PH problem. Please help...

T

tsilos

Member
Guys I need your help. I decided to start a DWC growing. First I add the nutrients to the water and then I check the PH. Ιt is usually above 7.5. Ok I say. Let's use PH down. I use general hydroponics ph down to make it 5.9-6.0. OK!!! But the problem is that if I check the ph after an hour I take a 7.3-7.5 ph. I 'm getting it to 6.0 again. After 1-2 hours the same. I have a 20 litres (5gallons) container. I tried with my pump on, my pump off my air pump on and off. With and without nutrients. The same results all the time. I also tried to another container. Nothing... So.... What The Fuck is going on? I don't have a ppm meter (...yet) but I think it doesn't matters for the PH.
I will try in a few days again with HESI'S ph down, but until then did you have problems like this??? What could I do...?
 
Spliffer1

Spliffer1

Well-Known Member
I'm pretty new to this too, so don't take my word as gospel. But, after encountering the same problem before, the first thing I would ask you is what kind of water are you using?
Problem I had the most with ph was with tap water.
Municipal water supplies are often treated with some pretty potent buffers which will try to neutralize the ph if a foriegn matter is introduced somewhere in the system. That's why it "rebounds" like that. And it will continue to do that until the buffer is exhausted.
I started using bottled water instead, because I don't have acces to ro water, which is supposed to be the best. I've found that distilled water is about the easiest to adjust, and cheap!
 
insan3

insan3

Well-Known Member
Could be that your ppm is way to high and since your plants are drinking water and not so much nutes makes the concentration on the water higher which raises the ph along with the ppm. This would start to cause the start of nutriet block out. During the time this has been going on have the leaf change colors ? or slow its development of new leafs ? i would start by washing everything out, check ph level after every nutes goes in and make sure no lights gets into the res.
 
Malevolence

Malevolence

New Member
If it's just one 5 gallon bucket, just get purified RO water from the grocery store, cost like 4$. Use some good hydro nutes... I use FloraNova and it settles my ph at around 5.5 and I use a little ph up. Way better than fuckin with tap water and shitty nutes with litmus test strips or something.
 
redi jedi

redi jedi

Well-Known Member
Spliffer1 said:
I'm pretty new to this too, so don't take my word as gospel. But, after encountering the same problem before, the first thing I would ask you is what kind of water are you using?
Problem I had the most with ph was with tap water.
Municipal water supplies are often treated with some pretty potent buffers which will try to neutralize the ph if a foriegn matter is introduced somewhere in the system. That's why it "rebounds" like that. And it will continue to do that until the buffer is exhausted.
I started using bottled water instead, because I don't have acces to ro water, which is supposed to be the best. I've found that distilled water is about the easiest to adjust, and cheap!
Click to expand...
They dont add PH buffers to the municipal water supply, they're added to your nutrients.

Its possible the chlorine in your tap water is causing the PH to rise.

Something you could try, to see if it is the chlorine causing your problem. If you got a spare air pump and stone toss it in a bucket of tap water and let it bubble overnite. That should dissipate most of the chlorine, than take that bucket and mix up your nutes. Be sure you stir well when mixing. Set the PH and check an hour or two later. If it hasn't drifted off, toss a plant in the bucket than check the PH again after another hour or two.

Process of elimination kinda thing..
 
Spliffer1

Spliffer1

Well-Known Member
redi jedi said:
They dont add PH buffers to the municipal water supply, they're added to your nutrients.

Its possible the chlorine in your tap water is causing the PH to rise.

Something you could try, to see if it is the chlorine causing your problem. If you got a spare air pump and stone toss it in a bucket of tap water and let it bubble overnite. That should dissipate most of the chlorine, than take that bucket and mix up your nutes. Be sure you stir well when mixing. Set the PH and check an hour or two later. If it hasn't drifted off, toss a plant in the bucket than check the PH again after another hour or two.

