Looking for nutrients recipe help

muleface

muleface

Well-Known Member
Most of us are not doing any real testing, not using standard Scientific Method anyway.

You have lots of valid questions, most of which will not be answered here because of the my last statement.

I am not a fan of bottled nuts, I think they are overly costly. I use dried nuts. I am also not opposed to mixing them myself. I would like to see a formula added here, with links to each part. I am running 36 adult plants with an additional 18 in a germination stage and 18 in a secondary adolescence stage to use as replacements for the 36 adult plants. I also DTW, so i go though a bunch of nuts. So, please do add a recipe, also, it would be impractical for me to use RO or distilled water, so i must use city water. my PPM is about 400. So perhaps you could put a sliding scale of grams of each per gallon of water based on PPM.
 
bird mcbride

bird mcbride

Well-Known Member
I pick something that has about twice as much or so of PK as N and go 1/6 per gallon of water of what's recommended for outside plants.

I feed every watering and the plants get several floods and several drains daily that last at present, six minutes in clay grow pellets and rooted in 2" x 2" x h" Rock wool(hard).
 
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southernguy99

Well-Known Member
muleface said:
Most of us are not doing any real testing, not using standard Scientific Method anyway.
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Hey there is someone telling other people to shut up and listen because there a designer of some A&B stuff , then they should be able to put there money where there mouth is a show some data.
 
firsttimeARE

firsttimeARE

Well-Known Member
I tried following churchs advice once and burnt my seedlings.

Everyones garden is different. The minute you realize this the better off you will be.
 
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churchhaze

Well-Known Member
southernguy99 said:
what controlled testing have you done to verify that the percentage of each nutrient is in the optimal range . I.E lab testing the formula to verify the percentage of each nutrient.( elemental PPM results)
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It's this space age invention called a scale... maybe you've heard of it..? (ppm = mg/L)
 
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churchhaze

Well-Known Member
firsttimeARE said:
I tried following churchs advice once and burnt my seedlings.

Everyones garden is different. The minute you realize this the better off you will be.
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You've followed my DIY before and failed I take it? Sorry to hear that. I'm not trying to mislead noobs into burning their plants.

Honestly though, to me it sounds like you haven't tried to make DIY nutes before and considering how unspecific you were, it also sounds like you didn't actually follow any of my advice. I don't burn seedlings and they're fed 1.4EC or higher from seed/clone. I'm sorry you burned yours.
 
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churchhaze

Well-Known Member
muleface said:
I am not a fan of bottled nuts, I think they are overly costly. I use dried nuts.
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It's more convenient and accurate to use bottled nutes than it is to use dry nutes, which is why it makes sense to make stock solutions rather than just measuring out salts by mass.

The cost argument is irrelevant when you mix your own bottled nutes. Measuring out dry salts manually and dumping them directly into my reservoirs is where I was in 2009. Big step backwards.
 
firsttimeARE

firsttimeARE

Well-Known Member
churchhaze said:
You've followed my DIY before and failed I take it? Sorry to hear that. I'm not trying to mislead noobs into burning their plants.

Honestly though, to me it sounds like you haven't tried to make DIY nutes before and considering how unspecific you were, it also sounds like you didn't actually follow any of my advice. I don't burn seedlings and they're fed 1.4EC or higher from seed/clone. I'm sorry you burned yours.
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I was underfeeding and saw threads where you said you fed 1.5EC from seeds so I tried and burnt em.

I dont feed full size plants 1.4EC. Im not blaming you. You obviously know what your doing and it works for you.

I use 5-12-26 from Jacks and Calcium Nitrate and MKP sometimes. Lately ive just been using Jacks and Calcinit.

I take a gal distilled water measure out 16oz so im left with 112oz which I add 336g Jacks and another gal I add 224g Calcinit. This comes out to 3g/gal Jacks and 2g/gal Calcinit at full strength. I usually mix at a little less as full strength is 1.6EC.

These are at 1.2EC. Do they look unhealthy? RDWC dropped 20gal and feed hasnt budged over 2 weeks.
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Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
i've actually been using jack's 20-20-20 for veg, jack's citrus for flower, and blossom booster foliar spray for tomatoes for calcium. one teaspoon in a pint of water, spray once a week, no calcium issues, and no sulfur/calcium lockup in my medium.
 
muleface

muleface

Well-Known Member
churchhaze said:
It's more convenient and accurate to use bottled nutes than it is to use dry nutes, which is why it makes sense to make stock solutions rather than just measuring out salts by mass.

The cost argument is irrelevant when you mix your own bottled nutes. Measuring out dry salts manually and dumping them directly into my reservoirs is where I was in 2009. Big step backwards.
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technically as far as my res is concerned, they are liquid. I measure them and create a liquid solution prior to dumping it in my res. :) can you post your recipe? also, where do you get your supplies?

I see people running an EC of 1.4, lol, i was running higher then that, but if that works, im happy to do it.
 
