No 25 Mile Rule, The Legal Battle Has Begun

irieie said:

Once again half smart is worse than stupid. Keep ranting on it does not really matter what you or I think this issue will run its course and then we will play the hands dealt. Keep telling us the sky is falling chicken little.

Click to expand...

It bothers me a lot that you are trying to shut me down with insults. I'm looking for people who actually understand the issue, who can do some activism that has a chance to be effective. You want the issue to "run its course" which in the very near term leaves us with nothing. We don't need a lawsuit, or a legislative act, or a decree from Will Humble. We need a ballot initiative on the November election that reaffirms what the AMMA is supposed to do.

UnderBelly said:

I am pessimistic because I am quite certain that the law is not going to be amended, and that no "zoning commission" has any kind of authority to change a substantive component of the letter of this law. I don't think you quite understand the magnitude of the challenge here. I also don't think you are considering that if all it took was a 2/3 majority to change this law, this legislature would have already ended the AMMA. If the legislature can change one word of the law, they can repeal it altogether.

Click to expand...

The ONLY way the legislature can amend the law is by 2/3 AND they have to be "furthering the underlying purpose of the original voter-approved measure. " The underlying purpose of the law was to legalize medical marijuana for qualifying patients. They cant vote to shut it down but they can to improve the law. example they could vote with 2/3 majority to add qualifying conditions, or add extra dispensories.

Bill Hayes said:

will keep you in mind, thank you.

Whether you like me or not, I am fighting, for YOUR RIGHTS, something that I have ALWAYS done consistently, without question. Now I need all of you to put whatever it is aside and stand together. Brad, I don't like you, you don't like me, fine, dandy, support the cause, not me.

I am going to FEDERAL COURT to potentially implicate myself in a FEDERAL crime to protect YOUR RIGHTS.

I hope it gets through ^ I seriously do. We need every one to be sharing the links and posting in multiple forums, websites, Twitter. This is a well thought out planned attack. If any of you can agree on anything about me it's the fact that I am cold and calculating.

Click to expand...

I am disabled, live on less than $700 a month with my son who is disabled and lives on less than that. Together we barely afford a rental, have no heat or AC , but do live in rural area more or less, but still within 25 miles of Prescott or Prescott Valley so will fall in the 25 mile rule. I invested all my savings over $2000 into setting up to grow my own meds. I was prescribed over 26 prescriptions for over 4 yrs leaving me bed ridden and in a fog at 45 yrs to 50 yrs old. My daughter committed suicide last June and thats when I weened myself off the poison and started growing. Anyone who is growing for themselves can attest that it takes time to afford, and build a grow area, then the time to afford seeds or clones and then the hit and miss of learning to grow and then a year is up and you maybe got one decent harvest in. In addition the truly poor and needy are usually inter-city or town to be able to afford to get to food, doctors etc. This law is strictly for the rich to get richer and always was. It is almost to the point where it was better when it was illegal. I for one cannot afford to send money BUT this is what I can do for the cause. I will not stop growing, I cannot afford to pay for dispensaries, so if I am arrested I will NOT PLEA OUT no matter what!!! I have nothing to loose, I almost froze to death this winter and not looking forward to a sweltering summer so bring it on. I am not a criminal because of where I happen to be able to afford to live!!!! That is insane and I challenge the courts to actually prove that makes me a criminal over the guy who happens to live in Ashfork or Paulden or etc. How is my activity more illegal? And lets address the "for profit" issue!!! Anyone with a brain cell knows that $50 a gram is insane, do the math... $1400 an ounce!! Or even $25 a gram is $700 an ounce yet patients with excess are paying the bills and charging $225-$300 an ounce including water, electric, and set up equipment. So how obvious is it that the dispensaries are profiting? Even paying an employee is profits if you ask me, there is no need to do so, it is specifically said it is a donation law, so who has the right to decide what is a fair donation? A donation is what the consumer feels they want to give, am I right?
So keep me personally informed, I will let you know if I can if I am ever arrested. Let the State pick up a $50,000 legal bill and $50,000 incarceration bill min, as for I feel a decent Public Defender like the ones we have here in Prescott, will make a long and costly case against the ruling and I would be eventually released.
It is so obvious that the profiteers will put dispensaries in the poorest of areas, places in Phoenix where the sick and poor must live or can afford to live and rape them. That is what I would do if I where the scum that are pushing for dispensaries. I am not any more of a criminal than the person living 25 miles out is? There is something to be said about discrimination I would think also, since the majority of the truly disabled will be within the 25 miles be it in nursing homes or public housing, or just cheap affordable living. Please let us know when you hear anything. And trust that if I am popped I will be rotting in jail as for I cannot afford bail so if you all want to bail me out great, then my son will not be homeless, and I will never plea so I will fight for us all.

