Light ???
- Thread starter RM3
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RM3
Well-Known Member
Not sure what you mean by PH lock? biggest part of yield is the machine, build big root systems
maybe block not lock...lol. I mean soil ph getting out of parameters for the most useful intake of nutes. I guess just watering with unknown ph water into unknown ph soil.how that compares to using only one color temp light in your grow for example only soft white cfl 2700K......Sorry just trying to get my best yield.....so many things to watch.....good thread though
RM3
Well-Known Member
The PH thing varies with grow style and medium, and yeppers it matters but does have a window or a range IMO it's not the most important thing to be concerned with. If using CFL's use a mixed spectrum
jpizzle4shizzle
Well-Known Member
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
Jorge Cervantes aka George Patton wrote a comprehensive lighting ditty in a HT mag, March 2000. He supports in real data what I have observed and stated anecdotally. I've said over and over again that the plants don't really care when it comes to MH versus HPS, they do fine under both and the ONLY real reason for the lighting lamps, ballast gimmicks MH to HPS is to pad the lighting corporate pockets.
Now....he did fine until he got down to the part that HPS doesn't have much blues. It has plenty for great plant performance as I've witnessed growing from start to finish exclusively with HPS. He also didn't mention a plant's light saturation point, notice the last statement that the higher the light intensity the better. However, the entire article needs to be read in order to put it all in its proper context and perspective.
Just took a photo of one of the pages of this great article. Will say it again, Cervantes has the best chapter on lighting using real data/measurements I've seen in a grow bible.
Draw a horizontal line across the bottom of the chart to separate the non-PAR noise (green/yellow/orange) from the rest and it's evident that the spectral distribution or output of blue is about as much as the red and FR.
Now....he did fine until he got down to the part that HPS doesn't have much blues. It has plenty for great plant performance as I've witnessed growing from start to finish exclusively with HPS. He also didn't mention a plant's light saturation point, notice the last statement that the higher the light intensity the better. However, the entire article needs to be read in order to put it all in its proper context and perspective.
Just took a photo of one of the pages of this great article. Will say it again, Cervantes has the best chapter on lighting using real data/measurements I've seen in a grow bible.
Draw a horizontal line across the bottom of the chart to separate the non-PAR noise (green/yellow/orange) from the rest and it's evident that the spectral distribution or output of blue is about as much as the red and FR.
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Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
That's fine and that exact mix was recommended at the end of the article. There was a method to my madness when I grew indoors. I used a 400W MH to start my seedlings AND more importantly, when the garden's footprint expanded (yes, I'd physically move the reflective walls outward) and I felt the need for more light because of the broader area, I would add a 600W HPS. The process was reversed as I harvested, pulled plants out, moved the reflective panels inward toward the center and finished up with the HPS.
RM3
Well-Known Member
Posted this this weekend over at my place, thought I'd share it here 
This is why I tell folks to read things outside of MJ forums. Like the Plant Growth Chamber Handbook, a scientific journey into growing indoors. Here is a link to chapter one ,,,,
http://www.controlledenvironments.org/Growth_Chamber_Handbook/Ch01.pdf
The whole book is here,,,,,
http://www.controlledenvironments.org/Growth_Chamber_Handbook/Plant_Growth_Chamber_Handbook.htm
If you look at page 3 you will see a comparison of different lights (including the sun) measured in the wavelengths that plants respond to (PAR) and you will see that Flouros and Metal Halides beat HPS pretty bad and more closely compare to the sun. This is totally because of the blue in those lights that HPS lacks. Note that Lumens & Lux are included in the chart. IMO this chapter should be required reading but actually the whole book is a great read !!!
Then there is my fav posted thread over ICMAG back in 2008 where the OP like some here tried to link lumens to par with a few trolls and a few really good responses, it is only 2 pages long
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=105515
and here are a few more good reads on the subject ,,,,,
http://www.just4growers.com/stream/grow-lights/lumens-are-for-humans,-par-is-for-plants!.aspx
http://www.gavita-holland.com/index.php/item/lumens-are-for-humans.html
http://www.sunmastergrowlamps.com/SunmLightandPlants.html
Folks are always amazed at what I do with lights but don't seem to want to learn why?
This is why I tell folks to read things outside of MJ forums. Like the Plant Growth Chamber Handbook, a scientific journey into growing indoors. Here is a link to chapter one ,,,,
http://www.controlledenvironments.org/Growth_Chamber_Handbook/Ch01.pdf
The whole book is here,,,,,
http://www.controlledenvironments.org/Growth_Chamber_Handbook/Plant_Growth_Chamber_Handbook.htm
If you look at page 3 you will see a comparison of different lights (including the sun) measured in the wavelengths that plants respond to (PAR) and you will see that Flouros and Metal Halides beat HPS pretty bad and more closely compare to the sun. This is totally because of the blue in those lights that HPS lacks. Note that Lumens & Lux are included in the chart. IMO this chapter should be required reading but actually the whole book is a great read !!!
