Patent #: US005227537

So much wrong
You have a lot more reading to do, or perhaps from different sources

Aromatherapy does not mean terpenes
Lemongrass essential oil is supposed to be about 75% citral- an aldehyde,among other things

Not specifically terpenes. Why are you so caught up on terpenes? Do you just have some weird attraction To terps over the other compounds

"An essential oil is a concentrated hydrophobic liquid containing volatile aroma compounds from plants. Essential oils are also known as volatile oils, ethereal oils, aetherolea, or simply as the "oil of" the plant from which they were extracted, such as oil of clove. An oil is "essential" in the sense that it contains the "essence of" the plant's fragrance—the characteristic fragrance of the plant from which it is derived.[1]Essential oils do not form a distinctive category for any medical, pharmacological,"

Why do you think essential oils must be steam distilled?
"Essential oils are generally extracted by distillation (cheap), often by using steam. Other processes include expression or solvent extraction. They are used in perfumes, cosmetics, soaps and other products, for flavoring food and drink, and for adding scents to incense and household cleaning products"

Where have you seen people discuss removing terps and add back in?
And yea i am confusing cbd thc (terpenes with low bp) with other terpenes. If you grab one you grab the other by design.
Most of what youll grab is as i said alcohols aldehydes esters. Which DO make up essential oils but it would hardly be essential. Nearly all the terpenes have a higher boiling point than thc, im having difficulty coming up with a list of terps that have a lower boiling point

Anyway like i said i really enjoyed drug delivery systems and creating topicals with different properties, icreasing permeation, extending action, delaying onset, time/controlled release patches. Altering ph, logp, etc....enjoy your quest
And dont assume i dont know anything about oils. I have hundreds, and those diffusers and make all sorts of things.

Grow Goddess said:

@oilmkr420 I don't think you understand where I am coming from in regards to the extractor I showed.

I am preparing myself to get a masters certification in aromatherapy. Aromatherapy is about extracting terpenes and making topical solutions. There are over 40 different carrier oils that can be used.

Anyway, the extractor I showed does not extract THC, it is not meant for that. It is only meant to extract pure terpenes. Steam distilling gets you all of the essential terpenes. Unless every study I looked into is wrong....

One of the reasons to do a terpene extract with cannabis is to be able to use the terpenes as an essential oil just like the other 100% pure essential oils from other plants and such. Like sandalwood, frankincense, clove bud, lavender, just to name a few. These essential plant oils or terpenes have great medicinal properties. It would be awesome to be able to experiment with pure cannabis terpenes to test them alone, and to be able to add them into other cannaibs products.

Click to expand...

By targeting terpines, w co solvents like hexane or soy, you don't degrade the terpinoids w heat and they are better preserved. Low temperature and high pressure do the best job. As I said before, a raw bds is best since it hasn't been tampered w and fractionated, flavanoids, cannabinoids, and terpinoids are all in the extract w very little non compounds of interest in the extract. That goes for a subcritical extraction kept below 88F and 800-1200 psi. Anything beyond that hits a lot of wax,chlorophyll, etc. Unless you've tried the ethanol carbon dioxide extraction, where I gave detailed instruction using a 320CGA tank, your still not able to give an honest opinion. So take the instructions and wow your class certification w your ability.

Steam distillation 212F, decomposes the desired compounds of interest. 88F is way better preservation. By adding terps from other plants, your really cutting the extract. Which isnt desired.

By adding a couple ml of choroform, you will extract THC.

@qwizoking

I thought you were done with this conversation? I will entertain you and answer your questions.

Why am I so hung up on terpenes? I am in this for the medicinal aspect. I guess you just want to get high.

Antibacterial, antifungal, antitumor, antiviral, just to name a few aspects that interest me. The reason why I am so interested in this is because I have seen the difference, which I had mentioned previously. Someone else, who happened to have worked for NASA, GreyWolf, him and I were able to have a quality conversation regarding terpenes and he agrees and understands and respects the interest and my new method of keeping the terpenes in my oil. Feel free to try to contact him and have this discussion. He as discussed on the threads about putting terpenes back into BHO. I have seen it discussed here and have seen GreyWolf talk about it at ICMAG.

