Lumens, Lux, and Adding It all Up

dannyboy602

Well-Known Member
Yeah I read a lot of this thread when I was on vaca in az.....props to it's author
I have one question as I am a gardener and not an electrician. About what size generator would I need to produce about 20,000 watts?
And do they only run on propane? Not natty gas?
 

Burger Boss

Well-Known Member
Yeah I read a lot of this thread when I was on vaca in az.....props to it's author
I have one question as I am a gardener and not an electrician. About what size generator would I need to produce about 20,000 watts?
And do they only run on propane? Not natty gas?
OK, Danny......you need a 20,000 watt generator to put out 18,000 watts continuous, as generators are rated at peak capacity and usually they are diesel powered. However they can be converted to use almost any fuel, propane and "natty" included.
Good luck & good grow.......BB
 

NoGutsGrower

Well-Known Member
I didn't see anyone talking about the part of the light that really matters! P.A.R. (photosynthetically active radation). Par watts is the measure of the actual specific photons a plant needs to grow. Most light meters measure in ft. candles or lux. both scales measure light to which the human eye can see. THEY DO NOT measure par wats. how much light you are getting to the plant also matters on the distance from the lights! The inverse square law:e= 1/dsquared (couldn't find the little 2 button). A light that produces 100,000 lumens produces ONLY 25,000 lumens when 2 feet away!!!! And a 1000 watt that produces 100,000 lumens only produces 11,111 lumens 3 feet away! IF there is going to be a sticky about lighting IT should have plenty more stuff in it!!! here is a little chart to help some of you! If you have any lighting or other questions feel free to ask! Don't waste your money on cheap light meters!!!!!!
Untitled.jpg
 

highonbud

Active Member
way to be man I just learned something ... learned about light back in High school .... I just learned alot more tho
 

Tragic420

Well-Known Member
ok im not very booksmart about the flux and lumens ect ect lol but this is what i been working with and so far seems to be doing good.....
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adinocr7

Active Member
Looking for some expertise here. I'd like to step up to a 250W from my 150W for my next grow. Problem is my current cabinet is built into the corner of the wall. So no room for both an intake / exhause (side flange ports).

Found this on eBay for $185.00. It is a 250W HPS with a 5" cooling flange on the top of the light.

I wrote the sellar and asked how that was supposed to work. He said you would "reverse" mount a fan and pull air out from the light.

Is this thing worth the money? Or should I just keep my current cabinet with the 150W HPS to use for vegging, and build (or buy) a cabinet / grow tent that will allow for a 250 - 400W HPS with the intake & exhause vents. The thing is I really like the idea of the (2) port cooling reflectors. As I can pull fresh air in, let it run straight through and spit it out through the other side of a cabinet / tent. I just don't see the light pictured below being nearly as efficient as far as "cooling".

Any opinions would be greatly appreciated.

250W HPS_Reverse mount fan for cooling.jpg
 

NoGutsGrower

Well-Known Member
That is a nice chart if someone was interested in "lux" or "lumens". However, your cannabis is looking for P.A.R., photosynthetically active radiation. Lux & lumens are a measurement of light intensity as perceived by the human eye.......BB
The title of this thread is lux/lumens and adding it all up, but besides that look at my first post in this thread! its only back one page!
a lot of bulbs don't come with a par rating on them just a lumens. Im not saying it is the best chart in the world but he asked about a specific type of light i think the chart did a bit better than just telling him no it wont!
 

docrock

Member
If you can tell me where I can document what you said about NASA leaning towards inductive lighting for their gardens I'll send you a 50 W inductive light for free or sell you either a 150-400 watt inductive light for cost.
NASA had been trying to decide which lamp to use for garden growing when they colonize the moon. They found HID had too high of lumen depreciation, the lamps contributed too much to increased temperature (TFACTOR), drew too much in watts and was narrow spectrum meaing it would two or more lamp types to facilitate PAR for the plants. They looked for an alternative and that ended up not being LED or CFL but induction.

For our purposes the custom blend phosphors and a 2.65 KHZ+ driver induction grow lights have the maximum PAR for both veg (300 nanometers) and bud (700 nanometers) that only require one type lamp throught the entire grow. The yields tend to produce 300 g/p/m and unlike LED, CFL and T5 the canopy penetration is outstanding. The vertical and horizontal photometrics are superior to the narrow focal distribution of 15-30 degrees that even the best LED's (700 mA +) can produce. Don't waste your time or money on 350 mA LED drivers and if you do use the 700 mA LED drivers the lamp life is reduced by another 50%.

There really are a few different camps when it comes to which lights to use but isn't odd, based on what I've been reading, that no one on here as even heard of these grow lights? ck out the utube video for Indagro Induction Grow Lights as it has some interesting history into the technology as first discovered in the late 1800's by Nikola Tesla and even then he was at war with Edison over who's lamp technology was superior. Of course Edison won out with the help of JP Morgan in introducing the world to incandescent lamps that had to be replaced every 1,500 hours. Telsa's patents were bought by Westinghouse for roughly $50K and the decision was made to mass produce the indandescent lamp because of the profits it generated from having to be replaced.

