Once upon a Time...

ChChoda said:

So you admit that private is the way to go? Glad to see you've come around.

PS- "such a wonderful drug" lol

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No, private is not the way to go. Not for health insurance.

Drug companies are private, even in countries with "socialized" medicine. I was trying to refute the notion that universal health coverage somehow means research and development will be government-run, when that clearly is NOT the case.

Typical that you only read into my statements what you want, and ignore the rest.

doobnVA said:

No, private is not the way to go. Not for health insurance.

Drug companies are private, even in countries with "socialized" medicine. I was trying to refute the notion that universal health coverage somehow means research and development will be government-run, when that clearly is NOT the case.

Typical that you only read into my statements what you want, and ignore the rest.

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So would the government have invented Viagra, an erectile dysfunction drug, or would they tell you to go fuck yourself with your limp dick, cause we got more pressing issues than your wants and desires, noodle.

ChChoda said:

So would the government have invented Viagra, an erectile dysfunction drug, or would they tell you to go fuck yourself with your limp dick, cause we got more pressing issues than your wants and desires, noodle.

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Again, you only read what you want.

A "public option" for health insurance has NO BEARING ON THE DRUG COMPANIES, period. No bearing on research and development from the drug companies, period. The drug companies remain private, and the DRUG COMPANIES develop drugs, NOT the government. Same as it works in other countries with a "universal" health care system, LIKE ENGLAND WHERE VIAGRA WAS DEVELOPED (and they have "government run" health care).

doobnVA said:

Again, you only read what you want.

A "public option" for health insurance has NO BEARING ON THE DRUG COMPANIES, period. No bearing on research and development from the drug companies, period. The drug companies remain private, and the DRUG COMPANIES develop drugs, NOT the government. Same as it works in other countries with a "universal" health care system, LIKE NEW YORK WHERE VIAGRA WAS DEVELOPED (and they have "government run" health care).

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Who buys the drugs from the drug companies? Who will set the payment schedule for drugs if the government is the purchaser? Who will suffer if new drugs aren't developed because they're unprofitable?

ChChoda said:

Who buys the drugs from the drug companies? Who will set the payment schedule for drugs if the government is the purchaser? Who will suffer if new drugs aren't developed because they're unprofitable?

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Who buys the drugs? The patients do, of course. Who sets the price? The drug companies do.

Again, a public option for HEALTH INSURANCE does not mean the government takes over the drug companies, or the hospitals, pharmacies, etc. Not that it matters much, because there is NO PUBLIC OPTION to be had.

Have you read the health reform bill? Do you even have the slightest idea what's in it?

doobnVA said:

Who buys the drugs? The patients do, of course. Who sets the price? The drug companies do.

Again, a public option for HEALTH INSURANCE does not mean the government takes over the drug companies, or the hospitals, pharmacies, etc. Not that it matters much, because there is NO PUBLIC OPTION to be had.

Have you read the health reform bill? Do you even have the slightest idea what's in it?

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Holy shit! so its not going to cost us anything to see the doctor, but gaddamn they are gonna put us on $100 a pill meds that we have to pay for ourselves? The drug companies will go ballistic with prices here, whatever they can get away with. Sure granny can afford to get all the chemotherapy and the nurses and the doctors and the equipment is all paid for, but the $50,000 poison they are gonna give you isn't? How is that going to be better?

My neighbor has PTSD and her meds cost her $120 a month, shes a secretary and makes poverty wages. How the hell is upping her drug cost going to help her? She doesn't need stitches, she needs lifelong medication.

And we still haven't talked about drug company kickbacks to doctors who prescribe their drugs.

I say take every government regulation/statute that ever existed for health care and do away with them all. Then watch the free market create the most responsive, efficient and advanced health care system in the world!

I do realize my last post was a giant straw man, but it feels good to do it sometimes.

NoDrama said:

I do realize my last post was a giant straw man, but it feels good to do it sometimes.

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It does, doesn't it?

I don't recall saying the drug prices should be raised. granny probably has Medicaid, anyway, and if she doesn't then she has insurance - both of which can cover the cost of prescription or at least lower it substantially.

The drug companies can already charge whatever they want for their products, so nothing will change there... except, with more people insured, more people can afford to buy prescription drugs. That means more demand, right? Doesn't increased demand mean lower prices?

PadawanBater said:

So basically both systems are fucked.

Private = extreme amounts of profits going to few people, expensive coverage or none at all if you have any sort of pre existing condition

Public = everyone pays regardless of usage, I keep hearing lower quality - but havn't seen any evidence to support that yet, they seem to get as good or better medical coverage in all the countries with a public option...