I am so glad I found this thread! I'm in SO CA but I'm following this closely because the AMMA as defined, especially WITH the 25 mile radius law lends itself to the exact type of Federal enforcement that could gain acceptance since it would allow them to claim they were not bending their enforcement and interdiction efforts and in fact would be stepped up under the 25 mile radius rule. And the Fed could say they were being 'compassionate' to the patient by eliminating the need to shut down properly licensed dispensaries.

I have two questions that may be able to answered here:

Does anyone here know what the penalties would be if one were to grow within the 25 mile radius?
Why is the licensing for dispensaries only open between May 14 and May 25th? After that the gates are closed?

My concern is that AMMA may become the blueprint to a national policy

chazbolin said:

I am so glad I found this thread! I'm in SO CA but I'm following this closely because the AMMA as defined, especially WITH the 25 mile radius law lends itself to the exact type of Federal enforcement that could gain acceptance since it would allow them to claim they were not bending their enforcement and interdiction efforts and in fact would be stepped up under the 25 mile radius rule. And the Fed could say they were being 'compassionate' to the patient by eliminating the need to shut down properly licensed dispensaries.

I have two questions that may be able to answered here:

Does anyone here know what the penalties would be if one were to grow within the 25 mile radius?
Why is the licensing for dispensaries only open between May 14 and May 25th? After that the gates are closed?

My concern is that AMMA may become the blueprint to a national policy

Click to expand...

I believe the penalties for violating the 25 mile rule is you lose your card and the legal protection of being a mmj patient. You win a charge of attempt to distribute and possession, if my memory serves me right... I REALLY hope that the feds don't make it a habit of violating personal civil rights. The 14th amendment and our state constitution are clear. You cannot afford a legal protection to one class of people that you cannot afford to all classes of people. Just my opinion.

Thanks Mursh

These very well may be the penalties but for people like TetonMoon61 who is already on record stating that he must grow his own meds out of pain managment necessity and because it's all he can afford on his very limited income he is now being possibly elevated to a charge of distribution and possesion because he'll in all likelihood fall within the 25 mile radius rule.

Maybe in consideration for those low income growers such as TM61 giving up personal grows the state would set aside some of the tax revenue they take in from this new distribution system of theirs so people who would qualify and do fall within the 25 mi rule would be eligible for state sponsored mmj. sure

Such utter bullshit!

The only reason I see the May 14th - 25th registration window being open as an advantage is that for everyone of these greedy profitteers who drop the coin to open a 'legal' dispensary it tells everyone within the 25 mile radius its time to move. But then what? They open the registration window again next year? And now your in violation of that new stores 25 mile rule?

Can anyone point me to where precisely on this wonderful new AZDHS website, or anywhere else for that matter, does it define what enforcment and penalties will apply for violating the 25 mile radius rule so it's in writing and we know what to expect? Under these conditions its the very ones qualifying and opening these dispensaries you'll have to fear if you grow your own. Escpecially if the DOJ accepts this formula nationally.

I think the feds will go after the dispensaries when they open. They must supply 70% of the medicine and that will mean big operations which will draw the attention of the feds. The patients will be followed by the Leo as those growing within 25 miles are in violation of state law and committing multiple felonies. I just don't see the doj leaving the dispensaries alone. The fed attorney already warned our state officials that they are planning to shut them down. That is what they have done in every Med state and will continue to do as long as marijuana is schedule one. If you do not follow the rules of amma you are no longer under their protections and are subject to the normal laws of possession, distribution, and manufacture. All of those are felonies in AZ.

Then knowing the feds are going to shut them down why would any sane business person participate in this scheme? Just to apply you have to have $150K liquid and traceable to legitimate business enterprises for 30 day pre and post application. $5K just to apply and you only can back up to $4K if you don't qualify. Or something along those lines.

