LED lighting requirements for microgreens and aromatic herbs

Metacanna

Metacanna

Well-Known Member
Those numbers are fine but to have a coverage of 1.4 sq ft I suppose the COB had to be at least one foot above the top of my plants, that would require to space the shelves, thus, diminishing growing area.
To be more specific let me show you where I will be growing:



It's the same rack but twice the size. Each shelf it's adjustable in height.

The top shelves are 5 inch apart (that's how I will set mine), the majority of the microgreens I will be growing reach 3 inch height, so there's another 2 inches left before they touch the top. I assume the Vero 10 even having an angle of 120º won't spread light uniformly at this distance, more likely will burn the closest microgreens, here is where LED strips would be useful.
However, I will also have 18 inches apart shelves for bigger plants like basil, for that situation I will consider your advice.

Do you think I would need fans for Vero 10 running at 350-500mA?
I was thinking installing them on a thin aluminium frame, if that's not enough for heat dissipation than it won't be a viable option for me. Let me know what you think.

;)
 
bicit

bicit

Well-Known Member
@AquariusPanta - At 4 inches I get a spread of 14.2 inches. With the bulk of the light in the center 5 inches and the outer 9.2 inches receiving less than 50% of the light intensity. Under these conditions the center plants would get bleached and the outer plants would stretch, not a great situation. It's rather funny since the framework for this discussion is pretty similar to the HID vs COB array discussion. What do you want a 3'x3' grow space, a single 600w lamp or twelve 50w cobs?

@Metacanna - at one foot a vero 10 would actually cover about 41 inches, or 3.5ft with an inner circle of 14.2 inches. The spread is pretty insane with a 120* beam angle. However you're spot on about the coverage, the bulk of the power will be in the center of the light pattern at any hanging height. To answer your second question would depend on the type of heatsink used. The vero 10 I'm testing is running at 200-300ma is only a few degrees above ambient with no fans or air movement of any sort.The driver cost $1.50 and I haven't tested the actual output yet :P

http://www.fasttech.com/products/1506/10001927/1173705
 
C

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
Not only will the intensity of the center be greater than the intensity of the perimeter, the angle of the light hitting the plants will be directly overhead in the center, and near the horizon for plants on the edge, unless there are multiple rows/columns of cobs.
 
AquariusPanta

AquariusPanta

Well-Known Member
bicit said:
@AquariusPanta - At 4 inches I get a spread of 14.2 inches. With the bulk of the light in the center 5 inches and the outer 9.2 inches receiving less than 50% of the light intensity. Under these conditions the center plants would get bleached and the outer plants would stretch, not a great situation. It's rather funny since the framework for this discussion is pretty similar to the HID vs COB array discussion. What do you want a 3'x3' grow space, a single 600w lamp or twelve 50w cobs?

@Metacanna - at one foot a vero 10 would actually cover about 41 inches, or 3.5ft with an inner circle of 14.2 inches. The spread is pretty insane with a 120* beam angle. However you're spot on about the coverage, the bulk of the power will be in the center of the light pattern at any hanging height. To answer your second question would depend on the type of heatsink used. The vero 10 I'm testing is running at 200-300ma is only a few degrees above ambient with no fans or air movement of any sort.The driver cost $1.50 and I haven't tested the actual output yet :P

http://www.fasttech.com/products/1506/10001927/1173705
Click to expand...
After recalculating my original work (a few scribbles lol) and solving through TAN, I ended up with a similar outcome of around 14 inches.
 
bicit

bicit

Well-Known Member
Well I'm not sure if SMD led's would be any better that fluorescent. They all seem to be ~94-100 lm/w which make them only mildly more efficient than T5HO bulbs. One of the supposedly better brands, flexfire, only gets 98lm/w from their top of the line strip lights and need to be attached to a heat sink of some sort. So at $15 a foot for the strips alone, it doesn't look like an economical option. Not when T5 and T5HO bulbs hit 100lm/w and 90lm/w for a much lower price. Red and blue leds may be more efficient, but that's outside of my experience, I haven't played with monochromes yet.
 
Metacanna

Metacanna

Well-Known Member
For that price I agree it wouldn't be a good economical option. However on ebay you can find 5 meters of SMD 5630, 300 LEDS total prices ranging 10$-15$.
Let's assume these cheap LEDs on ebay are 20% less efficient than those you saw, still, for the price I think it's worth. Plus, for my needs in particular I believe are better option than T5 because of the heat and more suitable to cover a large area of microgreens.

My idea is to order cool white, warm white, red and blue strips and then play with them on different type of microgreens and herbs to understand how they respond to each kind of light. Once I learn what is the best lightning spectrum and other specific requirements for each type I will feel confident to invest in a more efficient solution (in terms of lumens / watt) . Basically I just want to acquire some know-how before scaling in growing area and lights, I hope these LEDs are enough to start things rolling. If I'm lucky these cheap LEDs will work really well and won't need to be upgraded soon 8).
It will take a few weeks until I have everything in place, once I have results I will let you know.

