Mycorrhizal fungi applications for cannabis - the caveats
- Thread starter Uncle Ben
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Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
madcatter
Active Member
I have used one of the myco products to great success... I grow in 5 gal dirt pots and from transplant to first 2 waterings in 5 gallon stage I add some myco juice... and I grow amzingly healthy plants.... I went from 1 inch pots to root bound in 3 gallon pots in 10 days.... the stuff works in my set up...
edisonzmedicine
New Member
Growers are constantly creating artificial environments for their cannabis to thrive in. In natural settings there exists certain ecological systems which took centuries to evolve. A forest floor has a diversity of insects, beneficial fungi and bacterium which work in unison for mineralization of leaf matter back into the NPK needed for the next growing season. Trees absorb nitrogen during most of the growing season in order to re-foliate in the spring. Neighborhood lawns are not a tree's natural environment, nor is a closet a natural environment for cannabis. If we analyzed the soils of the Hindu Kush mountains, and other regions where Afghanica phenotypes are grown, this would give us correct data about the specific fungi and bacterium which exist in the Indica's natural environment. The equatorial soils are home to many Sativa strains, and surely there exists a unique environment where these plants have been propagated for centuries. This thread has been based on a very limed Endomycorrhizal and Ectomycorrizhal fungi which has been researched and developed for completely different applications than our. All the fungi listed in these threads were formulated for growing fruits and vegetables. Cannabis is like no other plant ordinary botanists are accustomed to working with. I believe in beneficial fungi; however, the fungal strains that will work best for growing pot are most likely to be found where the ancient landraces are growing. Unless someone travels the world and collects soil samples, does the lab work and identifies the microbes associated with the landrace parentage our hybrids were generated from, most contenders will continue to be like dogs chasing their tales. I'm going to give Mycogrow a try, and maybe grow some Portabellas as well!
snew
Well-Known Member
Marijuana as we know it, has been cultivated for thousands of years in those mountains. They've been dumping shit in that soil for the same thousands of years. What it reflects is that Afghan Al found that alpaca shit in the compost real seamed to produce bigger buds but Avocados may not do well or vice versa. So the biology of that soil reflects that cultivation effort pf those farmers. Chances are most of those farms have had over use of so many chemical fertilizers and pesticides use that they reflect nothing of what it did 100 years ago. This has been a problem with farms in 3rd world countries throughout the world.
spl1
Well-Known Member
You know I have done controls with and with out the use of fungi.First off, for those of you who have followed my rants over the years, you know how much I disdain "snake oils" aka "rocket fuels" and the shysters that push them. I do keep an open mind and will take the plunge from time to time but so far I feel I've wasted my money. IOW, if it sounds too good to be true, then it usually is. I consider most of the organic market push to be a big racket based on idealogical fervor and greed. I attended a professional workshop on the use of non-conventional soil additives where such products were applied in field studies with all kinds of crops throughout the U.S. and all products tested (about 10) were found to have no beneficial affect on crop production. Having said that, this raises the question, when can some of these "snake oils" be of benefit to the cannabis gardener? Which brings me to my latest experiment.......
I recently applied 30 gallons of a MycoApply soluble product to alot of plant material, not cannabis, but all the same as I applied it to very similiar plants regarding their botanical makeup, growth habits, etc. I will be able to judge the results by the end of this growing season as a control group was set aside with no treatment.
There are quite a few such products containing either or both endo (hyphae within the roots) and ecto (hyphae on the roots) type species, I chose what is considered the most complete and best product in the industry for broad spectrum use - trees, conifers, grapevines, veggies, roses, potted plants, etc. (Not all fungi species will work under all circumstances.... soil conditions, temps, etc.) This brand is also the cheapest and is regulated. A long conversation with a company tech confirmed that indeed their product is bonafide. Of course an electron microscope would come in handy for a quick and easy check.For about $45 (which included shipping) I am able to make up to 200 gallons of an active soil drench. I used a product called Soluble MaXX which contains:
9 Species Endo (31,200 prop/lb)
11 Species Ecto (1.5 billion prop/lb)
2 Species Trichoderma, a Biostimulant Package and Beneficial Bacteria
The use of this product is best when you're using soil-less potting mixes as mixes rich in compost will likely not see any real world benefit. Now here is the rub - this fungi comes dormant with a carrier and takes time to become active, work up an active colony in the root zone. Is it active by the time you harvest, or a week after application while your plants are in the juvenile stage?