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southernguy99

Well-Known Member
churchhaze said:
It's this space age invention called a scale... maybe you've heard of it..? (ppm = mg/L)
Click to expand...
churchhaze said:
For someone trying to look smart, you're not doing a good job.
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So you can't answer the simple questions so you go back to insults , so you obviously don't have a clue what your formula is actually doing . I'm not trying to look smart I just asked questions that are the fundamentals of putting together a formula

the beauty part about running hydro is you can micro manage pretty much every aspect involving the plant,IE environment and nutrients the only other factor is genetics, ( relatively speaking ) someone said I think in this thread the environment is more important then nutrients , that is a Myth and not true. they are both equal . think of it this way the leaves and roots are directly connected , if the leaves are in a optimal environment they are telling the roots to send optimal nutrients and water , so if the nutrients are not in an optimal form how do you think that will effect plant growth , yield etc. remember out of the total amount absorbed by the plant, only 5% is utilized in biochemical processes; the rest is loss via transpiration. I could write a book lol but I hope everyone gets the idea of this.

nutrients this is the gem of hydro , because it can be controlled or micro managed not only for macronutrients but micronutrients to. The single most important part about any nutrient formula is balance. not PPM , not EC balance period, and this is the #1 cause of deficiencies . This ratio of elements is more critical than the actual concentration of the individual elements. meaning every micro or macro element in the formula has to balanced with each other.if there is 2 much of 1 or more elements in the solution there will be a deficiency in other elements , if there is not enough of 1 element there will be a deficiency in another even though there is plenty available.this is one reason why plant tissue sample are important if your truly designing something , nitrogen is most important followed by potassium etc etc. but they all have a relationship to one another its either Synergistic or Antagonistic.
Optimum supply of nitrogen ensures optimum uptake of potassium as well as phosphorus, magnesium, iron, manganese and zinc , Optimal levels of copper and boron improve nitrogen uptake by plant. , Optimal levels of molybdenum improve utilization of nitrogen as well as increases uptake of phosphorus this Synergistic
Excessive amounts of nitrogen reduce the uptake of phosphorus, potassium, iron and almost all secondary and micronutrients like calcium and magnesium iron, manganese, zinc and copper. this is Antagonistic. these are just some examples something else to think about Calcium, magnesium and potassium ions are quite similar in size and charge , exchange sites cannot distinguish the difference between the ions , the binding strengths of potassium and calcium are much stronger than magnesium and they easily out-compete magnesium .
so once you have a balanced and verified formula its all about understand your plants needs and how to feed it, so like I said in week one of veg. a plant has a specific need for nutrients , so each element is balanced out to fit that need , week 2 the needs are a bit different so amounts are changed for certain elements but everything is calculated to be balanced. week 3 same and so on. so what i'm getting at is you can precisely feed your plants exactly the elements they want on a weekly basis. plants want a specific diet through the veg, then a 10 day pre-flower specific diet, then flower etc, this is the gem with hydro you give your plants exactly what they want when they want it ,this is not achievable but using a pre mixed part A&B formula. like boron there is 2 weeks in flower that if you give your plants a higher rate of boron it makes a big difference in quality and yield, but this goes for all macro and micro nutrients depending on the plants growth stage.
so anyone that truly knows how to run hydro system and mix nutes this is the concept behind it , this is why hydro systems are revered for there fast growth monster yields etc.
 
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churchhaze

Well-Known Member
muleface said:
technically as far as my res is concerned, they are liquid. I measure them and create a liquid solution prior to dumping it in my res. :) can you post your recipe? also, where do you get your supplies?

I see people running an EC of 1.4, lol, i was running higher then that, but if that works, im happy to do it.
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I get most of my supplies from cropking.com but you could find them from anywhere. Check my signature if you want to know what chemicals I use. I have posted my recipes around RIU, but they're all designed for my hard water, so I prefer to post public domain recipes instead. (like the university of florida's tomato recipe in my DIY, or hoagland). The truth is that all the recipes are pretty much the same with minor variation and that each user will dial in their own variation anyway. For example, if all is well using Hoagland except Mg is needed to fix a deficiency, iteration #2 will have 10-20ppm more Mg (when mixed in final res).
 
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churchhaze

Well-Known Member
southernguy99 said:
So you can't answer the simple questions so you go back to insults , so you obviously don't have a clue what your formula is actually doing . I'm not trying to look smart I just asked questions that are the fundamentals of putting together a formula

the beauty part about running hydro is you can micro manage pretty much every aspect involving the plant,IE environment and nutrients the only other factor is genetics, ( relatively speaking ) someone said I think in this thread the environment is more important then nutrients , that is a Myth and not true. they are both equal . think of it this way the leaves and roots are directly connected , if the leaves are in a optimal environment they are telling the roots to send optimal nutrients and water , so if the nutrients are not in an optimal form how do you think that will effect plant growth , yield etc. remember out of the total amount absorbed by the plant, only 5% is utilized in biochemical processes; the rest is loss via transpiration. I could write a book lol but I hope everyone gets the idea of this.

