Is it better to make your own nutrients or to buy premix nutrients like foxfarm

ShirkGoldbrick

Active Member
Help? Lol I was just showing that the zinc hasn't killed it and that it's fine to diy nutes that high in zinc.

That is, until I realized this morning there's almost no nutes in the water. It appears my sample pot has some salt buildup and is registering higher conductivity than the reservoir. I'll have to redesign it..
 

Atomizer

Well-Known Member
Most plants will tolerate short term spikes, the issues appear as the elements build up in the res. If you start out with 10x the normal ppm of micro`s in a freshly mixed recirculating res, they may be 20x or 30x when the time comes to replace it. The imbalance between the macro`s and micro`s will increase over the life of the res. A good proportion of the cash spent on micronutrient chemicals will end up going down the drain..literally :)
 

shackleferd

Well-Known Member
Of course its cheaper and i get all my ingredients from ebay and lowes. Ive done side by side grows and they grow exactly the same and sometimes better than commercial products. I got most of my recipes from fatman, he has detailed simple instructions. Here is the one i use for coco coir. Sometimes you will end up with a small layer of junk at the bottom of the bottle if you let it sit for awhile, this is anti caking agents, it keeps stuff like potassium nitrate from balling up into a rock. These caking agents are sometimes found in commercial products as well. Nothing to worry about since its inert ingredients and will not harm plants. The amounts listed are in ounces and you mix each part a and b into one gallon bottles separately. If you want more recipes especially from commercial products let me know, I have them all. VERY IMPORTANT..always use warm distilled water when mixing. 50 bucks will give you a lifetime of nutes..trust me you will never run out. BTW..These ingredients also contains your micro nutes as well, it is everything your plants need to grow. What i also like about my homemade ingredients is that the ph is set exactly where i want it between 5.5 and 5.8, no need to buy expensive ph adjusters. In fact i hardly use my ph meter, its stable in the mix and in coir.

this is his COCO Coir recipe>

(1 gallon Part A & 1 gallon Part B of both formulas)

Coco Grow

This list below is not the ingredients but the amount of each element in ppms. Commercial brands show by %. Below this list are the ingredients in ounces per gallon.

Nitrogen 268
Phosphorus 89
Potassium 179
Magnesium 32
Calcium 315
Sulfur 43
Iron 10.00
Manganese 5.00 .
Boron 5.00
Zinc 5.00
Copper 1.00
Molbdnum 0.09

Ingredients are listed below in Ounces Per Gallon, this is a two part mix per growth stage and bloom stage.

Part A

Calcium Nitrate 20.8
Potassium Nitrate 1.2
Iron Chelate 1.35


Part B

Potassium Nitrate B 1.2
MonoPotassium Phosphate 5.6
Magnesium Sulfate 4.3
Manganese Sulfate .269
Boric Acid / Solubor .368
Zinc Sulfate .291
Copper Sulfate .059
Ammonium Molybdate .002

Volume of Stock Solutions 1
Dilution Rate 100
TDS 1596
EC 2.3
pH 5.8


Coco Bloom

ppm
Nitrogen 200
Phosphorus 200
Potassium 300
Magnesium 50
Calcium 231
Sulfur 66
Iron 10.00
Manganese 5.00
Boron 5.00
Zinc 5.00
Copper 1.00

Ounces

Part A

Calcium Nitrate 15.3
Potassium Nitrate 1.0
Iron Chelate 1.35



Part B
Potassium Nitrate B 1.0
MonoPotassium Phosphate 12.6
Magnesium Sulfate 6.7
Manganese Sulfate .269
Boric Acid / Solubor .368
Zinc Sulfate .291
Copper Sulfate .059
Ammonium Molybdate .002

Volume of Stock Solution 1
Dilution Rate 100
EC 2.3
TDS 1596
ph 5.5
 
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Atomizer

Well-Known Member
Using the same weights for both boric acid and solubor will yeild different results for boron, boric acid 4.81ppm, solubor 5.65ppm. No point weighing chemicals accurately if you dont get the target result.

The same applies to the chelated iron, knowing the weight isnt much help without knowing the Fe percentage, and to a lesser extent, the type of chelate used.

btw, the junk in the bottom of the bottle is likely to be insoluble magnesium phosphate created from the reaction between the MKP and the magnesium sulphate. The level of P in the B stock solution is 4x higher than what could be deemed as the average. The amount of anti caking agent in the KNO3 wouldnt amount to much considering the amount of KNO3 in the bottle.
If you want to do a test, put 0.748g of KNO3 in a glass beaker and top it up to 100ml with RO, see how much junk (anti caking agent) collects on the bottom. Then do another 100ml test using 9.437g of MKP and 5.018g of magnesium sulphate. These two chemicals are incompatible at high concentrations. Given the huge difference in chemical weight between the two tests, 0.748g/100ml vs 14.455g/100ml, which one d`ya reckon is likely to precipitate junk ;)
The weights and volumes are the same pro rata as in the stock solutions but use/waste less chemicals.
 
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churchhaze

Well-Known Member
Using the same weights for both boric acid and solubor will yeild different results for boron, boric acid 4.81ppm, solubor 5.65ppm. No point weighing chemicals accurately if you dont get the target result.