If you wish to experiment with such products it is imperative that you also have a control group and take careful notes, which no one seems to want to do, instead seeing what they want or expect to see. Upon harvest it would be wise to inspect the root system to see if a fungi colony did indeed develop. The grower is still subject to good plant practices so your mileage will vary.
I take the approach that gardening is all about tweaks, the use of bonafide products might be worth experimenting with, then again you might be throwing good money after bad. Hoo nose?
Good luck,
UB
Glomus:
This species are entirely asexual. Spores are produced at the tips of hyphae either within the host root or outside the root in the soil. Thought to be chlamydospores, these spores germinate and the germination tube that is produced grows through the soil until it comes into contact with roots. The fungus then penetrates the root and grows between root cells, or it may penetrate the cell wall and grow within root cells. Inside the root, the fungus forms arbuscules, which are highly branched hyphal structures that serve as sites of nutrient exchange with the plant. Arbuscules are formed within plant cell walls but are surrounded by an invaginated cell membrane, so remain within the apoplast. The fungus may also form vesicles, swollen structures which are thought to function as food storage organs.
Out of the species of Glomus there are a few that do well in both soil and hydroponics. These fungi are smaller than 220 microns in size so they will have more per pound and more spores mean more inoculation of the roots both in water and soil.
Glomus intraradices, Glomus mosseae, Glomus aggregatum, Glomus etunicatum
Trichoderma:
Is a fungus that is also used as a fungicide. It is used for foliar application, seed treatment and soil treatment for suppression of various disease causing fungal pathogens. It is also used for manufacturing enzymes to break down organic matter into use full IONs.
Rhizopogon:
Is a genus of hypogeous Basidiomycetes. Recent micromorphological and molecular phylogenetic study has established that Rhizopogon is a member of the Boletales, closely related to Suillus.[1] All species of Rhizopogon are ectomycorrhizal and are thought to play an important role in the ecology of coniferous forests.
Pisolithus Tinctoruis:
Is a cheap filler of fungi that is mostly used for Coniferous and Oak trees.
Rhizopogon and Pisolithus family are useless in growing MJ. Just cheap filler. It has no effect at all on MJ. This is after a 2 year study that I have done on over 30,000 MJ plants and many strains.
Most soil's produced for retail sales in the USA are sterilized in a steam oven killing most fungi and most of the living bacteria. That why most organics growers compost there own soil and do not buy over the counter soils. Some companies add this back into the soil but at a very low rate to save in cost and be able to claim it on the bags label.
Not all fungi works with MJ. The company that manufactures MycroApply also manufactures 80% of the markets fungi in the USA. MycroApply does not make the Fungi they just market it under a few names like Great White, Plant success. Here is a picture of a fungi colony on a root system, In this picture we see the big balls in the root with the cell walls which are the spores, the fine spiderweb bushes are vesicles and the football shaped cell is a storage vesicle. You can also see some filaments of the mycorrhizal association growing outside the root.
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
Good on ya!
Say what? Where did you grow 30K cannabis plants?
Don't know about the steam drill, do know that bagged products are too damn expensive! If the small apartment dweller can't compost, he can get an old ice chest, punch holes in the bottom of it for drainage and aeration, and start a small worm farm.
Couple of weeks ago I rented a 4.5 cu. yd. dump trailer and hauled horse manure/green matter, twas steaming and black as we loaded it, and then filled up my pickup bed with compost from a landscaper friend that is strictly a pure organic grower. His compost consists of whatever the city picks up and hauls to his farm - leaves, grass clippings, tree chippings from mainly oaks, etc. He mixes the green matter with horse manure for the N. I'm talking huge 200' long windrows watered with drip pipe and turned with a 12' wide mixer driven by a 270 HP Cummings.
Needless to say, I'm set.
Not that it needed it, but I applied a 5 gallon drench with MycoApply added to a new compost pile I made of various stuff, rate of 1 tsp/gallon, and an ammonium sulfate drench as an Aggie analysis showed it real low in N, plus I wanted to drop the pH a bit, reason for choosing the sulfate form of ammonium. Stuff should grow about anything!
Another thing folks need to watch out for is herbicide residues that get composted in green matter but don't decay. Picloram, a long term residual broad leaf herbicide and widely used on grazing land, is notorious for sticking around for too long in the soil to which is was sprayed. If you apply compost made from grazing livestock that have been feeding on such treated fields, and your plants look stunted, yellowed, then suspect herbicide residues (low N, bad watering aside). IOW, know your source of green matter.