Why is it you and oilmkr420 disagree with what GreyWolf and I have discussed and agreed upon? The point here is, I have seen the difference. I have not sat at my computer, using google for information, and talking out my ass about it. I did comparisons and experiments. It has been 5 years of continuous experimenting.

Oil without terpenes, I now consider to be low grade. High grade, medicinal quality oil, contains many undamaged terpenes and that is important to me. Especially since I have witnessed the difference. Again, night and day difference. Even if it is just for getting high, the oil containing undamaged terpenes, in regards to ingesting, will increase the effects well over 100%. I am not entirely sure if that is solely due to the terpenes. There is a probability that a heat decarb process is causing more damage than good to THC.

You claim that you have hundreds of oils and a diffuser. Let's see, how about a picture. Not that it really answers anything, but just to see if you are speaking the truth. Recently you have been telling others to show pictures to back up their claims....

"Essential Oil Constituents
In general, pure essential oil constituents can be subdivided into two distinct groups: the hydrocarbons, which are made up almost exclusively of terpenes (monoterpenes, sesquiterpenes, and diterpenes), and the oxgenated compounds, which are mainly esters, aldehydes, ketones, alcohols, phenols, and oxides.

Terpenes
Terpenes are the largest family of natural products and are found throughout nature. High concentrations of terpenes are found directly after flowering(Paduch et al, 2007). The basic molecular structure of a terpene is an isoprene unit (which has a C2H8 molecular formula):..." (AromaTools, Modern Essentials, Sixth Edition 2014).



This oil was produced without heat, is fully decarbed, and contains cannabis terpenes. 100% organic from A to Z


Due to no heat in the process and possessing undamaged terpenes, this oil makes any other oil I have ingested or used topically seem inadequate, even when it comes to the buzz.

I am speaking from experience. I am not saying I know everything or that I am always right, but it does not change the fact that I am speaking from experience of my own, not others.



Got this from GreyWolf


So, can we be done now? Aside from you posting your pictures...

This document helps verify what I am trying to say.

Here solid proof that applying heat causes serious damage to the terpenes. Also it points out very good reason to use ethanol for a concentrate and Olive oil, but not for a concentrate. I don't use poisonous solvents anymore.

I don't necessarily agree with all that is stated in the article, but it is full of valuable information and comparisons.

Many bring up boiling points and temperatures. If you read this article, you will find that does not carry any value. Different solvents have different effects at different temperatures. Mentioning the boiling point only carries value when the solvent used is disclosed.

http://www.bedrocan.nl/userfiles/file/cannabs oil hazekamp Romano.pdf

Worth reading through.

Grow Goddess said:

This document helps verify what I am trying to say.

Here solid proof that applying heat causes serious damage to the terpenes. Also it points out very good reason to use ethanol for a concentrate and Olive oil, but not for a concentrate. I don't use poisonous solvents anymore.

I don't necessarily agree with all that is stated in the article, but it is full of valuable information and comparisons.

Many bring up boiling points and temperatures. If you read this article, you will find that does not carry any value. Different solvents have different effects at different temperatures. Mentioning the boiling point only carries value when the solvent used is disclosed.

http://www.bedrocan.nl/userfiles/file/cannabs oil hazekamp Romano.pdf

Worth reading through.

Click to expand...

Interesting paper Grow Goddess. I notice their 30 minute, 145°C decarb on dry material did not seem to decarb very well. Gives me more assurance that decarbing after extraction is more efficient for oral consumption. I do want to explore your ND methodology.
I just made an ounce of QWISO extract with no heat. It started with a wonderful fruity aroma, but after a month, that has largely gone. It appears even at room temperature, terpenes are exiting the extract.

@skepler
Keep in mind in that study they were just showing some of the main terpenes, not even close to the full spectrum. Terpenes can also work like CBDs, like a combination lock. Since there are so many CBDs and terpenes in marijuana, it has potential to cure every illness. Although, that would take billions of dollars and decades of research.