I think the fix is in with the fed and AZ working together on this. In fact the federal judge that threw the May 2011 case AZ vs DOJ where AZ sought guidance in implementing the AMMA distribution system as to whether or not state employees would be aiding and abetting distribution of a controlled substance by simply granting licenses to the dispensaries. This would be a reasonable request for clarity that was thrown out by the federal judge on the grounds it never rose to judicial review and that the employees were never in jeopardy from federal enforcement activity.

So unless there is a fix what sane business person would invest in such a house of cards?

Chaz, You very much may be right about feds and state colluding to violate personal civil rights at the bequest of a brand new multi-billion dollar industry. To answer your question as to why any sane business person would get into to this gig; you should look up Allan Sobol. People like him (a stark majority of all the mmj investors) see how much reward there is for the risk. Even if they were to get popped, most that would happen is a criminal seizure of assets in lieu of prosecution or coupled with a white collar slap on the wrist. Now a days it seems that if you have enough resources to access traditional media; one could, theoretically, make money from being arrested for simply going along with state mmj laws. This is a egregious violation of the civil rights act; both federally and locally. I don't foresee doj adopting AZ's mmj program as a national platform because it would open up the feds to big giant class action law suit that even the Johnny Cochran couldn't ignore. Here's the AZDHS link. You'll find the law text and the latest revised set of rules for az mmj. http://www.azdhs.gov/medicalmarijuana/index.htm

Plus every ten pharmacies that exist they will licence one dispensary. I can't wait to see the patient backlash to dispensaries open up. The way the media portrays it; AZ is evil for not letting dispensaries in and all the sick people are "suffering" because Jan Brewer wouldn't enforce the law the people voted for. It would be something to see patients protest a dispensary that opens. Shoot, I'd half consider filing civil suit against any dispensary that opens up.

chazbolin said:

So unless there is a fix what sane business person would invest in such a house of cards?

Click to expand...

There will be many willing to roll the dice. Less than before, but still enough to make the 25-mile rule a persistent nuisance.

5 Mile Rule case has been dismissed... the documents will be posted later on facebook's No 25 Mile Rule page.

thank you all



But, we're not done yet....

chazbolin said:

Then knowing the feds are going to shut them down why would any sane business person participate in this scheme? Just to apply you have to have $150K liquid and traceable to legitimate business enterprises for 30 day pre and post application. $5K just to apply and you only can back up to $4K if you don't qualify. Or something along those lines.

I think the fix is in with the fed and AZ working together on this. In fact the federal judge that threw the May 2011 case AZ vs DOJ where AZ sought guidance in implementing the AMMA distribution system as to whether or not state employees would be aiding and abetting distribution of a controlled substance by simply granting licenses to the dispensaries. This would be a reasonable request for clarity that was thrown out by the federal judge on the grounds it never rose to judicial review and that the employees were never in jeopardy from federal enforcement activity.

So unless there is a fix what sane business person would invest in such a house of cards?

Click to expand...

Good question...

MurshDawg said:

Chaz, You very much may be right about feds and state colluding to violate personal civil rights at the bequest of a brand new multi-billion dollar industry. To answer your question as to why any sane business person would get into to this gig; you should look up Allan Sobol. People like him (a stark majority of all the mmj investors) see how much reward there is for the risk. Even if they were to get popped, most that would happen is a criminal seizure of assets in lieu of prosecution or coupled with a white collar slap on the wrist. Now a days it seems that if you have enough resources to access traditional media; one could, theoretically, make money from being arrested for simply going along with state mmj laws. This is a egregious violation of the civil rights act; both federally and locally. I don't foresee doj adopting AZ's mmj program as a national platform because it would open up the feds to big giant class action law suit that even the Johnny Cochran couldn't ignore. Here's the AZDHS link. You'll find the law text and the latest revised set of rules for az mmj. http://www.azdhs.gov/medicalmarijuana/index.htm

Plus every ten pharmacies that exist they will licence one dispensary. I can't wait to see the patient backlash to dispensaries open up. The way the media portrays it; AZ is evil for not letting dispensaries in and all the sick people are "suffering" because Jan Brewer wouldn't enforce the law the people voted for. It would be something to see patients protest a dispensary that opens. Shoot, I'd half consider filing civil suit against any dispensary that opens up.