Process of elimination kinda thing..
Click to expand...

I understand what you're saying, however, dissagree very strongly on the buffer(s). As you mentioned, there are buffers added to some, if not most nutes to help compensate for it's acidity. They do, however, add buffers to many municipal water supplies for the purpose I mentioned earlier. Though I am new to the art of the hydro-grow, I'm not a noob to the outside grow. Generaly, tap water has a suitable ph range to water your garden with, but start adding ferts to the equation, and ph needs to be adjusted accordingly.
Testing your water for buffers is simple enough- as you instructed, bubble your water for a day, or let it sit in an open container for a couple of days to allow the chlorine to escape. Test to establish a baseline, then intentionaly adjust ph up or down a bit, wait 12-24 hrs and retest. If ph remains where you set it- you're good to go. However, if it returns to the baseline reading- there are buffers in your water, and will continue to attempt to neutralize the solution until they (buffers) have reached saturation and are exhausted. This is known as "ph rebound", and is a common and very real problem.
As you mentioned, "Process of elimination type thing", is dead on the nose. Eliminate the variables one by one, beginning with the simplest!
untitled.jpg
 
redi jedi

redi jedi

Well-Known Member
Spliffer1 said:
I understand what you're saying, however, dissagree very strongly on the buffer(s). As you mentioned, there are buffers added to some, if not most nutes to help compensate for it's acidity. They do, however, add buffers to many municipal water supplies for the purpose I mentioned earlier. Though I am new to the art of the hydro-grow, I'm not a noob to the outside grow. Generaly, tap water has a suitable ph range to water your garden with, but start adding ferts to the equation, and ph needs to be adjusted accordingly.
Testing your water for buffers is simple enough- as you instructed, bubble your water for a day, or let it sit in an open container for a couple of days to allow the chlorine to escape. Test to establish a baseline, then intentionaly adjust ph up or down a bit, wait 12-24 hrs and retest. If ph remains where you set it- you're good to go. However, if it returns to the baseline reading- there are buffers in your water, and will continue to attempt to neutralize the solution until they (buffers) have reached saturation and are exhausted. This is known as "ph rebound", and is a common and very real problem.
As you mentioned, "Process of elimination type thing", is dead on the nose. Eliminate the variables one by one, beginning with the simplest!
View attachment 2299202
Click to expand...
Tap water may have a buffering capacity due to dissolved minerals...its hardness

Soft water would have less buffering capacity than hard water.

The hardness of tap water is a result of the raw source and usually is not treated because it has no impact on potability.

The only thing added to a municipal water supply is chlorine or chloramine and fluoride.

Still think otherwise?...call your municipality.

Nice tits
 
superstoner1

superstoner1

Well-Known Member
insan3 said:
Could be that your ppm is way to high and since your plants are drinking water and not so much nutes makes the concentration on the water higher which raises the ph along with the ppm. This would start to cause the start of nutriet block out. During the time this has been going on have the leaf change colors ? or slow its development of new leafs ? i would start by washing everything out, check ph level after every nutes goes in and make sure no lights gets into the res.
Click to expand...
im sorry but you are wrong on this. when plants drink more water than nutes the ppm will rise and ph will lower. when they take more nutes than water the ppm will drop and ph will rise.
 
Spliffer1

Spliffer1

Well-Known Member
superstoner1 said:
im sorry but you are wrong on this. when plants drink more water than nutes the ppm will rise and ph will lower. when they take more nutes than water the ppm will drop and ph will rise.
Click to expand...
I keep a small fan running in my grow room for air circulation. I've noticed that if the fan is blowing directly on the plant, it drinks more water than usual, raising the ppm, and ultimately, the ph drops because of it. I've also noticed that the lower my water level is in my res, the more likely I am to have fluctuations in my readings- both ph and ppm. Does that make sense?
 
Spliffer1

Spliffer1

Well-Known Member
redi jedi said:
Tap water may have a buffering capacity due to dissolved minerals...its hardness

Soft water would have less buffering capacity than hard water.