Thanks everyone for your contribution, it encouraged me to do research on things were unknown to me and helped me to figure out a few things about LED lightning.
 
stardustsailor

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
My humble opinion is that a grow situation like this (floored & bedded micro-greens and herbs ) is most
benefited by the highest efficiency of a Red & blue combination .
The low level of power needed per area is a key factor here .
Since no high values of PAR flux are needed to grow these plants ,
then the need for secondary wavelengths becomes obsolete.
A deep red i.e 660 nm red and deep blue i.e. 450 nm led combination ,will produce high quality
herbs and leafy vegetables both regarding taste and nutritional value .

An extra FR leds i.e. 730 nm addition is desirable in certain cases .
http://www.led-professional.com/products/miscellaneous/expanded-product-range-for-horticultural-lighting-with-a-201cfar-red201d-version

If it was me ,I will be searching for R+B+FR combinations of high quality branded leds (I.e. Osram Oslon ,Cree ,Phillips,to name few ),in "stripe " or "bar " configurations ./ fixtures .
Something slim enough ,to fit under each "floor" ...
Not much power needed..
As much of area has to be covered - illuminated - in such case ..

Another great alternative is Han's panels ...
(search for Bonsai Hero ) .
But might be somewhat pricey option ,since more than a few panels are needed.
Quality of build and parts involved in those panels is top of the top ,thought...

Cheers.
 
AquariusPanta

AquariusPanta

Well-Known Member
Metacanna said:
For that price I agree it wouldn't be a good economical option. However on ebay you can find 5 meters of SMD 5630, 300 LEDS total prices ranging 10$-15$.
Let's assume these cheap LEDs on ebay are 20% less efficient than those you saw, still, for the price I think it's worth. Plus, for my needs in particular I believe are better option than T5 because of the heat and more suitable to cover a large area of microgreens.

My idea is to order cool white, warm white, red and blue strips and then play with them on different type of microgreens and herbs to understand how they respond to each kind of light. Once I learn what is the best lightning spectrum and other specific requirements for each type I will feel confident to invest in a more efficient solution (in terms of lumens / watt) . Basically I just want to acquire some know-how before scaling in growing area and lights, I hope these LEDs are enough to start things rolling. If I'm lucky these cheap LEDs will work really well and won't need to be upgraded soon 8).
It will take a few weeks until I have everything in place, once I have results I will let you know.

Thanks everyone for your contribution, it encouraged me to do research on things were unknown to me and helped me to figure out a few things about LED lightning.
Click to expand...
If you have the time, please feel free to share a journal or thread that depicts some of what you discover. I'm positive that a bunch of us here would be seriously interested on how your grow develops and turns out, as some of us are new to growing certain species of plants and welcome any knowledge over the matter.


:leaf::peace::leaf::peace::leaf::peace::leaf:
 
bicit

bicit

Well-Known Member
stardustsailor said:
My humble opinion is that a grow situation like this (floored & bedded micro-greens and herbs ) is most
benefited by the highest efficiency of a Red & blue combination .
The low level of power needed per area is a key factor here .
Since no high values of PAR flux are needed to grow these plants ,
then the need for secondary wavelengths becomes obsolete.
A deep red i.e 660 nm red and deep blue i.e. 450 nm led combination ,will produce high quality
herbs and leafy vegetables both regarding taste and nutritional value .

Another great alternative is Han's panels ...
(search for Bonsai Hero ) .
But might be somewhat pricey option ,since more than a few panels are needed.
Quality of build and parts involved in those panels is top of the top ,thought...

Cheers.
Click to expand...
What sort of power levels would be ideal for this sort of thing? What sort of ratio's would be ideal? I'm very interested in getting some tests going.
 
Metacanna

Metacanna

Well-Known Member
stardustsailor, thanks for your input. I have read some microgreens like basil can differ in taste depending on lightning spectrum conditions, that's why I considered wider spectrum (cool/warm white) lightning to test it. A 3 ft strip of 3000k/5000k costs me 2$, it won't hurt my budget and will be enough for testing purposes. Crazy exciting times we live on :)
Btw, have you grown microgreens/herbs with LEDs? If so, any additional tips?

AquariusPanta, sure I will. I have found super useful information in this forum, I would like to give my contribution in return. It feels good to be "surrounded" by people with the same interests, it's a win-win game, everyone gets benefited by sharing information/experiences. Unless you turn to be competition in the market I will be targeting :mrgreen:. I live in a very snowy part of Europe where I truly believe there's a gap in indoors cultivation, crops aren't available all year round and during Winter some of the most common greens are incredible expensive. Plus, purchasing power here is high and electricity is cheap. Perfect conditions for a little venture indoors. I won't go commercial now but in a near future I hope to have all the necessary conditions to go for it.