Then there is my fav posted thread over ICMAG back in 2008 where the OP like some here tried to link lumens to par with a few trolls and a few really good responses, it is only 2 pages long
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=105515
and here are a few more good reads on the subject ,,,,,
http://www.just4growers.com/stream/grow-lights/lumens-are-for-humans,-par-is-for-plants!.aspx
http://www.gavita-holland.com/index.php/item/lumens-are-for-humans.html
http://www.sunmastergrowlamps.com/SunmLightandPlants.html
Folks are always amazed at what I do with lights but don't seem to want to learn why?
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
Because I researched and digested this shit until I was blue in the face 15 years ago and I aint gonna bother any mo, hah!
Gawd, if I had a nickel for every lighting thread 4, 8, 12, 15 years ago.For noobs, they'd be advised to read and try to process what's in your links. They'd also be advised to pay attention to bonafide plant growth studies conducted by non-partisan (those NOT in the lighting industry) universities. NASA's studies would be a good start.
UB
Sativied
Well-Known Member
I guess Phillips has it all wrong then, designing those inefficient HID lights for horticulture purposes while their T5s are actually better grow lights.
If you would have claimed T5 can measure up to HPS in terms of yield... but this talk of T5 being better than HPS is getting old fast... speaking of old, that table is based on 30-year old data.
Also ironic how you link that popular article from Gavita.
If you would have claimed T5 can measure up to HPS in terms of yield... but this talk of T5 being better than HPS is getting old fast... speaking of old, that table is based on 30-year old data.
Also ironic how you link that popular article from Gavita.
RM3
Well-Known Member
Why ironic? I'm not saying T5 is better than HPS, never have each has a use and IMO those using HPS could get better results if they added some T5 (or LED) supplementation and by better results I'm talking quality as in potency. I'm fully aware that HPS gives higher yields. And tis very true that many advances in design improvements have occurred since that book was written. But it is also very true that adding deep blue increases trics and resin growth
Sativied
Well-Known Member
Well you're kind of implying it here by referencing that table:
and providing other links to help people interpret that.
Besides that:
I guess you meant no better T5 then...
Because a gavita isn't just any HPS setup and a good example of HPS>T5. Reminds me of LED fans making comparisons to HPS, they take the numbers of some average old knockoff HPS instead of a real philips in gavita gear skewing the numbers up to 30%.
Maybe it just looks like that because of the smaller buds, ever thought of that? You get the same amount of trics, but on less swollen bud, making it look more frosty.
There's only so much blue you need to fill a closet with frosty buds. I grow for resin too... with hps:
It's a valid point though. A major advantage of your tanning bed and often underestimated factor is the spread. While I prefer a MH+HPS over T5 for more blue during flowering, it's impossible to get such an even spread with two different hid bulbs.
RM3
Well-Known Member
IMO T5's are better for a small hobby grower with a small garden. If I was growing for yield I would get a 4 foot hood with an HPS and put it in the middle of my booth with the T5's on each side which would give the best of both worlds IMO and I would have the UV & deep blue bulbs in the T5 fixtures as the HPS would supply the reds.
and yeppers the aquarium bulbs are the best T5 bulbs as they are designed to penetrate 3 feet of water to grow coral
But the main purpose of that post was to help new growers better understand that Lumens are not the proper way to judge a light
and yeppers the aquarium bulbs are the best T5 bulbs as they are designed to penetrate 3 feet of water to grow coral
But the main purpose of that post was to help new growers better understand that Lumens are not the proper way to judge a light
Sativied
Well-Known Member
That's the general consensus in the dutch grow forums as well, they call it micro/fluo grows. Although we probably have a slightly different interpretation of what a small garden is.
Yeah I got that, and a little ironic if you indeed claimed T5>HPS because that gavita article is written for the same purpose, to be able to better judge lights, i.e. be able to see why gavita hps is (on paper anyway) better.
That actually sounds pretty good. I run 600watt on 4x4 and would like a little more light on the edges. 600watt, especially in my gavita tripplestar hood, is better suited for 3.5x3.5 or 3x4. I've considered LED, CFLs, and CMH (210w version) but not T5 yet... probably going to rebuild and reshape my closet but interesting option to consider especially with T5 with such a reach.
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RM3
Well-Known Member
Have you ever checked out Lumi's Illumination chamber at that other site I try not to mention, he used T5's as side lightingThat's the general consensus in the dutch grow forums as well, they call it micro grows. Although we probably have a slightly different interpretation of what a small garden is.
Yeah I got that, and a little ironic if you indeed claimed T5>HPS because that gavita article is written for the same purpose, to be able to better judge lights, i.e. be able to see why gavita hps is (on paper anyway) better.
That actually sounds pretty good. I run 600watt on 4x4 and would like a little more light on the edges. 600watt, especially in my gavita tripplestar hood, is better suited for 3.5x3.5 or 3x4. I've considered LED, CFLs, and CMH (210w version) but not T5 yet... probably going to rebuild and reshape my closet but interesting option to consider especially with T5 with such a reach.