Through my experience with hands on testing, any heat whatsoever, even if it is still naturally decarbed after minor heating, it seriously effects the end result. Any heat could be causing major damage to many of the terpenes they were not even testing for, not to mention the CBDs. With the ND Sap, I have learned it can decarb naturally. It seems to decarb best in a more liquid form. Kept sealed in an air tight container. That container needs to be placed in a back up container just in case the liquid does make it past the tightened lid. It has happened to me before.

I do forewarn at least one, maybe two people did report back that their attempt at natural decarbing did not work out for them or at least not so well. I have not QA'ed them yet to see if we can figure out why. I am only on my 5th attempt, but so far, each attempt has been successful.


The vial was only half full and it started to leak out as you can see. That is from the decarbing process releasing CO2. I did sample some recently and it is awesome already! I used 200 proof ethyl. I don't believe it is 100% decarbed yet though it has only been about 30 days, but the buds were 3 months old, stored in sealed jars. I believe the aged buds assisted in the oil naturally decarbing more quickly.


I am curious, you mentioned that your QWISO has been losing flavor and such. Are you storing it in an air tight container? Terpenes will naturally evaporate.

Grow Goddess, I Target terpines to be in the extract. I love their taste and the extract is improved in yield as well as taste and high. I don't love them enough to add another plants terps though. That would cut potency and dilute the extract. More important than THC bp, is its mp, since seperation is done in that mannor.

There is only one kind of cbd who h is cannabidiol. There are many different cannabinoids which are C21 reserved. Cbd has a mp of 151-153F. Small range and whatever melts in that range would give pure cbd w little crossover when premelted to 150F. Melting point apparatus.

Grow Goddess said:

@skepler
Keep in mind in that study they were just showing some of the main terpenes, not even close to the full spectrum. Terpenes can also work like CBDs, like a combination lock. Since there are so many CBDs and terpenes in marijuana, it has potential to cure every illness. Although, that would take billions of dollars and decades of research.

Through my experience with hands on testing, any heat whatsoever, even if it is still naturally decarbed after minor heating, it seriously effects the end result. Any heat could be causing major damage to many of the terpenes they were not even testing for, not to mention the CBDs. With the ND Sap, I have learned it can decarb naturally. It seems to decarb best in a more liquid form. Kept sealed in an air tight container. That container needs to be placed in a back up container just in case the liquid does make it past the tightened lid. It has happened to me before.

I do forewarn at least one, maybe two people did report back that their attempt at natural decarbing did not work out for them or at least not so well. I have not QA'ed them yet to see if we can figure out why. I am only on my 5th attempt, but so far, each attempt has been successful.


The vial was only half full and it started to leak out as you can see. That is from the decarbing process releasing CO2. I did sample some recently and it is awesome already! I used 200 proof ethyl. I don't believe it is 100% decarbed yet though it has only been about 30 days, but the buds were 3 months old, stored in sealed jars. I believe the aged buds assisted in the oil naturally decarbing more quickly.
View attachment 3406065 View attachment 3406064

I am curious, you mentioned that your QWISO has been losing flavor and such. Are you storing it in an air tight container? Terpenes will naturally evaporate.

Click to expand...

I do store it in an airtight container, a 4-5" wide by 2" deep pyrex container. It has quite a large surface area relative to depth of the extract, which may run 2-3/16th of an inch thick for an ounce or so of wax. It is my guess that a deeper container might retain more flavor, less surface area to volume. It still has much more flavor than the shatter I made from the same starting material.

@oilmkr420
I wouldn't put other plant terpenes in my concentrate if I planned on smoking it.
My interest is medicinal uses. Edible, topical, and in some cases vaporizing.
I don't plan to extract terpenes from buds for any other reason than experimental. There is more to this than just getting high. Cannabis is a gift from God, a miracle plant.

I dont think just straight terpenes will have the effect you are thinking. I think most of the medicinal qualities come from the entourage effect meaning all the different parts working together to get the full benefit.

lio lacidem said:

I dont think just straight terpenes will have the effect you are thinking. I think most of the medicinal qualities come from the entourage effect meaning all the different parts working together to get the full benefit.

