Muriate of Potash (potassium chloride) - NPK 0-0-60

Rasta Roy

Well-Known Member
If the plant regulates P uptake.

Why do we see so many P tox plants on this site?
I find it easy to overdo P, very easy.

I see them in organic too. Example: The Rev's soil is too high in P and he then spikes it again in bloom.....Nasty mix.

In synthetic's Si helps regulate P but, I have yet to see a plant not cross the line when over feed P. Not to mention that soil plants take all the Si it needs from the soil.....

I find it harder to over do K.



I still, personally, avoid MPP.......I have an aversion to high P. I choose K sulfate for the extra S....2 birds with one stone.
The new soil just built. Is amended with H2MnO5S or Manganese sulfate in small quantity. It is balanced (closely) with Fe. The idea being that the Mn actually increases THC compound levels..... I did a thread on that. Tweeter gave info on Fe needs and soil ppm values in that..... We'll see how it goes
I think we had a miscommunication somewhere friend! Langbeinite was what I had mentioned, it contains no P! Just K, mag, and sulfur K2Mg2(SO4)3.
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
I think we had a miscommunication somewhere friend! Langbeinite was what I had mentioned, it contains no P! Just K, mag, and sulfur K2Mg2(SO4)3.
No-no! I was with ya Roy!
Twas a "just say'in" moment.....

I use FUL - HUMIX so I skip the Lang and prefer the k2SO4 for the S as a source for both...

We all do things differently, and yet, reach the same goals (or try)

:hug::mrgreen:
 

hillbill

Well-Known Member
With organics I prefer to have relatively small amounts of specific nutrients from several sources which I hope provide an ample solid supply over 2 or 3 months. I reuse my soil and currently run 20% or so in new mixes. Also ran about 80% used last winter with good results. I also add fewer mineral type amendments when reusing, especially at higher percentages.
 

Chunky Stool

Well-Known Member
If the plant regulates P uptake.

Why do we see so many P tox plants on this site?
I find it easy to overdo P, very easy.

I see them in organic too. Example: The Rev's soil is too high in P and he then spikes it again in bloom.....Nasty mix.

In synthetic's Si helps regulate P but, I have yet to see a plant not cross the line when over feed P. Not to mention that soil plants take all the Si it needs from the soil.....

I find it harder to over do K.



I still, personally, avoid MPP.......I have an aversion to high P. I choose K sulfate for the extra S....2 birds with one stone.
The new soil just built. Is amended with H2MnO5S or Manganese sulfate in small quantity. It is balanced (closely) with Fe. The idea being that the Mn actually increases THC compound levels..... I did a thread on that. Tweeter gave info on Fe needs and soil ppm values in that..... We'll see how it goes
Yes, the plant regulates organic P uptake. Should I post Harley's video again?
I'd be willing to bet the overdoses you've see are from adding soluble P.
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Yes, the plant regulates organic P uptake. Should I post Harley's video again?
I'd be willing to bet the overdoses you've see are from adding soluble P.
True, that's the bulk of what you see around here

Yet, I saw my neighbor use REV's SS and he had early yellowing and high P problems....High bone meal use....I've seen high P problems from plenty of overage applications of "organic" forms of P........ Add to much and have a problem - period!

As far as internet Harley? He's missing something... a brain maybe?

The plant can only regulate so much.....fact. As an organic farmer. I have to be careful on how much P content I lay down....

WSU - pdf - read it!

https://puyallup.wsu.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/403/2015/03/bonemeal.pdf

Bonemeal is not a soluble form of P.......

As for Mpp = Monopotassium phosphate, MKP KH2PO4, is a soluble salt of potassium! So that's worse!


Other reading of direct interest.
Links 1 and 3 are full papers and they're unlocked, so you can read the whole and not just the abstract!

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep17835

https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/nrcs142p2_053254.pdf

https://cmbl.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s11658-016-0008-y

There is a book that covers P use and regulation by the plant...For the life of me I can't remember it.....Stupid part is I remember that chapter 6 - pages 135 and 136 deal directly on the subject.......Plant biology book - I'll see if the wife remembers it, and if I have a copy - if so I'll scan those and post it......
 

Chunky Stool

Well-Known Member
True, that's the bulk of what you see around here

Yet, I saw my neighbor use REV's SS and he had early yellowing and high P problems....High bone meal use....I've seen high P problems from plenty of overage applications of "organic" forms of P........ Add to much and have a problem - period!

As far as internet Harley? He's missing something... a brain maybe?