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Right now Obama is touting the insurance companies as obscene. But the profit numbers tell a different story.....

The after-tax margins of some big health insurers over the last 12 months. Here's what they made: Among HMOs, Humana, 3.1%; Cigna, 4%; Wellpoint, 5%; and United Health Group, 4.4%. Broader health insurers, like Unum (8.6% after-tax margin) and Aflac (12.3%), do a bit better.
The point is, these are not outrageous profits. And the health care industry's $13 billion in 2008 profits pale in comparison to the $65 billion in annual fraud in Medicare alone.

Now who makes bigger profits by far than the insurance industry... the companies that actually assume the risk?

Why it's the lawyers of course..... not a PEEP from Obama about that.

Connect the dots....

I think "outrageous" is in the eye of the beholder. It isn't about how much money they make, it's HOW they make it.

How do insurance companies make a profit? By denying claims and dropping coverage for people who cost them money. They keep the customers that pay in and never make claims, and they either deny coverage for people who need it, or drop them once they start cutting into the profit (aka "getting sick" and "going to the doctor").

So, is it outrageous that they make billions of dollars? Not really. Is it outrageous that they make money by denying care to people who need it? Absolutely.

They make a modicum of profit by paying close attention to detail. In almost all cases, when someone is dropped, it is because at some point they find the claimant has lied. Either on the disease end or the application end. Both of Obama' "case examples" he used during the speech were ppl who lied and got caught. That is the majority factor.

Insurance isn't about the present, it's about the future. Insurance looks forward. The pools gathered for policies are studied to the minutia. Anyone polluting that pool needs to be pulled out.

The govt. plan will completely pollute the pools.

CrackerJax said:

Now who makes bigger profits by far than the insurance industry... the companies that actually assume the risk?

Why it's the lawyers of course..... not a PEEP from Obama about that.

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both tort reform and illegal immigration are at the heart of our rising medical costs, but brak's equivocations before congress the other day only gave the slightest nod to these problems. why? because both lawyers and illegal immigrants are near and dear to the black heart of the liberal establishment. lawyers and activist judges are the ones actively redistributing wealth through frivolous lawsuits and outrageous punitive damages and the illegal immigrants, once they have been given amnesty and entered onto the welfare roles, are the future ignorant voters who will allow government to expand the welfare state.

the party line is that risk is unacceptable. risk admits the possibility of failure and failure is to be avoided at any cost. those with the capital to take the chance of the failure of their investments must either be protected from their own folly or punished for having more than they need.

CrackerJax said:

They make a modicum of profit by paying close attention to detail. In almost all cases, when someone is dropped, it is because at some point they find the claimant has lied. Either on the disease end or the application end. Both of Obama' "case examples" he used during the speech were ppl who lied and got caught. That is the majority factor.

Insurance isn't about the present, it's about the future. Insurance looks forward. The pools gathered for policies are studied to the minutia. Anyone polluting that pool needs to be pulled out.

The govt. plan will completely pollute the pools.

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Do you work for the insurance industry, or do you just believe every lie a rich, white guy in a suit throws at you?

undertheice said:

both tort reform and illegal immigration are at the heart of our rising medical costs, but brak's equivocations before congress the other day only gave the slightest nod to these problems. why? because both lawyers and illegal immigrants are near and dear to the black heart of the liberal establishment. lawyers and activist judges are the ones actively redistributing wealth through frivolous lawsuits and outrageous punitive damages and the illegal immigrants, once they have been given amnesty and entered onto the welfare roles, are the future ignorant voters who will allow government to expand the welfare state.

the party line is that risk is unacceptable. risk admits the possibility of failure and failure is to be avoided at any cost. those with the capital to take the chance of the failure of their investments must either be protected from their own folly or punished for having more than they need.

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Obama knows how to fix it... he just won't. they all want the power.... they all want the votes. it's a sad state of affairs in Washington DC right now.

doobnVA said:

Do you work for the insurance industry, or do you just believe every lie a rich, white guy in a suit throws at you?

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No, I do understand how insurance really works however, and you most obviously don't.

CrackerJax said:

They make a modicum of profit by paying close attention to detail. In almost all cases, when someone is dropped, it is because at some point they find the claimant has lied. Either on the disease end or the application end. Both of Obama' "case examples" he used during the speech were ppl who lied and got caught. That is the majority factor.

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Dude, you sure do present the multibillion dollar insurance corporations as the victim here...

Big fuckin' deal if someone lied. Are you really going to use that argument? Really? You're telling me you wouldn't lie to get your medical costs covered so you're not paying for it the rest of your life?