UB
spl1
Well-Known Member
I am in charge of a large dispensary grow op in Colorado we have four 6,000sq ft locations that we grow out of. each one is basically 2 to 3 weeks apart from each other, with 40 strains at each location. That way we never run out of product.
Nice I like to compost my own for my outdoor landscape around my place, so much cheaper and enjoyable in the end.Don't know about the steam drill, do know that bagged products are too damn expensive! If the small apartment dweller can't compost, he can get an old ice chest, punch holes in the bottom of it for drainage and aeration, and start a small worm farm.
Couple of weeks ago I rented a 4.5 cu. yd. dump trailer and hauled horse manure/green matter, twas steaming and black as we loaded it, and then filled up my pickup bed with compost from a landscaper friend that is strictly a pure organic grower. His compost consists of whatever the city picks up and hauls to his farm - leaves, grass clippings, tree chippings from mainly oaks, etc. He mixes the green matter with horse manure for the N. I'm talking huge 200' long windrows watered with drip pipe and turned with a 12' wide mixer driven by a 270 HP Cummings.
Needless to say, I'm set.
That would do it for sure.
I don't like to use to much green matter in my compost piles, I personally like it field dried before I add any cow or horse manure. That just me.
Another thing folks need to watch out for is herbicide residues that get composted in green matter but don't decay. Picloram, a long term residual broad leaf herbicide and widely used on grazing land, is notorious for sticking around for too long in the soil to which is was sprayed. If you apply compost made from grazing livestock that have been feeding on such treated fields, and your plants look stunted, yellowed, then suspect herbicide residues (low N, bad watering aside). IOW, know your source of green matter.
UB
Peace Spl1
I hope I'm not mistaken, but you are currently running a test? (with/without mycorrizal fungi).
You seem very skeptical to mycorrhizal fungi, which is not a bad thing. Just keep that in mind so you don't overlook any positive effects.
As long as you have a scientific mindset (open), I look forward to your conclusion.
My guess is that since you are so experienced in growing, having dialed in your setup perfectly, the result will be similar to your previous harvest, and any positive effect from myco's will be minimal.
Anyway, my point with this post:
As you know, there is a LOT of new growers out there, and their setup is not 100% perfect, and REGULARLY their plants suffers due to several issues - as you can see every day on the sick-plants forum.
So a product like mycorrizal fungi, which help the plants even though the grower is not providing everything they need, will certainly be helpful. In this case, the myco's should make the plant tolerate less-than-perfect conditions better - therefore not a waste of money.
Of course, it all depends on the claim that myco's don't work for short-lived plants like Marijuana (which I find hard to believe).
spl1
Well-Known Member
He is running a test on regular plants in is garden
I don't know who is saying that, I just had 3000 pounds mixed up that we have been testing for 2 years on MMJ. It works great, but very few Endo's can pass a #70 screen for high psi aero jets. Yes it is 3000 pounds for this next 6 month run of plants.
Wolverine97
Well-Known Member
UB;
Marijuana does not benefit at all from ecto species of Myco's, only the endo species is of any real value to pot cultivators. Ecto's are primarily for evergreens, berrrys, and other species. I have performed fairly well controlled comparison's both with, and without the addition of beneficial's including trichoderma species, and the root growth is night and day different when using a an organically modified soil-less mix.
One new product I'm really looking into is Azos, from Xtreme Gardening. They have some pretty bold claims (as usual), but I think it's worth further investigation and reading.
coolupdscene
Member
Uncle Ben your threads are the shit and i use them all the time but never have been able to get a response and i have a really important question: a few days ago a buddy of mine gave me a super lemon haze that was in all hydroton...i dont do that so i transplanted it into straight soil fox farm happy frog with mycorrihaze. only thing was. the roots were coming out of the bottom of the hydroton containers holes so when i transplantd i had to slice them they were all tangled up and looked like dreadlocks, so i sliced them so i could pull them through the containers bottom holes once i emptied all of the hydroton out. well since then in the soil it seems to not be growing at all and it wont "stand up" like im so used to with fast growing plants...what do you think is the problem? and also this transplant was over a week ago and the plant is just stagnant except for a few leaves that died and were somewhat green but super dry and life less, there wasnts even ne water bleeding from the leafs stem when i pulled it off it almost seemed hollowed out...ne help please, i wont have a plant die in my garden
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
I bought an all-in-one product so I don't miss any plant material which includes trees, fruits, berries, grapes, veggies, pot, etc........ If you really want to get serious with this stuff, talk to a pro. Dr. Mark McFarland with TX A&M is your man. I attended a seminar where he gave a talk about the use of unconventional additives.