I'm not new to indoors growing, I started with cannabis and that's when I found how interesting and fascinating it is to grow things, smokable or eatable. So fascinating that I ended realizing that would be something I wanted to do for a living, I have to give a try at least.
 
C

CellarDweller

Well-Known Member
Metacanna said:
stardustsailor, thanks for your input. I have read some microgreens like basil can differ in taste depending on lightning spectrum conditions, that's why I considered wider spectrum (cool/warm white) lightning to test it. A 3 ft strip of 3000k/5000k costs me 2$, it won't hurt my budget and will be enough for testing purposes. Crazy exciting times we live on :)
Btw, have you grown microgreens/herbs with LEDs? If so, any additional tips?

AquariusPanta, sure I will. I have found super useful information in this forum, I would like to give my contribution in return. It feels good to be "surrounded" by people with the same interests, it's a win-win game, everyone gets benefited by sharing information/experiences. Unless you turn to be competition in the market I will be targeting :mrgreen:. I live in a very snowy part of Europe where I truly believe there's a gap in indoors cultivation, crops aren't available all year round and during Winter some of the most common greens are incredible expensive. Plus, purchasing power here is high and electricity is cheap. Perfect conditions for a little venture indoors. I won't go commercial now but in a near future I hope to have all the necessary conditions to go for it.

I'm not new to indoors growing, I started with cannabis and that's when I found how interesting and fascinating it is to grow things, smokable or eatable. So fascinating that I ended realizing that would be something I wanted to do for a living, I have to give a try at least.
Click to expand...
Metacanna.....yesterday I started up actively researching forums for the answers to similar questions to yours an came across RIU (I posted the below post)....and we have a similar goal. I am also interested in seeing how a 1.2 x 1.2 x 2.2m grow tent could provide a range of veg over a 12 month cycle:

Tomato
Aubergine (Eggplant)
Courgette (Zucchini)
Peppers
Chilli
Lettuce (various)
Herbs (various)
Kale / Cabbage / Broccoli
Pumpkin

These would provide a full range of necessary vitamins and nutrients. Clearly not all that the same time and the space might end up getting bigger if the success is there....but at a footprint of 1.8sqm I reckon a family of 4 would need no more veg and increasing sqm linearly gives a geometric return in some. I am very excited by the possibility of sharing learning experiences.......here is the post from yesterday on the COB thread for the tomato/pepper requirements

"So .....please forgive my ignorance*, but a quick question. (the background to the question is below, for those that can be bothered or are bored!)

Is there any reason, barring cost (therefore potential $ efficiency), for not using a "high-density" array, such as the CXA2590? I am thinking of a 4000K as a baseline colour temp and then supplementing with additional lights where/when required. (more on the design of those later).

The Background:

I am right at the very beginning of my journey, will start with a small garden, but I want to start "on the right road" so to speak. Not interested in learning via other growing media/light methods and then "transferring" that wisdom into a totally different approach.

My initial idea is to build a 1-up dimmable CXA2590 on a CPU cooler that can be suspended above a single grow pot. Highly likely I will use a reflector on the array, as well and jerry rig some mylar around the plant to provide reflected/diffuse light.

As I will take this from seedling to fruit, I am thinking of starting with a 4000K range, it has good blues, enough red and spread in the green/yellow and so should make a good veg option. CRI isn't special, but frankly, CRI is an exceptionally subjective and potentially b*llshit way of measuring light (happy to take that offline with anyone that wants to discuss and/or edumacate me).

This light can be hung from a frame directly above the plant. My aim is to measure variables and learn (soil temp/ambient temp/PPF/humidity/airflow etc) in the aim of moving onto a controlled environment on a larger scale. I will also be looking to use the dimmer and supplemental lights to to accurately replicate day/night cycles, with light intensity and "spectral quality" being manipulated. There are some interesting scientific studies on this and how plants respond to watering cycles vs light cycles.

Finally, though this is an MJ growing forum....I shan't be growing MJ (I'll be growing veg, like tomatoes). My dream is to finally and scientifically jam it down the collective throats of the southern mediterranean nations that indoor growing can and will one day surpass the quality of their "grown with emotion under the sun" product.

Yours in anticipation of an utter hosing for using this forum to debate the potential of growing veg........CellarDweller

*I think that will become my auto-signature until I'm about 80, then it'll become "please forgive me"!"
 
ekim046

ekim046

Well-Known Member
Metacanna said:
Dear all,

I'm about to start an aquaponic project indoors, for those unfamiliar with, it is a mix of hydroponic and aquaculture. I will be growing microgreens and aromatic herbs mainly, the light requirements for these plants are not comparable with cannabis, so I'm hoping to find something cheaper to buy and run instead of HPS or expensive LEDs. I'm also trying to avoid CLF or T5 because of the heat, poor efficiency and need to replace lamps frequently.