Click to expand...

Anyone who believe the AMMA allows the sales of marijuana is the dissolution of their endeavor. I am eager to see dispensaries open in AZ, simply to see the AMMA tap its roots in the soil of AZ.
What dispensary will not stand with its patients and their rights? Answer- The dispensary that has a protest group outside of their build.

Arizona Constitution Article 27 Section 2
To preserve the freedom of Arizonans to provide for their health care: 1. A law or rule shall not compel, directly or indirectly, any person, employer or health care provider to participate in any health care system.
2. A person or employer may pay directly for lawful health care services and shall not be required to pay penalties or fines for paying directly for lawful health care services. A health care provider may accept direct payment for lawful health care services and shall not be required to pay penalties or fines for accepting direct payment from a person or employer for lawful health care services.
B. Subject to reasonable and necessary rules that do not substantially limit a person's options, the purchase or sale of health insurance in private health care systems shall not be prohibited by law or rule.
C. This section does not:
1. Affect which health care services a health care provider or hospital is required to perform or provide.
2. Affect which health care services are permitted by law.
3. Prohibit care provided pursuant to article XVIII, section 8 of this constitution or any statutes enacted by the legislature relating to worker's compensation.
4. Affect laws or rules in effect as of January 1, 2009.
5. Affect the terms or conditions of any health care system to the extent that those terms and conditions do not have the effect of punishing a person or employer for paying directly for lawful health care services or a health care provider or hospital for accepting direct payment from a person or employer for lawful health care services.
D. For the purposes of this section:
1. "Compel" includes penalties or fines.
2. "Direct payment or pay directly" means payment for lawful health care services without a public or private third party, not including an employer, paying for any portion of the service.
3. "Health care system" means any public or private entity whose function or purpose is the management of, processing of, enrollment of individuals for or payment for, in full or in part, health care services or health care data or health care information for its participants.
4. "Lawful health care services" means any health-related service or treatment to the extent that the service or treatment is permitted or not prohibited by law or regulation that may be provided by persons or businesses otherwise permitted to offer such services.
5. "Penalties or fines" means any civil or criminal penalty or fine, tax, salary or wage withholding or surcharge or any named fee with a similar effect established by law or rule by a government established, created or controlled agency that is used to punish or discourage the exercise of rights protected under this section.

Bill Hayes said:

5 Mile Rule case has been dismissed... the documents will be posted later on facebook's No 25 Mile Rule page.

thank you all


But, we're not done yet....

Click to expand...

Glad you stand for Us patients in AZ.

we here in kern county dont have it that bad at all i guess. we are being threatened with a 1 mile radious from schools churches daycares. ect.

doobered said:

we here in kern county dont have it that bad at all i guess. we are being threatened with a 1 mile radious from schools churches daycares. ect.

Click to expand...

are you that dumb? thats irrelevant..

While a lot of Humbles rules can be challenged because they are outside the law we voted on. In order to change the law as voted by the people would require another vote by the people.

Well, sounds like its time to use the 2nd way to skin the cat: if the feds won't hear the case, because the outcome is a foregone conclusion (25 mile clause is a gross violation of equal protection) due to "its illegal federally anyway" then we use the feds: The dispensaries in the metro area will have thousands of customers, and be big money targets for the DEA. Report them. Let the DEA shut them down. The DEA loves to SEIZE property. We could at least get the dispensary owners on our side this way.

doobered said:

we here in kern county dont have it that bad at all i guess. we are being threatened with a 1 mile radious from schools churches daycares. ect.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I think you don't understand, actually. The entire city of Phoenix, every cultivator who is currently licensed, is going to lose their rights because *one* single dispensary is opening on the far outskirts of a distant suburb. Totally different situation from anything you have ever experienced in California, and total devastation for patients.

UnderBelly said:

Yeah, I think you don't understand, actually. The entire city of Phoenix, every cultivator who is currently licensed, is going to lose their rights because *one* single dispensary is opening on the far outskirts of a distant suburb. Totally different situation from anything you have ever experienced in California, and total devastation for patients.

Click to expand...

When their card expires...

anymore lawsuits pending..

HB DC said:

When their card expires...

Click to expand...

I want Jan Brewer to personally reimburse me for my grow room equipment if I lose my right to use it.