Joe Legal Vs. Jose Illegal

S

slomoking13

Well-Known Member
Some of you may have seen this e-mail that has been going around. If not, here it is.

Joe Legal vs. Jose Illegal

Here is an example of why hiring illegal aliens is not economically
productive for the State of California ...

You have 2 families..."Joe Legal" and "Jose Illegal". Both families have 2
parents, 2 children and live in California. "Joe Legal" works in
construction, has a Social Security Number, and makes $25.00 per hour with
payroll taxes deducted...."Jose Illegal" also works in construction, has
"NO" Social Security Number, and gets paid $15.00 cash "under the table".

Joe Legal...$25.00 per hour x 40 hours $1000.00 per week, $52,000 per
year.

Now take 30% away for state federal tax, Joe Legal now has $31,231.00

Jose Illegal...$15.00 per hour x 40 hours $600.00 per week, $31,200.00 per
year. Jose Illegal pays no taxes... Jose Illegal now has $31,200.00

Joe Legal pays Medical and Dental Insurance with limited coverage $1000.00
per month, $12,000.00 per year. Joe Legal now has $19,231.00

Jose Illegal has full Medical and Dental coverage through the state and
local clinics at a cost of $0.00 per year. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00

Joe Legal makes too much money is not eligible for Food Stamps or welfare.
Joe Legal pays for food $1,000.00 per month, $12,000.00 per year. Joe
Legal now has $7,231.00

Jose Illegal has no documented income and is eligible for Food Stamps and
Welfare. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.

Joe Legal pays rent of $1,000.00 per month. $12,000.00 per year. Joe Legal
is now in the hole minus (-) $4,769.00

Jose Illegal receives a $500 per month Federal rent subsidy. Jose Illegal
pays rent. $500.00 per month. $6,000.00 per year Jose Illegal still has
$31,200.00

Joe Legal now works overtime on Saturdays or gets a part time job after
work.

Jose Illegal has nights and weekends off to enjoy with his family.

Joe Legal's and Jose Illegal's children both attend the same school. Joe
Legal pays for his children's lunches while Jose Illegal's children get a
government sponsored lunch. Jose Illegal's children have an after school
ESL program. Joe Legal's children go home.

Joe Legal and Jose Illegal both enjoy the same Police and Fire Services,
but Joe paid for them and Jose did not pay.

Don't vote/support any politician that supports illegal aliens...Its PAST
time to take a stand for America and Americans!

Let me hear your thoughts, comments, rage, or approval :mrgreen:
 
S

slomoking13

Well-Known Member
haha.. chill out man, there is no need to come in here and call me an idiot. I feel the same way you guys do on the subject. Not everyone has to feel the exact same way about it though, or it wouldn't be as big of a problem as it is.
 
doc111

doc111

Well-Known Member
abe23 said:
Yea, those illegal immigrants have it too damn easy. Idiot....
Click to expand...
Nice comeback.:roll: I think you may be missing the point. The e-mail is pointing out that the illegal alien is benefiting from the same government programs and then some and isn't a productive member of society. Sure he works but he is being paid tax free so he doesn't put into Social Security or Medicare. He pays nothing in Federal or state income taxes. He doesn't put into the companies medical and dental plan. Yet he and his family are benefitting from programs which were never intended for people who are here illegally. Many are taking jobs away from citizens. I hear the argument from libs who say "They only work jobs that Americans won't or can't do." If this is the case why not allow enough temporary work visas to fill the demand for fruitpickers and other jobs deemed "undesirable" for the average American? Instead of insulting other members why not post something that explains why you think they are wrong? I don't understand this flagrant hostility toward people with opposing viewpoints. :confused:
 
abe23

abe23

Active Member
Sorry, man. I probably shouldn't have called you an idiot but a have a very short fuse when it comes to these kind of attitudes. I just love the irony of potgrowers ranting about undocumented immigration being wrong simply because it's illegal....
 
jeff f

jeff f

New Member
abe23 said:
Yea, those illegal immigrants have it too damn easy. Idiot....
Click to expand...
apparently easier than me. okay here is my proposal.

sponsor an illegal. we are accepting applications for illegal immigrant sponsors. whats involved? sponsors are responsible for making sure the illegals pay their "fair share" of taxes. you make sure they have proper occupancy rates in houses, ie not 10 families living under 1000 sqft. you are responsible for any and all "free services" that your protege uses. making sure their medical food stamps, free oil, etc are reimbursed. and you are responsible for any crimes they may commit. all you will need to do if "your" illegal murders someone you have to serve their time in order for them to continue to contribute to our wonderful system. thats it, thats all you gotta do.

email applications to www.iamadoogooder.com

i am sure that the site will be shut down from all the volunteers wishing to sponsor an illegal so be patient when trying to email. yes, idiots...
 