The plant can only regulate so much.....fact. As an organic farmer. I have to be careful on how much P content I lay down....

WSU - pdf - read it!

https://puyallup.wsu.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/403/2015/03/bonemeal.pdf

Bonemeal is not a soluble form of P.......

As for Mpp = Monopotassium phosphate, MKP KH2PO4, is a soluble salt of potassium! So that's worse!


Other reading of direct interest.
Links 1 and 3 are full papers and they're unlocked, so you can read the whole and not just the abstract!

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep17835

https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/nrcs142p2_053254.pdf

https://cmbl.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s11658-016-0008-y

There is a book that covers P use and regulation by the plant...For the life of me I can't remember it.....Stupid part is I remember that chapter 6 - pages 135 and 136 deal directly on the subject.......Plant biology book - I'll see if the wife remembers it, and if I have a copy - if so I'll scan those and post it......
The WSU article you posted confirmed what Harley Smith said in his video. Now don't you feel silly...
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
The WSU article you posted confirmed what Harley Smith said in his video. Now don't you feel silly...
NO!
Nowhere in that article, did it state that P was self regulated - to the point of not being able to cause plant problems.

You can over do P in organics - period. You will get the same early "yellow out" as from "synthetic" P over use!
Get that straight.

The ions delivered to the plant for nutrition. Are the same in the end. Organic or synthetic. As for P, the plant can regulate only so much. It can "store" only so much. The plant will have the same high P results with over dosing your soil with too much P. might take a little longer but, I've seen cases that have been the same as synthetic too...some worse!

How do you explain that?
You can over do P in organic soil - period! The plant will attempt to regulate the P and at some point it can't keep up any more.

I like extra K for what I'm working towards.....The plant will tolerate more K, better. The more P, far better chance of early problems.

Like the WSU article said. Over use of P, comes with an added cost to the plant.

What I'm saying in the end is this - Yes, our plant does regulate P uptake. In this Harley is correct. The over use of P in soil will, at some point, create the same problems as synthetic P overage..... If Harley didn't tell you that - He's made an error! If Harley say's that Cannabis will not get a high P condition from high P organic sourced soil. He's flat out wrong!

I suspect you've drawn the wrong conclusion on your own!
 
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cindysid

Well-Known Member
If the plant regulates P uptake.

Why do we see so many P tox plants on this site?
I find it easy to overdo P, very easy.

I see them in organic too. Example: The Rev's soil is too high in P and he then spikes it again in bloom.....Nasty mix.

In synthetic's Si helps regulate P but, I have yet to see a plant not cross the line when over feed P. Not to mention that soil plants take all the Si it needs from the soil.....

I find it harder to over do K.



I still, personally, avoid MPP.......I have an aversion to high P. I choose K sulfate for the extra S....2 birds with one stone.
The new soil just built. Is amended with H2MnO5S or Manganese sulfate in small quantity. It is balanced (closely) with Fe. The idea being that the Mn actually increases THC compound levels..... I did a thread on that. Tweeter gave info on Fe needs and soil ppm values in that..... We'll see how it goes
How much Manganese sulfate per gal of soil?
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
How much Manganese sulfate per gal of soil?
Ah, this is hard to say. It gets technical here. You test your soil or get it tested and look at the ppm counts of Fe and Mn.

You adjust from there and remember that you move the Mn up in steps to just about match the Fe (or both as needed)

Here's a pic of Tweeter's soil report - post adjustments. This is your goal zone = 100ppm of each, his overage is OK.


Here's a link to understanding soil test reports - it gives amounts in lbs per acre to use.....

It's been said that you might consider raising Mn levels in soil my only 20ppm at a time....... I get the idea so it's not over done..

One might try adding 1/4 tsp to a gallon of water (that you have a ppm value to) and test the ppm of that for the change. Use it to wet a cft of soil and retest the soil. You now have the knowing of how much it effects the soil ppm. That is now your key to how much to use in that water to effect the proper adjustment in the soil.

Keep in mind that Your local USDA field office should offer cheap soil testing.....Otherwise ask your local college (helps to know folks in the AG dept.) Otherwise a quick net search should list some close to you....

That help?
 

Chunky Stool

Well-Known Member
Whatever man.
If I say you've never been wrong about anything, will you let it go?
Do you even remember how this started?
Too much P in Langbeininte... :dunce:
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Ah, this is hard to say. It gets technical here. You test your soil or get it tested and look at the ppm counts of Fe and Mn.