So I spend 25 years paying my medical insurance with not so much as a fuckin' peep on the radar having to pay for some insanely expensive medical procedure, but then as soon as I develope something serious, my motherfucking insurance that's supposed to cover me COMPLETELY drops me because of my condition, or makes me pay 50% of the cost?

That's totally OK with you CJ? You think that's how the system should work?

Not the victim... but certainly not the perpetrator Obama makes them out to be.

Biggest costs to you the consumer is the Govt., not the insurance carrier.

That is NOT the way the system works..... and you know it. I see the same thing with medical insurance that I saw in the housing bubble. people don't bother to read what they sign.... it's all a big fat surprise later, but the company is sitting there with ur signature and on page 7 is the exclusion to the procedure you need.

There are countless ways to buy insurance with all kinds of variables. Ppl need to get the right insurance and then maintain it and adjust it as they go through life. That responsibility rides with you, not the carrier.

I'll give you a quick point of this all too common malady, and then amnesia.

My mom had a stock broker who was handling her money in a "unnamed" fund. This was about 10 years ago, and I do very well in the market myself but during that period there was a lot of shaking out going on and I would routinely ask my Mom how she was doing with her investment... Okay... he hasn't called me so...
Well, about 6 months later she calls me up fuming!!! She had lost 60% of the value of her investment and wanted that brokers head. He should have called me!!! I had business near her the following week so I stopped by to look the situation over and run some numbers. Well, in a pile by itself were all these letters.... bunch of them.... monthly statements.... each one worse than the one before. Hand written notes...call me if you want to change your position.... underlined. She never opened them. She was waiting on a phone call!!! My mom.... I do love her...

She is still pissed about that to this day, and still thinks that broker was a crook.

It's an analogy Obama is trying to pass off on the public about the insurance companies... it's just not true. they don't make high profits at all. Whatever you sign off on, you had better truly understand every comma, every period.

later on, you can't admit it to urself, and you sure won't admit it to someone else.

"It's all Obama's fault"

OK, got it...

It's his fault for not seeking the best deal for the american ppl. He is seeking the best deal for the govt.

Not the same thing. You should know better. This is a ruse for control....

CrackerJax said:

It's his fault for not seeking the best deal for the american ppl. He is seeking the best deal for the govt.

Not the same thing. You should know better. This is a ruse for control....

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How would CrackerJax do it?

Take down the state barriers for one. That is a big reason why costs are so high. The govt. puts mandates into places like NJ (which basically tells the carriers that they must take XX% of ppl who wouldn't normally qualify) at a maddening pace, driving up costs. A state like Kentucky has far fewer govt. interventions and ppl there pay about half as much as the same policy in NJ.

Now the Govt. wants it both ways. They forbid you the citizen from insurance shopping and trap you in pools that they control, and then tell you they are the answer.... it's rich... rich I tell you!!

It's also unconstitutional...... but I digress.

Next, pull the thieving lawyers off of the doctors. They don't want MORE lawyers, they want less. Some doctors do get into medicine for the money, but I truly think the vast majority just want to help ppl and make a contribution to others. I can tell you they certainly didn't get into it to have to spend 200k in liability insurance each and every year before they can turn the lights on..... they didn't get into medicine to have an office of 2 doctors, 2 nurses, and 8 administrators. My doctor's office as an adult looks like the DMV. When I was a kid it was just me and the doc, a nurse, and maybe a receptionist who answered the phones. I got face time with the doc. Not now... it's all professional for sure, but done by the clock. They don't like it anymore than you or I do. A very recent poll just came out and had 45% of the doctors considering to quit if the health care bill is passed. They don't want it. The lawyers want it.

I'll go with the doctors..... they don't tell lawyers how to proceed in court. Why should lawyers have a say on doctors? Who regulates the lawyers? no one. It is the one and only major industry which "self regulates". Like to see big oil self regulate. Think about it.

So major TORT reform... give the docs some breathing room.

Last but not least pull the govt away from the entire process. They have enough worries as it is. they have us all TRILLIONS in debt already and it's growing out of control quickly. All these great programs Medicare, medicaid, SS, all exploding with debt. This does not inspire confidence in me. Obama is cutting back on the seniors.... don't think you won't get cut back down the road? You can count on it.... it's a big mess.

So, back to the founding fathers wisdom... if we would only quiet down and listen. Govt. is supposed to regulate commerce.... that's it domestically... just keep out of the way and apply grease when necessary. Everything else is the business of the States and the people. PERIOD>>>>.....

Take down the barriers
Defang the lawyers
Strip the Fed's of regulatory powers over the insurance industry. No more mandates. It's unconstitutional.

The children will sing of me....