My Quest to truly understand

I went to my hydro shop the other day, and just wandered around looking at all of the nutrients, additives, hormones, vitamins, minerals, ect. I got a little lost in all of it, and I guess I finally realized that I don't really know what it's all about. I understand the basic NPK, as well as the need for trace minerals, water, oxygen and CO2, but when it comes to additive upon additive, I get lost. So I asked the worker to walk me through some of it, and after about a 30 min conversation, I realized that he really doesn't understand much more than I do.

So I decided to begin a quest to really understand exactly what the plant needs, in what portions, at what times, and how to give it to them. There is alot of money in those additives, microbes, and what not. Instead of purchasing them, and seeing if they work, I would really like to understand how, why, or if the theory is there at all.

I understand that this is an entire college major, but I was wondering if someone can point me in the right direction. Either a website, or a book would be fantastic.

I have about 5 years of growing experience, but I figured it was about time to do the research, and get a better understanding of what's going on. Can anyone help me in my quest?

No one can even point me in the right direction?

The only books I have been able to find are 'hydro for idiot' books that teach me nothing but the basics, and complex organic chemistry books that I can't understand. Where is the stuff in the middle? Anyone?

I asked this very question last year with the same results,it seems its a mystery.

I'll assume that you made no headway in the past year panhead?

Advanced Hydroponic Nutrients

see how there is 2 different types of nutrients on that page, grow and bloom.
you need grow for veg and bloom for flowering(budding) that's about the basics of it. they have mixing instructions on them per gallon.

i think there is many posts here about hydroponics in this section of the site.., it should have peoples own personal nutrient schedules and links to grow logs for examples. you might have to do some searches within the site..

Thanks for the help Cannabox, but perhaps I wasn't too clear.

I have five years of growing experience, almost all of it with hydroponics. I've tried ebb and flow, aeroponics, dwc, and hempy buckets. Recently I've been working with coco. I've actually had alot of success too. I understand the need for grow and bloom, as well as what the basics of what the plant needs are, and the basic bloom additives.

Where I get lost is with the laundry list of additives. Hydgrozyme, synzime, B vitamins, ect. To use one (fairly unpopular) product line, AN has Bud Blood, Big Bud, Overdrive, Wet Betty, Barricade, B52, Humic Acid, fulvic acid, Colossal Big Bud, seaweed extract, kelp extract, voodoo juice, scorpion juice, parahana, tirantula, sweet leaf, carboload, and hammerhead, to name a few.

Not that AN is different from the rest, they just have more names for their stuff. Humbolt has Myan Microzyme, Mico Madness, Big Up, Sea Mag, Roots, Humic, prozime, honey, ect. Fox Farm does the same thing, along with all of the rest of them.

But the basics that I know, is that the plants need higher N in vegetative, and higher P and K during flowering. So why are there 45 different flowering additives? They all can't be providing the plant with 45 different ways to introduce P and K to the plants. How exactly do all of them affect the plants cycle? This is what I don't understand. I would like to know the science behind it, so I can figure out what I need, and what I want, not the hype or someone's word telling me it works. I want to know why.

Is it a little clearer what I'm looking for now?

specialkayme said:

I'll assume that you made no headway in the past year panhead?

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Ive made lots of headway but as for getting somebody more experienced than me to spell it all out in one easy to understand manual type writing ive been unsuccessfull.

Yeah, I feel that's what I really need. The only information that I can find on what a plant needs is from a company selling me something. And even at that, it's less of an explanation of what the plant needs, and more of a justification to buy their products. It's easy to pick up a bottle of senzym, read the label to me, and tell me that a plant needs microbes, or whatever, but it's an entirely different thing to tell me what a plant needs, when, and how, and let me figure out how to give it to them, through what products, and how.

Well let me know if you make anyway on that ,its a little confusing to me

I'm trying to find a book, as I said above. Something in between a heavy science text book that I can't understand, and one of the hundreds of 'hydro for retard' books that are on the shelves. But for right now I guess if no one can explain any of this to me, maybe someone can tell me if I read up on GENERAL plant nutrition, if I'll be able to get out of it what I need to apply to this SPECIFIC plant. Or if it's just going to screw me up, because the pot plant is so different and has such different needs. I don't think so, being that I feed my pepper plants the same nutrient solutions that I feed my other plants, basically because I'm too lazy to make a different solution, but I'm not sure. Anyone?

The closest book I can find is this: Amazon.com: Plant Nutrition Manual: J.Benton, Jr. Jones: Books It seems to give a basic description of all of the essential elements, as well as how to use them, and in what proportion benefits 143 different plants. Not really exactly what I was looking for, but I think it might be a start. Now if only I can find a book that has all of this, plus microbes, beneficial bacteria, vitamins, sugars, and carbohydrates. What do you guys think, at least a good step in the right direction?