Could be any one of a dozen cultural issues - lighting, root rot, food, but most likely you butchered the root system such that it's suffering from a lack of cell turgor pressure, moisture stress. All depends on how you handled the plant, what you transplanted in, how you transplanted. I can only guess with such limited info and no pix.
UB
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
No
I thought I mentioned the positive effects on page one including a link to a real scientific experiment on grapes with electron mike photos.
Bottom line is, if you have a good organic soil, you don't need any additives. If you go soil-less or hydro, then you need the 16 essential elements. It's not necessarily about microbes, this is about plant nutrition. All the goodies are already there - fungi, bacteria, fulvic/humic acids, your mother's favorite microbe cache. A couple of weeks ago I rented a 4 1/2 cu. yd. dump trailer and hauled in tons of washed builder's sand and two loads of organics - one was horse manure with stable hay that had been composting naturally for years (20' high pile) and another from my eco-wacky friend who does commercial composting using a 12' wide windrow turner driven by a 270HP Cummings. This aint crap stuff you get out of an Advanced Shysters bottle, it is the real thing. I'm not some kid buying the label, I'm sourcing the nutritional value of a product. Recently I received a report back from the bio-solids testing lab of TX A&M on my friend's compost and it's about as perfect regarding NPK and the micros as can be, and it should be. He gets his green material free from the city, so the base material consists of leaves, grass clippings, twigs, chipped trees and then adds horse manure to the final mix to feed the microbes their needed N. There you have it, the perfect organic addition at a very cheap price. Horse compost was free, friend's compost charge was $25 for 1.5 cu. yds. or a pickup load. NPK=14-5-10
BTW, I'm always "dialing in".
Maybe, maybe not. I don't have an answer to how long it takes for the goodies to come out of dormancy and populate. I know it's not a waste of time with a perennial, just might be with an annual such as cannabis. So, why not use good compost which already has a active colony of microbes? I can only assume that your end result, timing, is dependent on factors such as soil temps, moisture levels, salts, etc. IOW, find out the conditions that are favorable for myco pops to explode and then go from there. I'm a caveat mofo.
I report, you decide,
Uncle Ben
.
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Wolverine97
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the info, I'll definitely check him out. I'm attending a master gardeners course locally this spring, we'll see how that goes.
I used to buy into all of the hyped up super expensive products, but the last few years I've been creating my own blends to use on my test plants. I grow some of my stuff organically, some with chemmy ferts, but I've been researching the hell out of different benny's and their effects. If you aren't using it already, I'd highly recommend adding some trichoderma species as a soil innoculant in addition to the myc's. They are parasitic in nature, and have a much broader effect than myc's alone. Xtreme Gardening makes good beneficial's, and they have a product called Azos (totally unique, if it works) that I'm really looking into.
dannyboy602
Well-Known Member
A controled study is a good idea, but who has time? I have thirty years as a professional gardener and know MR is important as it forms a symbiotic relationship with the plant, taking in sugars for it's own sustinance and increasing surface area for plant root systems to absorb nutrients that it would otherwise not have access to . This is done through a network of mycelium growth, an explosive and fast growing mat like system of root hair like material.
So as to your question of how fast does it contribute to rate of growth and overall plant health I'd say pretty darn fast.
I'd also like to add this tidbit which is easy enough to access through wikipedia
This mutualistic association provides the fungus with relatively constant and direct access to carbohydrates, such as glucose and sucrose supplied by the plant.[4] The carbohydrates are translocated from their source (usually leaves) to root tissue and on to fungal partners. In return, the plant gains the benefits of the mycelium's higher absorptive capacity for water and mineral nutrients (due to comparatively large surface area of mycelium:root ratio), thus improving the plant's mineral absorption capabilities.[5]
Plant roots alone may be incapable of taking up phosphate ions that are demineralized, for example, in soils with a basic pH. The mycelium of the mycorrhizal fungus can, however, access these phosphorus sources, and make them available
to the plants they colonize.[6]
I'm starting a grow of BC God Bud and am including pix. The only nutes were inherent in the mix from a company
called ROOTS ORGANIC.
I'm also using two tablespoond Epsom Salts in to one gallon of water which seems to be having a steroid like effect. Peace
The plants were germed on Jan 15 and all pix were taken Feb 12, 2011
So as to your question of how fast does it contribute to rate of growth and overall plant health I'd say pretty darn fast.
