being is that the Mg pill is not exactly the proper "formation" of mg to be of much use to the plant in the long run.

Little bits of spikes eh?
Ok, be SURE to not over water as that will push MORE nutrient into the plant faster. Water only when needed and use your straight water (w/Mg) Phed to 6.5. Be patient as it will take time to use the remaining nutes up.

Get yourself a SMALL bottle of DynaGro "Grow" formula. Mix at 1.5 ml per gallon and Ph to the 6.5 and use this once a week starting in a week and a half - 2 weeks. This will boost your P & K to bloom levels accepted by the plant, without creating a P tox issue.

Good Luck!
Click to expand...

Thanks Doc! Will do :)
 
MammothGrow

MammothGrow

Well-Known Member
Dboi87 said:
Most soils have buffers in them to auto correct ph, but i would still try to stay in the proper range. i would also check the PPM and total alkalinity of your water if it's straight from the tap.
Click to expand...
If you truly want your soil buffering your ph so you don't have to ph your nutrient solution you have to have your soil very alive with all the beneficial microorganisms. Whatever comes in your soil, especially store bought, isn't going to automatically buffer your ph. Take for instance if you use Roots Organics nutrients such as Buddha Grow, Buddha Bloom etc, when I add these to my 50 gallon res of water it drops my ph to around 4.6 which you would think is way too low to water your plants with. When I give my ladies compost tea to inoculate the soil constantly and have a good concentration of myco in the soil the 4.6 ph solution doesn't even faze them. Before I started making my soil alive I would feed and get nutrient lockout due to the low ph.
 
Dboi87

Dboi87

Well-Known Member
MammothGrow said:
If you truly want your soil buffering your ph so you don't have to ph your nutrient solution you have to have your soil very alive with all the beneficial microorganisms. Whatever comes in your soil, especially store bought, isn't going to automatically buffer your ph. Take for instance if you use Roots Organics nutrients such as Buddha Grow, Buddha Bloom etc, when I add these to my 50 gallon res of water it drops my ph to around 4.6 which you would think is way too low to water your plants with. When I give my ladies compost tea to inoculate the soil constantly and have a good concentration of myco in the soil the 4.6 ph solution doesn't even faze them. Before I started making my soil alive I would feed and get nutrient lockout due to the low ph.
Click to expand...
Never tried organics yet. And I agree that store bought soil isn't necessarily 100% worry free, but as long as you're in a reasonable range you should be alright
 
Dr. Who

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
MammothGrow said:
If you truly want your soil buffering your ph so you don't have to ph your nutrient solution you have to have your soil very alive with all the beneficial microorganisms. Whatever comes in your soil, especially store bought, isn't going to automatically buffer your ph. Take for instance if you use Roots Organics nutrients such as Buddha Grow, Buddha Bloom etc, when I add these to my 50 gallon res of water it drops my ph to around 4.6 which you would think is way too low to water your plants with. When I give my ladies compost tea to inoculate the soil constantly and have a good concentration of myco in the soil the 4.6 ph solution doesn't even faze them. Before I started making my soil alive I would feed and get nutrient lockout due to the low ph.
Click to expand...
I agree and disagree!
You would find it to be more stable and successful TO adjust your ingoing solutions to 6.5 and simply forget about the pH of the soil. This will put less stress ON the living goodies, buy using a "soil" neutral/target pH.
Yes, the health of your bio's is important to pH balance, BUT,, it is not the only thing effecting the soil's ability to self pH.

Glad it works for you, but I would NEVER put a liquid in my soil at a pH of only 4.6! (What I use with my RO water is 6.5 to 6.7 when I add anything as I do a variation on the REV's TLO, water only, and I don't "spike" in bloom either.)
 
MammothGrow

MammothGrow

Well-Known Member
Dr. Who said:
I agree and disagree!
You would find it to be more stable and successful TO adjust your ingoing solutions to 6.5 and simply forget about the pH of the soil. This will put less stress ON the living goodies, buy using a "soil" neutral/target pH.
Yes, the health of your bio's is important to pH balance, BUT,, it is not the only thing effecting the soil's ability to self pH.

Glad it works for you, but I would NEVER put a liquid in my soil at a pH of only 4.6! (What I use with my RO water is 6.5 to 6.7 when I add anything as I do a variation on the REV's TLO, water only, and I don't "spike" in bloom either.)
Click to expand...
I test my soil periodically throughout the whole grow and my soil is almost always 6.5 ph on the dot, even a few hours after feeding a 4.6 ph solution. If your soil is alive and well no need to worry.
 
Dr. Who

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
^^^Quite true.^^^

Your chosen nutrient is, like other liquid organic nutrients, well known for major pH drops when mixed into solution.
I simply don't like that,,,,,4.5 is to low to feed with. Even the maker warns you of this!

I might top dress a little worm castings or an appropriate guano now and then. My water only's do get a splash of FF Big Bloom from time to time and they love it.
I do not prefer organic feeding by nutrients from a bottle on a regular basis. Water only soils!

Drop the dime Bro and get the Rev's TLO book. I like the TLO over Sub's supersoil and that's just my opinion.
 
MerryJizzRain

MerryJizzRain

Member
MammothGrow said:
If you truly want your soil buffering your ph so you don't have to ph your nutrient solution you have to have your soil very alive with all the beneficial microorganisms. Whatever comes in your soil, especially store bought, isn't going to automatically buffer your ph. Take for instance if you use Roots Organics nutrients such as Buddha Grow, Buddha Bloom etc, when I add these to my 50 gallon res of water it drops my ph to around 4.6 which you would think is way too low to water your plants with. When I give my ladies compost tea to inoculate the soil constantly and have a good concentration of myco in the soil the 4.6 ph solution doesn't even faze them. Before I started making my soil alive I would feed and get nutrient lockout due to the low ph.
Click to expand...
I have a package of Mycorrhizal Inoculant leftover from veggie gardening and a container of "Effective Micro organisms", the product is called ProBio balance pro plus. I use the EM for foliar feeding in veg (and occasionally put a bit in the water to decrease the ph) but haven't used the myco powder yet. Just curious do you add the powder to the growing medium at setup or do you add the powder to your water during the first few weeks? I have heard of both ways being used and am curious about opinions on the matter. Would using both the EM and the myco powder be overkill?
 
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