The hardness of tap water is a result of the raw source and usually is not treated because it has no impact on potability.

The only thing added to a municipal water supply is chlorine or chloramine and fluoride.

Still think otherwise?...call your municipality.

Nice tits
Click to expand...

After a bit more research, it would appear you are correct about the additives in municipal water. I have a friend with the water department that I'll be looking up later to discuss with further.
Hmm, learning something new every day!
 
T

tsilos

Member
Guys thank you very much for your help. I use municipal water. I put in my res only water, fixed the PH four days ago and left it with my air stone only. Yesterday I checked the PH and it was 7.8 again... I fixed the PH for one more time and today it s again 7.6. I ll try with distilled water tomorrow and see. The bad news is that due to the ph problems all my little trees died and I have no seeds... Fucking PH. Fucking economical crisis... Fucking life...
 
Sir.Ganga

Sir.Ganga

New Member
What is the problem?? Your plants will use a various Ph range to uptake nutes. Not all nutes are available at one Ph level, the fluctuation actually helps in the uptake of ALL nutrients. If you adjust your ph every time you water you are fine. In hydro I set my ph at 5.6 and in a day its 6.3 so if I water every day I allow my plants to go through the whole range before feeding again the next day.

Your probally doing more good than you know.
 
superstoner1

superstoner1

Well-Known Member
yes a range is ok but 7.3-7.8 is not ok at all. dont settle for ph swings, after the first two days of a new res your ph should stay stable. i check mine every 4-7 days and rarely have to adjust. fix what is causing the swing.
 
T

tsilos

Member
Sir.Ganga said:
What is the problem?? Your plants will use a various Ph range to uptake nutes. Not all nutes are available at one Ph level, the fluctuation actually helps in the uptake of ALL nutrients. If you adjust your ph every time you water you are fine. In hydro I set my ph at 5.6 and in a day its 6.3 so if I water every day I allow my plants to go through the whole range before feeding again the next day.

Your probally doing more good than you know.
Click to expand...
the problem is that my plants are dead as i said earlier. If they where still alive with a water of this ph level I wouldn't have start this thread. I don't expect everything to be perfect but this is totally shit. The ph raises too much by itself.
 
gaztron3030

gaztron3030

Active Member
Have you been getting any snotty looking crap in the water? I had the same ph problem and it was bacteria/algae. PH would rise to near 8 in a matter of 3-4 hours every time. there is a great thread on this subject at this site about beneficial bacteria being the fix to this problem. My plants growth stopped, massive deficiencies and all i could do was stall the algae. cleaning/sterilising does nothing. I dont know if this is your problem but maybe worth looking into?
 
DrDank

DrDank

Well-Known Member
This has been my problem since I moved to california. i actually had to give up dwc and hydro and go back to soil, it got so bad.

1st) There is definitely a buffer additive in municipal tap water. SOMETHING causes the pH to rise -rapidly- if set out over 24hrs. <edit: i think i found what i was looking for: http://www.apswater.com/article.asp?id=30&title=Hard_Water_and_Water_Softening> I asked the guy at my local hydro shop guy if he had encountered this problem, and he does. His only solution was to use RO with a little bit of tap (like 5 to 1), so as not to lose all the micro mineral benefits of tap, and then adjust the pH daily.

2nd) the white snotty algae is (as far as i've been able to research) a low-light anorexic bacteria that results from a) organic matter in the water (like adding nutes) and b) low light exposure. Their "waste" is ammonia, which causes the ph to continually rise. H2O2 (3% grocery store kind) actually makes this problem worse. (high % pool h2o2 may be a better choice, but i haven't tried.)

i have yet to find a real solution to keeping the pH balanced from buffered / pH rebounds of municipal city tap water. I'd love to go back to hydro, but it's too much work if i have to check and adjust twice daily.
 
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