I'd also like to add this tidbit which is easy enough to access through wikipedia
This mutualistic association provides the fungus with relatively constant and direct access to carbohydrates, such as glucose and sucrose supplied by the plant.[4] The carbohydrates are translocated from their source (usually leaves) to root tissue and on to fungal partners. In return, the plant gains the benefits of the mycelium's higher absorptive capacity for water and mineral nutrients (due to comparatively large surface area of mycelium:root ratio), thus improving the plant's mineral absorption capabilities.[5]
Plant roots alone may be incapable of taking up phosphate ions that are demineralized, for example, in soils with a basic pH. The mycelium of the mycorrhizal fungus can, however, access these phosphorus sources, and make them available
to the plants they colonize.[6]I'm starting a grow of BC God Bud and am including pix. The only nutes were inherent in the mix from a company
called ROOTS ORGANIC.I'm also using two tablespoond Epsom Salts in to one gallon of water which seems to be having a steroid like effect. Peace
The plants were germed on Jan 15 and all pix were taken Feb 12, 2011
coolupdscene
Member
Ok, so when i transplanted i just hld the plant while i tipped the pot on its side and let the hydroton fallout. Then put a small amount of soil in a pot that is 2 gallons larger than it was in b4. Next i held the plant with the roots dangling in the pot with soil on the bottom so that the bottom of the plants roots were just touching the bottom layer of soil. then i just filled up the pot with soil as i held the plant and filled the pot with soil until the roots were covered....but like i said, when the plant was still in it hydroton the roots were coming out of the bottom drain holes of the pot and tangling up in a web so i had to slice the roots vertically so they formed small clusters that i could pulll through the drain holes on the pot.
rjl
Member
UB,
I am intrigued by this thread and am going to start a program with careful documentation using Arbustular Mycorrhizal fungus. DIEHARD™ Root Reviver™, from Forestry Suppliers, Inc.
sells this this product which is formulated as a preparation to inoculate the roots of tree and shrubs with live beneficial mycorrhizal fungi when planting. It contains highly selected endo and ectomycorrhizae fungi that will quickly colonize the roots of new transplants to provide the best possible condition for the roots to grow and extract from the root zone water and nutrients. The fungi is combined with humic acids, Trichoderma, biostimulants, beneficial bacteria, soluble sea kelp, yucca plant extracts, amino acids, and vitamins to promote rapid root development. To reduce transplant stress and watering maintenance, for convenience, consistency, and to reduce waste, the product is packaged in pre-measured labeled bags and is also available in bulk.
Your comment in the first post “The use of this product is best when you're using soil-less potting mixes as mixes rich in compost will likely not see any real world benefit.” Indicates that one may use the following from your recipe:
a good organic soil, washed builder's sand, organic’s, horse manure and eco-wacky friend’s compost (he gets his green material free from the city, so the base material consists of leaves, grass clippings, twigs, chipped trees and then adds horse manure to the final mix). can I assume that this mixture would be correct for a “soil-less” potting mix? I am trying to grasp the concept of myco’s and how they live, and feed. I do know that they have a symbiotic relationship with the host roots, which I assume will need feeding at some point.
I am intrigued by this thread and am going to start a program with careful documentation using Arbustular Mycorrhizal fungus. DIEHARD™ Root Reviver™, from Forestry Suppliers, Inc.
sells this this product which is formulated as a preparation to inoculate the roots of tree and shrubs with live beneficial mycorrhizal fungi when planting. It contains highly selected endo and ectomycorrhizae fungi that will quickly colonize the roots of new transplants to provide the best possible condition for the roots to grow and extract from the root zone water and nutrients. The fungi is combined with humic acids, Trichoderma, biostimulants, beneficial bacteria, soluble sea kelp, yucca plant extracts, amino acids, and vitamins to promote rapid root development. To reduce transplant stress and watering maintenance, for convenience, consistency, and to reduce waste, the product is packaged in pre-measured labeled bags and is also available in bulk.
Your comment in the first post “The use of this product is best when you're using soil-less potting mixes as mixes rich in compost will likely not see any real world benefit.” Indicates that one may use the following from your recipe:
a good organic soil, washed builder's sand, organic’s, horse manure and eco-wacky friend’s compost (he gets his green material free from the city, so the base material consists of leaves, grass clippings, twigs, chipped trees and then adds horse manure to the final mix). can I assume that this mixture would be correct for a “soil-less” potting mix? I am trying to grasp the concept of myco’s and how they live, and feed. I do know that they have a symbiotic relationship with the host roots, which I assume will need feeding at some point.