Click to expand...

There is a very good chance you are correct.

It is very complex when you add in the CBDs, terpenes, and THC. I have compared RSO that was half heat decarbed and half naturally decarbed. Zero effects on toothaches and open wounds at least when it comes to pain. Yet when I tried an oil that was made with the same strains, but fully naturally decarbed without any heat, it was a 100% fix, it completely took care of the pain, absolutely amazing, never saw anything like it. The wounds also healed unbelievably quick and pain free.

I just want to learn more of why, what the difference is. Was it heat causing damage, loss of terpenes, or something esle? I need to know

Also I would like to see what real steam distilled 100% pure essential oil (terpenes) from cannabis is like. It will probably be a requirement towards the master, I may as well use cannabis. I think I can spare a QP to see.

Other than that, my main goal is using naturally decarbed cannabis oil (ND Sap) with other essential oils tailored for specific illnesses. So far I have been having great results. Much better than I expected.

I will definately watch for your results.

If you don't want to get high, then you want a fraction of oil called cbd. The non-psycoative ingredient in marijuana.
QUOTE="Grow Goddess, post: 11549761, member: 183605"]@oilmkr420
I wouldn't put other plant terpenes in my concentrate if I planned on smoking it.
My interest is medicinal uses. Edible, topical, and in some cases vaporizing.
I don't plan to extract terpenes from buds for any other reason than experimental. There is more to this than just getting high. Cannabis is a gift from God, a miracle plant.[/QUOTE]

Oilmaker, you obviously haven't read or don't get at what GG is talking about.

I find this fascinating. I studied statistics. In it, you have this thing called "interact effect". Simply put, it makes something greater than the sum of its parts.

The theory being that terpenes and THC/CBD have an interact effect medicinally. Our concentrate processes likely degrade terpenes, thus causing the impact to be based more solely on the THC/CBD. Keep them in the mix and you have a more effective medicinal product.

The discussion over whether there is a difference between those terpenes being derived from ganja or elsewhere is an intersting one and reminsicent of many I had while in the food industry. Absent of data, I could argue any side which leads me to err on the side of holisitic purity. Nature-equivalent as they call it on the other side of the pond is not the same as what Mother Earth created...

oilmkr420 said:

If you don't want to get high, then you want a fraction of oil called cbd. The non-psycoative ingredient in marijuana.
QUOTE="Grow Goddess, post: 11549761, member: 183605"]@oilmkr420
I wouldn't put other plant terpenes in my concentrate if I planned on smoking it.
My interest is medicinal uses. Edible, topical, and in some cases vaporizing.
I don't plan to extract terpenes from buds for any other reason than experimental. There is more to this than just getting high. Cannabis is a gift from God, a miracle plant.

Click to expand...

[/QUOTE]

You just don't seem to understand. Maybe I can help by putting it in a different way.

Since I started making oil, about 5 years ago, I have never ran out. I prefer ingesting the oil. I have been plenty high for the duration of those 5 years, pretty much 24/7 aside from a couple of experimental breaks to test other products. I don't plan on that changing.

Maybe I should have said it is not all about recreational use. I am seeking medicinal use for people who don't mind the high and for those who do. CBD oil is next on my list. I have it all lined up and ready. I will be receiving a high CBD strain soon, Tora Bora, the real deal, already been tested.

Anyone can make their own high cbd extract. It's done by melting points, the closer to 150F one gets, the next degree is cbd 151F-153F. In that small range, one can melt off the desired compounds of interest w very little crossover. So the tighter controls one has over the temperature w no fluctuations, the higher cbd would be intact in terms of %. Once you hit 154F you hit other cannabinoids and they share melting points w terpinoids. The mp for cannabinol is very close to the cbd temperature so one needs a melting point apparatus.

Steam distillation is to hot and will degrade the terps rendering them weaker because it requires special care below the temperature of 212F is needed. Perhaps one reason -28Hg and 104F are optimal temps, as they not destroy by excessive heat.