Of note, like today where the LED and CFL lobbies speak to our government as being the only green friendly (completely ignoring induction-maybe it's because these lamps have rated mortalities of 100,000 hrs, just a guess) replacement to the A19 incandescent lamp which by the way as of the end of 2014 will make it illegal to sell any incandescent lamps in the USA (Energy Act of 2007), in fact within a few days GE, ahead of Congress's schedule, is closing the last remaining incandescent lamp manufacturing plant in Winchester, VA and will expand their exporting of the jobs to China where they have invested HEAVILY in LED and CFL technology.

Also of note; of you look at the paralells to the time of Tesla, Westinghouse and Edison the largest group to lobby against the spread of electrical generation and illumination was the kerosene fuel industry that saw electric lamps as a threat to their industry. Of course the spread of the AC electrical distribution system did usher in the industrial revolution and create the great America we all know by delivering power to the steel and aluminum mills. And the light fuel industry did have something to be concerned about. You just don't see many kerosene lamps around anymore. At least not in grow rooms.

Educate yourself. There are alternatives to what you've been spoon fed.
 

vh13

Well-Known Member
budlover's advice is spot on. A hermie will ruin your entire crop. A double bend made of solid materials is easy to set up and will not significantly effect air flow.
Spammity, spam, wonderful spam!

EDIT: Sorry, I've no idea what was going on... only that I was following this guy and was not allowed to report any more spam. :(
 

pr0fesseur

Well-Known Member
If you can tell me where I can document what you said about NASA leaning towards inductive lighting for their gardens I'll send you a 50 W inductive light for free or sell you either a 150-400 watt inductive light for cost.
So I searched this thread and didn't find anything related to PAR, or Photosynthetically Active Radiation. As Ed Rosenthal puts it in his Marijuana Grower's Handbook, "The light plants use is known as Photosynthetically Active Radiation, or PAR. Measuring quantum light is the only way to be certain your plants are getting all of the usable light they need."

and more from Ed
"Since lumens, lux, candles, and foot-candles are all measures of light in the narrow range of human sensitivity, they don’t accurately measure all the light to which plants are sensitive.

The better measure of light in relationship to its usefulness to plants is its Photosynthetically Active Radiation (PAR), which includes the range from 400-700 nm.

The units for measuring PAR are typically expressed in millionths of a mole per square meter per second (umol/sqm/s). pg108. Most gardens with MH or HPS lamps produce about 1,000 (umol/sqm/s) or 5000 fc or 55,000 lux. None the less, PAR measurements do not take into account far-red and UV light. Nor does it take into account how plants absorb light at different wavelengths."
http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/content/61/11/3107.full

PAR vs PUR measurement of light, efficency
This is a new thread to discuss the differences in terms of growth, asethetics and brands of various bulbs of using PAR and PUR measurements.

Some background is useful as these terms are not as familiar to many hobbyists:

Photosynthetically available radiation (PAR) is defined as the amount of radiant energy available within the approximate spectral range of 350 to 750 nm (Tyler 1966). Instruments commonly used in studies of photosynthesis are PAR meters; that is, they report 400J700 I,h) or total PAR. Photosynthetically usable radiation (PUR) is defined as
the fraction of photosynthetically available radiant
energy of such wavelengths that it can be absorbed by
the algal and plant pigments. Light is selectively absorbed
by most algae in the blue and red regions of the
spectrum, causing the transmitted light to be concentrated
in regions of the spectrum where algal pigment
systems are ineffective at trapping light for photosynthesis
(Sullivan et al. 1984). PUR is necessarily less than
PAR, and PUR will depend on both the pigment complement
of the microalgae and the spectral composition
of the available submersed radiant energy.

It has been suggested that we can calculate PUR through a light calculator and thus have a more precise method of measuring light than PAR. However, I have argued that without knowing the pigment complement of the plants in question, none of which are known............nor have been quantified near as I can tell, maybe I have not searched enough yet, you cannot say much about it. Research also supports this view.

PAR will always be equal to or higher than PUR.
I do not dispute that. PAR meters are also easy to measure with, the methods for measuring specific PUR wavelengths and intensities is not.
Modeling calulators can and do have issues, and need results to verify.

I'm asking and debating whether it can be measured and verified in the aquarium to the same argument made by PUR calculator proponents. There is not enough evidence to say that there is at this point.

You can speculate without support, but you cannot say much else.
What I am asking and looking for is some meat on the bone here, some real support that it makes a difference that aquarists can see, measure, quanatify, heck, anything other than "belief" and yes, I "feel good".

Here's an algal back ground paper that discusses what is involved and the methods to measure PUR in situ, a much higher bar than using a PAR meter. Given that most bulbs used already have a good amount of Red and blue anyway, this starts to get pretty insignificant and difficult to test and support any differences using PUR vs PAR for aquarium plants.

I remain unconvinced.

http://www.new.aslo.org/lo/toc/vol_31/issue_3/0557.pdf

Show me some quantum yeld differences, Relative growth rates differences between PAR and PUR with typical bulbs.

Something.

Are comparison of modesl is detailed here:
http://222.aslo.org/lo/toc/vol_44/issue_7/1599.pdf

While there was a difference between PAR and PUR models in biomass, look at the variation, it's quite a bit. Adding 300 species of plants and that would go even higher. There was good correlation with the PAR model and production, see the last Figure 9, also, look at table 1.
 
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