nutrients this is the gem of hydro , because it can be controlled or micro managed not only for macronutrients but micronutrients to. The single most important part about any nutrient formula is balance. not PPM , not EC balance period, and this is the #1 cause of deficiencies . This ratio of elements is more critical than the actual concentration of the individual elements. meaning every micro or macro element in the formula has to balanced with each other.if there is 2 much of 1 or more elements in the solution there will be a deficiency in other elements , if there is not enough of 1 element there will be a deficiency in another even though there is plenty available.this is one reason why plant tissue sample are important if your truly designing something , nitrogen is most important followed by potassium etc etc. but they all have a relationship to one another its either Synergistic or Antagonistic.
Optimum supply of nitrogen ensures optimum uptake of potassium as well as phosphorus, magnesium, iron, manganese and zinc , Optimal levels of copper and boron improve nitrogen uptake by plant. , Optimal levels of molybdenum improve utilization of nitrogen as well as increases uptake of phosphorus this Synergistic
Excessive amounts of nitrogen reduce the uptake of phosphorus, potassium, iron and almost all secondary and micronutrients like calcium and magnesium iron, manganese, zinc and copper. this is Antagonistic. these are just some examples something else to think about Calcium, magnesium and potassium ions are quite similar in size and charge , exchange sites cannot distinguish the difference between the ions , the binding strengths of potassium and calcium are much stronger than magnesium and they easily out-compete magnesium .
so once you have a balanced and verified formula its all about understand your plants needs and how to feed it, so like I said in week one of veg. a plant has a specific need for nutrients , so each element is balanced out to fit that need , week 2 the needs are a bit different so amounts are changed for certain elements but everything is calculated to be balanced. week 3 same and so on. so what i'm getting at is you can precisely feed your plants exactly the elements they want on a weekly basis. plants want a specific diet through the veg, then a 10 day pre-flower specific diet, then flower etc, this is the gem with hydro you give your plants exactly what they want when they want it ,this is not achievable but using a pre mixed part A&B formula. like boron there is 2 weeks in flower that if you give your plants a higher rate of boron it makes a big difference in quality and yield, but this goes for all macro and micro nutrients depending on the plants growth stage.
so anyone that truly knows how to run hydro system and mix nutes this is the concept behind it , this is why hydro systems are revered for there fast growth monster yields etc.
Click to expand...
It's because of rants like yours that people are driven away from DIY nutes. You make it seem like this really complicated scientific process when it's more like baking cookies. I will try this one last time... You know what's in it because everything that goes in is measured with a scale... If I put 1 gram of salt "A" into a 1L bottle and fill the rest with distilled water, I know what's in the bottle (1000ppm A) without having to do analysis. Analysis is what you do when trying to discover what's in someone else's recipe because they won't tell you.
 
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churchhaze

Well-Known Member
southernguy99 said:
there is 2 weeks in flower that if you give your plants a higher rate of boron it makes a big difference in quality and yield,
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I would love to see evidence of this. If it's actually true, I will boost boron during that very specific window, 2 weeks in flower. It sounds like a load...
 
muleface

muleface

Well-Known Member
churchhaze said:
I get most of my supplies from cropking.com but you could find them from anywhere. Check my signature if you want to know what chemicals I use. I have posted my recipes around RIU, but they're all designed for my hard water, so I prefer to post public domain recipes instead. (like the university of florida's tomato recipe in my DIY, or hoagland). The truth is that all the recipes are pretty much the same with minor variation and that each user will dial in their own variation anyway. For example, if all is well using Hoagland except Mg is needed to fix a deficiency, iteration #2 will have 10-20ppm more Mg (when mixed in final res).
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i would very much like to see a hard water recipe. I have pretty hard water.

I just pulled the UoF page. wow.....

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/cv216

this is way more work then im willing to do. Is there a forumla that will work for the entire process?

this is a great read however, i would encourage everyone to look through it.
 
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churchhaze

Well-Known Member
muleface said:
i would very much like to see a hard water recipe. I have pretty hard water.

I just pulled the UoF page. wow.....

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/cv216

this is way more work then im willing to do. Is there a forumla that will work for the entire process?

this is a great read however, i would encourage everyone to look through it.
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Check the link in my signature. The DIY uses the University of Florida recipes built into Hydrobuddy's database on a fresh install.

Here is Mix #21, but I wouldn't recommend using it unless you have very hard water. (I will likely update this to mix #22 in the very near future as I think something changed with my water with a new public well project. I think there is too little calcium despite the high amount in the water)

mix21_hard.jpg

I highly recommend using a UoF formula or Hoagland as a baseline for tweaking on. My only problem with hoagland is that while it's P is sufficient, it can quickly become deficient as EC goes down. For that reason I prefer to have P somewhere around 50-60ppm to guarantee it will never drop below 30ppm.

Also, what southernguy99 was saying about cations antagonizing each other is very true, so it's important not to throw those ratios out of wack.

Edit: Ignore the nitric acid part... you clearly can't fit over 1000mL of anything into a 1L bottle. That's basically saying "you will need lots of pH down and here's how it factors in to N".
 
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