abe23

abe23

Active Member
doc111 said:
Nice comeback.:roll: I think you may be missing the point. The e-mail is pointing out that the illegal alien is benefiting from the same government programs and then some and isn't a productive member of society. Sure he works but he is being paid tax free so he doesn't put into Social Security or Medicare. He pays nothing in Federal or state income taxes. He doesn't put into the companies medical and dental plan. Yet he and his family are benefitting from programs which were never intended for people who are here illegally. Many are taking jobs away from citizens. I hear the argument from libs who say "They only work jobs that Americans won't or can't do." If this is the case why not allow enough temporary work visas to fill the demand for fruitpickers and other jobs deemed "undesirable" for the average American? Instead of insulting other members why not post something that explains why you think they are wrong? I don't understand this flagrant hostility toward people with opposing viewpoints. :confused:
Click to expand...
Wrong....it's actually the exact opposite. Most people who are here illegally use false or stolen social security numbers. They pay the same payroll taxes and social security taxes through their employers but generally DO NOT receive any medicare or social security benefits. If an employer hires someone illegally, whether they are a citizen or not, is a different story.

You are absolutely right that the "they do jobs americans won't" argument is bullshit. What you're also right about is that there needs to better legal immigration, like a 'guest-worker' program and more visas for highly skilled workers. The problem with this issue that a lot of people don't get is that our economy NEEDS these people because there isn't enough LEGAL immigration into the US. If a business, say microsoft or accenture, wants to hire highly skilled IT people from india or china. They have to apply for a visa, wait forever and then hope they win the lottery for one of the few visas that are given each year. What happens is that they just bypass the problem altogether and open offices and labs in bangalore or beijing.

To his credit, bush actually tried to get something done about this (remember 'comprehensive' immigration reformbut he couldn't because of the anti-illegal crowd in the republican party.
 
doc111

doc111

Well-Known Member
abe23 said:
Wrong....it's actually the exact opposite. Most people who are here illegally use false or stolen social security numbers. They pay the same payroll taxes and social security taxes through their employers but generally DO NOT receive any medicare or social security benefits. If an employer hires someone illegally, whether they are a citizen or not, is a different story.

You are absolutely right that the "they do jobs americans won't" argument is bullshit. What you're also right about is that there needs to better legal immigration, like a 'guest-worker' program and more visas for highly skilled workers. The problem with this issue that a lot of people don't get is that our economy NEEDS these people because there isn't enough LEGAL immigration into the US. If a business, say microsoft or accenture, wants to hire highly skilled IT people from india or china. They have to apply for a visa, wait forever and then hope they win the lottery for one of the few visas that are given each year. What happens is that they just bypass the problem altogether and open offices and labs in bangalore or beijing.

To his credit, bush actually tried to get something done about this (remember 'comprehensive' immigration reformbut he couldn't because of the anti-illegal crowd in the republican party.
Click to expand...
Some use stolen SSN's and some don't even bother. Most of the construction around here is non-union so it's a lot of mom and pop independent type companies. Same with landscaping and agriculture. Most of these businesses hire them off the street and pay cash. The ones who work in restaurants and grocery stores are paying taxes, you're right. This problem has a fairly simple solution but I don't think many would bother with the hassle or bureaucracy of going thru the proper channels. I'm afraid it's a no win situation. :-(
 
S

slomoking13

Well-Known Member
abe23 said:
Sorry, man. I probably shouldn't have called you an idiot but a have a very short fuse when it comes to these kind of attitudes. I just love the irony of potgrowers ranting about undocumented immigration being wrong simply because it's illegal....
Click to expand...
hey man, no harm no foul, i understand why i gets you so upset. I felt like joining border patrol after i read that email. The only way we can ever do anything about it though is if people are properly informed about what's really happening, and how it affects them. There are too many nieve people out there that don't think they are affected by things like this but they too are truly missing the point. If you pay taxes you are affected by this.. period. People respond to incentive, so we have to find a way to create less incentive for illegal aliens to come accross the border by somehow making these services unavailable to them and create higher incentive for employers to hire all U.S. citizen and legal immigrant employees most likely through business tax cuts. And for the leftover jobs which liberals say nobody wants.. well if nobody truly wants them, then we could look into work sponsor visas where they are legally allowed to come here and work but they are taxed like everyone else and thus able to take advantage of the same public goods and services we do.
 
upnorth2505

upnorth2505

New Member
Here is an issue that I am totally on the side of the right. It is apalling that our tax dollars go to people that do not pay anything in! Even if they do pay in taxes, they are not citizens and are stealing jobs that Americans could be working. I have heard the BS that these are jobs that Americans are too lazy to do. Not true. Our country's citizens are hardworking and always have been.

I'm not sure if it is possible, but isn't there a way to deport them all? One thing I wonder though. . .Do any politicians have the guts that it takes to come down HARD on the businesses that hire illegals?
 