You adjust from there and remember that you move the Mn up in steps to just about match the Fe (or both as needed)

Here's a pic of Tweeter's soil report - post adjustments. This is your goal zone = 100ppm of each, his overage is OK.


Here's a link to understanding soil test reports - it gives amounts in lbs per acre to use.....

It's been said that you might consider raising Mn levels in soil my only 20ppm at a time....... I get the idea so it's not over done..

One might try adding 1/4 tsp to a gallon of water (that you have a ppm value to) and test the ppm of that for the change. Use it to wet a cft of soil and retest the soil. You now have the knowing of how much it effects the soil ppm. That is now your key to how much to use in that water to effect the proper adjustment in the soil.

Keep in mind that Your local USDA field office should offer cheap soil testing.....Otherwise ask your local college (helps to know folks in the AG dept.) Otherwise a quick net search should list some close to you....

That help?

OOPSY....

How to read a soil report - This my organic farming site one.

https://www.no-tillfarmer.com/articles/6147-how-to-read-a-soil-test-report

Here is my MSU extension office home/comsumer soil testing page - the link for reading that test is in the page.

http://www.msusoiltest.com/
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Also if you're adding organic phosphorous like fish bone meal to your soil, the plant regulates P uptake, so it's hard to add too much.
Gaa, your right.....I'm getting to old for this - lol I missed the whole train and was thinking about something else....:oops:

Due to this comment -
Also if you're adding organic phosphorous like fish bone meal to your soil, the plant regulates P uptake, so it's hard to add too much.
I was attempting to inform readers that you can overuse P in organic's. Yes, the plant regulates P uptake. But, only to a point. It can, and does, get P tox in organic's if supplied too much in the soil......

Someone also said MPP use. MPP is not organic and not for use in organics - you knew that already.

#1: Sol-po-mag = Me bad.....
#2: It's not that hard......The type applied and it's speed of release does effect the situation.
#3: Plant can regulate P uptake = You right
#4: Plant can OD on organic P = Me right

Now we all understand and get along? Not scolding, arguing or diss'ing you.... Simply including the rest of the story..

We're both right........although I did screw the Sol-po-mag pooch - crash and burn that one...:wall:
 

BobCajun

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't use bone meal, it's full of crud. Very high fluoride and also contains heavy metals etc. It's just a bad idea. Maybe if there were no other sources of calcium/phosphate but there are. I know bone meal sounds all organicy but the reality is that livestock bones accumulate shit. The smell of it alone should dissuade you from using it.
 

hillbill

Well-Known Member
Fish Bone Meal 6-20-0. One year out from using Indonesian bat guano 0-7-0 for P. If anything, fbm is working better. The guano I used for about 6 years was claimed to be from ancient inactive caves. It is definitely fossilized. Another one I use is steamed porcine bone meal 6-8-0. Mixed in my soil, I do not run extreme amounts of phosphorus.

Fish bone meal will stink a little when first mixed so be prepared. After a week you don't even know it's there.
 

BobCajun

Well-Known Member
Fish Bone Meal 6-20-0. One year out from using Indonesian bat guano 0-7-0 for P. If anything, fbm is working better. The guano I used for about 6 years was claimed to be from ancient inactive caves. It is definitely fossilized. Another one I use is steamed porcine bone meal 6-8-0. Mixed in my soil, I do not run extreme amounts of phosphorus.

Fish bone meal will stink a little when first mixed so be prepared. After a week you don't even know it's there.
Oh, fish bone, didn't think of that. Probably just mercury in that. Didn't investigate it, just seems possible. My guess is that simple rock phosphate is probably better, though I know it also has some crud. See this is why I just use hydro nutes. Pretty much pure chemicals. Way cleaner than anything organic I know of for phosphorus. Basically, could just buy some food grade phosphoric acid and mix it with potassium hydroxide or carbonate, if you don't like commercial monopotassium phosphate. Bones are not better just because they're called bones instead of calcium phosphate. For that matter you could actually buy pure calcium phosphate. Of course I don't even use soil, because it's not a very good grow medium. Plenty of way better alternatives.
 

Chunky Stool

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't use bone meal, it's full of crud. Very high fluoride and also contains heavy metals etc. It's just a bad idea. Maybe if there were no other sources of calcium/phosphate but there are. I know bone meal sounds all organicy but the reality is that livestock bones accumulate shit. The smell of it alone should dissuade you from using it.
Jesus H Christ, not another heavy metal warning! Dammit. That's why I quit using feather meal... :-(
I use fish bone.
What do you prefer? Guano? Soft rock phosphate?
 
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