I guess what we really need is a botanist. Anyone know one on here? Like, an official one, not an amateur or hobbyist (no offense).

Yea special i hear you.... I think that it all begins with bacteria growth during seedling stage which continues thruout the plants life and that goes hand in hand with the breakdown of nutrints and the way plants use them....But im like u.... just getting a grasp....check out this link... Hydro stores are selling the best nuts and bacterias for all stages of growth guess it comes down to choosing which ones during each stage of growth...lol guess they are already doing it for us....

Soil Bacteria | NRCS SQ

I found this:
http://www.htgsupply.com/images/articles/HTGSupply-Nutrient-Article-July-2008.pdf
Which helps, not quite there yet, just figured I'd keep everyone in touch with the latest of what I found.

Unfortunatly, this about the only way you can get the information. And nobody agrees on anything either...LOL!

Is HPS better than MH or CFL....24/7 vs 18/6 light schedule......you name it and there are at least a thousand and one arguments to both sides of the fence....amazing actually....

I use the net mostly and these grow journals are extremly helpful for gathering plant inforamtion and what works well with what......other than that, keep hammering away just like your doing link by link...if you have specific questions then ask them here on this site and you will get a bunch of answers!

Good Luck!

What I hear you asking about is not what the plant needs and why, but rather how do we provide it in hydro. Many biological processes happen in soil naturally, and those may be lacking in hydro systems, so we try to help that with some additives.

The best answer I've seen was posted by Earl, you can find it here.

HTH

potroast said:

What I hear you asking about is not what the plant needs and why, but rather how do we provide it in hydro. Many biological processes happen in soil naturally, and those may be lacking in hydro systems, so we try to help that with some additives.

The best answer I've seen was posted by Earl, you can find it here.

HTH

Click to expand...

Awesome post potroast. That helped alot.

So I figured I'd give you guys a heads up with what I have so far. As far as importance of what the plant needs, this is what I have, starting with most important and running to least important:

1. Light
2. Air - Macronutrients Carbon and Oxygen (derived from CO2)
3. Water - With or without Hydrogen Peroxide - Macronutrients (derived from H2O or H2O2)
4. Temperature
5. Grow/Bloom - NPK (essentially your basic nutrients) - Grow = higher N number, Transition between = switch from high N to high K, Bloom = low N, higher K in ratio
6. Micro - (S, Mg, Ca, Fe, Mn, Co, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Cl) Either in Grow/Bloom or by itself
7. Hormones (I use Root Juice, but take your choice)
8. Humic Acid (again, Root Juice contains some, but you can add it directly)
9. Fulvic Acid
10. Enzymes
11. Bud and Bloom Enhancers (what it seems to be the most overhyped product on the shelves)
12. Silicates
13. Phospholipid Tech
14. Beneficial Bacteria/Fungi

If you want further explanations of what those items are, take a look at pot roasts link above. Would you guys agree with the order of the list? Or would you say I should alter one of the items above?

Personally, I have satisfied #'s 1 through 8 and number 11. Specifically, I use a 400 watt hps, Sensi Grow, Sensi Bloom, Root Juice, Big Bud, Overdrive, and molasses.

But I don't think that the list is complete quite yet. What I really don't understand are these:
15. Flavor enhancers (Humbolt's Honey, Sweet Leaf, Sweet, ect)
16. Vitamins (Specifically B)
17. Amino Acids
18. Carbohydrates (Carboload, Molasses, ect)

I have yet to find out exactly how important these are, or where they play a role in the list above. Any thoughts?

Number 5 and 6 are combined in most hydro nutrients, what we call basic salts, or just hydro nutes.

Root Juice is probably like most Thrive products, contains vitamins (mostly B), hormones, and auxins, and is great for rooting and veg growth, and should be stopped when flowers show.

Fulvic Acid can be used as a replacement for pH Down (phosphoric acid) and it is a humic, so I don't think you need to use Humic Acid, too.

Bloom Enhancers, aka PK Boosters, should be used in the second half of flowering.

Silicates don't need to be added each res, every other res is enough.

You may not want the molasses, especially if you use a commercial Flavor Enhancer. They are based on cane sugar and citric acid, and some other stuff.

What you should check out is kelp products. Seaweed is wonderful stuff, and has a lot of micro nutrients that help secondary metabolic processes. There are several kelp products, they're the black syrup that smells bad, so they must be good! Recently kelp additives like GH's Floralicious Plus have other ingredients like beneficial bacteria in them too.

HTH