S

slomoking13

Well-Known Member
i'm tired of giving businesses tax cuts so that they won't pull out of the country and produce elsewhere. the philosophy is that they will help us out in return if we let them make more money (by giving back to the community and hiring american citizens). But then the businesses just look the other way by turning around and hiring illegal immigrants just to make more money and pay even less taxes. If we want to solve the problem, we have no choice but to come down on the employers.
 
jeff f

jeff f

New Member
slomoking13 said:
i'm tired of giving businesses tax cuts so that they won't pull out of the country and produce elsewhere. the philosophy is that they will help us out in return if we let them make more money (by giving back to the community and hiring american citizens). But then the businesses just look the other way by turning around and hiring illegal immigrants just to make more money and pay even less taxes. If we want to solve the problem, we have no choice but to come down on the employers.
Click to expand...
while i understand this sentiment, its not really correct. business moves wherever it needs to to remain profitable. period. if its profitable to be in the US, they stay in the US. if its more profitable to be in china, they move to china.

the US has the most aggressive business taxation in the industrial world.....pretty sure thats correct. if not, its damn high taxation. then throw in the ridiculous other nonsense licenscing, fines, fees...you quickly see how we are missing the competetive boat.

if you are an investor in a business (stocks or banking loans etc) and you can get 2 percent on your money or 8 percent, which will you take? it really is that simple.
 
ImTheFireMan

ImTheFireMan

Well-Known Member
i cant be mad at a man for wanting to make a better life for him and his family and using resources that our government provides to him.
 
jeff f

jeff f

New Member
ImTheFireMan said:
i cant be mad at a man for wanting to make a better life for him and his family and using resources that our government provides to him.
Click to expand...
exactly. and thats why the 'system' needs fixing. the system shouldnt allow it. thats why when you see craziness going on you need to fight it at the ballot box and with the people you come in contact with. i always discuss politics with friends family and work. i never let a chance go by when someone chimes in about some benefit or whatever. i explain to them what is really going on and where the money comes from.

when my daughter watches spongbob and they make a stupid statement about globabl warming i pause the show, and correct the information she heard and allow her to continue to watch. you wouldnt beleive some of the conversations that spurs. and she loves it and tells her little buddies. its really something to see.

and do it all NOT in an in your face way, but in a kind friendly way. and people really enjoy the back and forth on an issue. its fun. and sometimes you may give out some wrong facts. make sure in that case you always get back to that person and explain that particular mistake. never want to hand out erounous facts if you can help it.

i am doing my part the best i can. and it is definitely making a difference. you do this for 2 or 3 weeks you will have people coming to you to ask whats going on with this issue. kinda like teaching them how to be a conservative. another thing, try not to be the one who brings it up. unless its an issue that is so pressing, like healthcare thing, dont bring politics up. you will have plenty of oppurtunity.

another thing i do is if 2 people are talking and hitting the nail right on the head, i dont say a word.
 
Rob Roy

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
slomoking13 said:
Some of you may have seen this e-mail that has been going around. If not, here it is.

Joe Legal vs. Jose Illegal

Here is an example of why hiring illegal aliens is not economically
productive for the State of California ...

You have 2 families..."Joe Legal" and "Jose Illegal". Both families have 2
parents, 2 children and live in California. "Joe Legal" works in
construction, has a Social Security Number, and makes $25.00 per hour with
payroll taxes deducted...."Jose Illegal" also works in construction, has
"NO" Social Security Number, and gets paid $15.00 cash "under the table".

Joe Legal...$25.00 per hour x 40 hours $1000.00 per week, $52,000 per
year.

Now take 30% away for state federal tax, Joe Legal now has $31,231.00

Jose Illegal...$15.00 per hour x 40 hours $600.00 per week, $31,200.00 per
year. Jose Illegal pays no taxes... Jose Illegal now has $31,200.00

Joe Legal pays Medical and Dental Insurance with limited coverage $1000.00
per month, $12,000.00 per year. Joe Legal now has $19,231.00

Jose Illegal has full Medical and Dental coverage through the state and
local clinics at a cost of $0.00 per year. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00

Joe Legal makes too much money is not eligible for Food Stamps or welfare.
Joe Legal pays for food $1,000.00 per month, $12,000.00 per year. Joe
Legal now has $7,231.00

Jose Illegal has no documented income and is eligible for Food Stamps and
Welfare. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.

Joe Legal pays rent of $1,000.00 per month. $12,000.00 per year. Joe Legal
is now in the hole minus (-) $4,769.00

Jose Illegal receives a $500 per month Federal rent subsidy. Jose Illegal
pays rent. $500.00 per month. $6,000.00 per year Jose Illegal still has
$31,200.00

Joe Legal now works overtime on Saturdays or gets a part time job after
work.

Jose Illegal has nights and weekends off to enjoy with his family.