I will be growing on a rack of 3fx1f shelves, 3/4f apart. This is the main reason why I'm concerned about the heat of T5. Plus, it won't be possible to hang a single powerful focus of light on each shelf, instead I will need to disperse the light.
It will be something like this:



I ended on ebay looking for cheap LEDs, I know there's some controversy in this forum about them suitability for growing, but let's be pragmatic instead of discarding it that easily.

I found this for 6$ each:



It has mixed blue and red light (nm not specified), 80lum/per watt. This one in particular has 7w, so 560l in total.
I'm planning to distribute 500l per sq ft, so my thinking is 3 of these per shelf (3 sq ft) would do the job.

Upfront cost would be 18$, consumption 21w, 1680 lumens.

Comparing to a 21w T5 , I would end with the same lumens but the upfront cost would be higher since I would have to buy the ballast and shipping costs are also much higher, plus it would be necessary to replace it frequently. Also, generates more heat.

I must say that I plan to distribute 500l/sq ft considering my previous experiences but feel free to contradict me.

Other option is this:


5pcs 15W 36SMD 5050 Red+Blue Grow LED Light for 15$

Voltage: DC12V
LED: red and blue:9 blue,27red
LED Wavelength Red: 660nm; Blue:445nm
Lum/ per watts is not specified

Any idea what does 36SMD 5050 mean?
Consumption is 15W, I still don't know if it per strip or per 5pcs.

This would be the perfect scenario as it is easier to install and assure light is spread uniformly over the shelf.

I would like to know, from anyone who tried these cheap LEDs if it suitable to grow smaller plants in general, herbs, small vegetables etc. I'm sure this wouldn't work for cannabis at all but that is not the point.

Any advice, tips?

Thanks for your time. :)
Click to expand...
How fun! that is actually my shelf posted here ☺I'm flattered you guys like it! I have upgraded a lot since then and am currently considering the switch to leds as well. I'm heading over to an led producer as we speak. This is my current setup now:
 
OneHitDone

OneHitDone

Well-Known Member
I find this discussion very interesting and will have to double back a reread it in more detail when I get more time.
I just want to contribute what I have seen first hand using the Philips Green Power LED Module in the red/blue variety on non cannabis crops.
Stretch Central!! I found them to be horrible for lettuce and other greens from seed.
I had the best luck using T8 6500K bulbs placed 2-3" above the soil initially.
I however would like to find another alternative for seed starting
 

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Metacanna

Metacanna

Well-Known Member
Oh nice :).
Any idea about the leds you will be installing?

I still building my shelf growing space. The irrigation system I'm building is a bit complex so it is taking more time than I thought. At this point I doubt it's worth to build anything too complex to grow microgreeens as these require so little care. Instead I will use this same system to grow vegetables with little light requirements like lettuce and basil, it's of better use having in mind the money invested.
I realized that my microgreens grow perfectly on the window, I put the seeds on a sterile growing pad and water with water from my aquarium. For those unfamiliar with, aquarium water contains high leves of NO3 (nitrogen) and other minerals.

m.jpg
 
Metacanna

Metacanna

Well-Known Member
OneHitDone said:
I find this discussion very interesting and will have to double back a reread it in more detail when I get more time.
I just want to contribute what I have seen first hand using the Philips Green Power LED Module in the red/blue variety on non cannabis crops.
Stretch Central!! I found them to be horrible for lettuce and other greens from seed.
I had the best luck using T8 6500K bulbs placed 2-3" above the soil initially.
I however would like to find another alternative for seed starting
Click to expand...
Interesting what you say, I experimented to grow basil under red and blue leds as well, I ended with very bizarre plants, the leaves grew completely twisted. I concluded that I need whites to get things done...
 
bicit

bicit

Well-Known Member
I'm building a microgreen system here in the next few weeks for a customer. Vero 18 based, 14.1 max, espimated output per emitter. dimmable too about 6.6w covering about .66 sqaure foot. Should be 47-55% efficient depending on what the final dimming level ends up being.

This is one arena where I think SMD leds may shine. From a retail perspective there may be more to gain by cramming more plants into the same space then there would be saving on electricity. Cobs can be driven soft enough to avoid bleaching, but the setup cost get's prohibitive. For an individual, I think highly efficient cobs or the window would be ideal.
 
OneHitDone

OneHitDone

Well-Known Member
Do any of the single diode led's put out the spectrums that the cobs do by themselves?
That is 3000k, 5000k, 6500k etc
Or does it take more than one color to get the job done?
 
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