Joe Legal's and Jose Illegal's children both attend the same school. Joe
Legal pays for his children's lunches while Jose Illegal's children get a
government sponsored lunch. Jose Illegal's children have an after school
ESL program. Joe Legal's children go home.

Joe Legal and Jose Illegal both enjoy the same Police and Fire Services,
but Joe paid for them and Jose did not pay.

Don't vote/support any politician that supports illegal aliens...Its PAST
time to take a stand for America and Americans!

Let me hear your thoughts, comments, rage, or approval :mrgreen:
Click to expand...
So where's the bad guy in this story?
One could use your post as an illustration why the government taxation is wrong.

What really happened? The product of a
"legal" worker was taken from him and redistributed by the government.

An "illegal worker" works under the table. I don't blame him, he has to eat and at least he's WILLING TO WORK. Why would somebody hire an illegal? That's easy. To avoid the HEAVY CONFISCATORY tax imposed by the government. Eliminate the tax, let employers hire whomever they want, the free market will flourish, prices will be lower, consumers will benefit.
 
S

slomoking13

Well-Known Member
Rob Roy said:
So where's the bad guy in this story?
One could use your post as an illustration why the government taxation is wrong.

What really happened? The product of a
"legal" worker was taken from him and redistributed by the government.

An "illegal worker" works under the table. I don't blame him, he has to eat and at least he's WILLING TO WORK. Why would somebody hire an illegal? That's easy. To avoid the HEAVY CONFISCATORY tax imposed by the government. Eliminate the tax, let employers hire whomever they want, the free market will flourish, prices will be lower, consumers will benefit.
Click to expand...
1. well, i think the politicians that we have elected are the bad guys here (note the message at the end of the email). they are ultimately the ones that are allowing it to happen due to the policies and the loopholes they have left.

2. i think you are partially right on the second point. Yes, part of the product was taken from the legal worker and redistributed but the other part was directly distributed to an illegal worker who paid nothing into the "redistributed sum" if you will, which ultimately diminishes our product or we keep raising taxes.

3. I'm not too sure how to approach your point of eliminate the tax. but i don't think it will make the prices go down. A lot of companies pass their increase in expenses on to the consumers as it is and all they really care about in the end is profit margin and bottom line. If they can produce cheaper and sell at the same price, that is a higher profit margin.. why would you just want to lower your price if people will still pay the same price not knowing you made it cheaper with illegal immigrant labor?

BTW, i like this discussion. I'm starting to see angles and dimensions to the problem that i really haven't thought of yet. keep the ideas and opinions comin guys!
 
R

redivider

Well-Known Member
to the OP, or the opening poster...

i agree, illegal immigrants have to go. period. no if and's or buts. but they don't have it that easy. and NO illegal immigrant makes 15 bux an hour.

i work part-time and there are 4 illegal immigrants working there. they make 45 bux a day. they work from 8 in the morning, til 3-4am. they get monday off. i once asked a lady if she'd been working since early (it was 1am, i went in at 12pm and thought i had it rough, she said no, today i was able to sleep in, came in at 9am)they take the bus to work and back. that basically means they go to work, get out, go home, sleep 2-3 hours, get up to catch the bus, sleep an extra 45 minutes on the way to work. start working again.

just FYI....
 
upnorth2505

upnorth2505

New Member
Rob Roy said:
An "illegal worker" works under the table. I don't blame him, he has to eat and at least he's WILLING TO WORK. Why would somebody hire an illegal? That's easy. To avoid the HEAVY CONFISCATORY tax imposed by the government. Eliminate the tax, let employers hire whomever they want, the free market will flourish, prices will be lower, consumers will benefit.
Click to expand...
Everyone needs to pay taxes, people AND companies. That is the cost of providing the necessary infrastructure we need to function as a society. How much tax should be eliminated to business (and people)? Certainly some. But without government, no streets, no bridges, no social security, no nothing. The companies that hire illegals are ripping-off the tax payers--you and I.

To let employers "hire whomever they want" is a joke. If you want to see our country rapidly decline to a 3rd-world nation, then sure, this is the way to go. Fuck, Bill Clinton already started this with NAFTA. You want to take that crap further?

The idea that everything will be groovy if we just don't tax or regulate businesses is absurd. Even Milton Freidman (the greatest free market monetarist economist of our time), has conceeded that intervention is sometimes necessary.

It all comes down to spillover costs--costs that you and I absorb (pollution, unemployment, development of infrastructure, etc) when there is zero regulation. Of course, ultimately we pay as consumers in the end. But at least we get to vote with dollars.

Unlimited free trade, NAFTA, etc. can be a danger. How do you compete with a country that allows their citizens to be paid $1 a day? And who dump raw sewage in our oceans?

Obviously, we can't. Which just goes to point out that society, businesses, etc. need some governance. :neutral:
 
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