The same applies to the chelated iron, knowing the weight isnt much help without knowing the Fe percentage, and to a lesser extent, the type of chelate used.

btw, the junk in the bottom of the bottle is likely to be insoluble magnesium phosphate created from the reaction between the MKP and the magnesium sulphate. The level of P in the B stock solution is 4x higher than what could be deemed as the average. The amount of anti caking agent in the KNO3 wouldnt amount to much considering the amount of KNO3 in the bottle.
If you want to do a test, put 0.748g of KNO3 in a glass beaker and top it up to 100ml with RO, see how much junk (anti caking agent) collects on the bottom. Then do another 100ml test using 9.437g of MKP and 5.018g of magnesium sulphate. These two chemicals are incompatible at high concentrations. Given the huge difference in chemical weight between the two tests, 0.748g/100ml vs 14.455g/100ml, which one d`ya reckon is likely to precipitate junk ;)
The weights and volumes are the same pro rata as in the stock solutions but use/waste less chemicals.
Magnesium Sulfate and MKP can be used in the same stock solution. My 1 liter of my B solution uses 88.1g of MKP and 162g of MgSO4. It also includes MnSO4, NaBO4, and NaMoO4.

Hydrobuddy recommended all those chemicals be put in the B solution, and it so far it's been crystal clear.

Maybe the issue is he is using significantly higher levels of P? My solution is 50ppm P, and my stock solution is 400X concentrated. (10mL A + 10mL B + 4L of water should give EC of ~1.4)
 

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
Why do people keep trying to use fatman's recipe anyway. This is exactly why people think DIY nutes are so hard... copy a good recipe!

I'm sure even fatman (wherever he is) has long since moved on. I know I've moved on from my first recipes.
 

shackleferd

Well-Known Member
Using the same weights for both boric acid and solubor will yeild different results for boron, boric acid 4.81ppm, solubor 5.65ppm. No point weighing chemicals accurately if you dont get the target result.
Im sure a little more would not be a problem especially when micro nutes are involved. You must be careful when it comes to the big three such as nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium. I actually grew a plant in azomite which is loaded with micro nutes.

"The same applies to the chelated iron, knowing the weight isnt much help without knowing the Fe percentage, and to a lesser extent, the type of chelate used."

This is where the nute calculator comes in handy, Every time i bought chelated iron it always list the %. In some states it is against the law if the label does not show the exact percentage. BTW.. DO NOT EVER use EDTA chelated Iron, it is actually toxic to plants. The best type of chelated iron to use is dtpa chelated iron.
 
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shackleferd

Well-Known Member
Why do people keep trying to use fatman's recipe anyway. This is exactly why people think DIY nutes are so hard... copy a good recipe!

I'm sure even fatman (wherever he is) has long since moved on. I know I've moved on from my first recipes.

Ive been making my own nutes for 10 years and never had one issue or problem with fatmans or others i copied from the internet. I even made my own, the nute calculator is great for this. I would rather make your own but fatman recipe keeps it simple for the beginner "ounces per gallon" which is why i posted his. Fatman also list the exact ingredients of most of your commercial brands so there is no need to figure it out unless you want to check his numbers. The comparison grows between the expensive commercial brands and my diy nutes show no difference. The only time i had a cloudy mixture was when i used lowes stump remover as my potassium nitrate, it also left a small amount of sludge at the bottom so i stopped using stump remover and use nothing but laboratory grade potassium nitrate from my local pharmacy. I even combined my bottles just like the big companies, one bottle for grow and one for bloom and never had an issue with plants or some type of chemical reaction. The big fertilizer companies use the same chems listed in diy nutes, they just stick on a pretty label and mark up the price. I have heard all types of stuff they supposedly use like hormones, ph buffers, and so on. However If you look at the bottle of the big fertilizer companies most if not all manufacturers list the same exact ingredients on their over priced bottles and some even list the percentages of each chem "some states require this", its all the same stuff. Potassium nitrate is potassium nitrate, calcium nitrate is calcium nitrate and so on.
 
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churchhaze

Well-Known Member
Ive been making my own nutes for 10 years and never had one issue or problem with fatmans or others i copied from the internet. I even made my own, the nute calculator is great for this. I would rather make your own but fatman recipe keeps it simple for the beginner. Fatman also list the exact ingredients of most of your commercial brands so there is no need to figure it out unless you want to check his numbers. The comparison grows between the expensive commercial brands and my diy nutes show no difference. The only time i had a cloudy mixture was when i used lowes stump remover as my potassium nitrate, it also left a small about of sludge at the botton so i stopped using stump remover and use nothing but laboratory grade potassium nitrate from my local pharmacy. Ive mixed all types of fertilizer chemicals and even combined the two parts a and b into one permanent bottle without any problems, but to be safe i use this bottle for tomatoes and other garden plants. Never had an issue or some type of chemical reaction.
If you have really been doing this for 10 years, why would you suggest fatman for beginners with it's 5ppm of zinc, 10ppm iron, 5ppm Mn, and 5ppm B. Those are all way too high. Even his "Grow" level of P is way too high. 60ppm is really the highest P should ever be, with 30ppm being the lowest. His Ca:Mg ratio's are terrible also. Too much Ca, especially in "grow".

Why not suggest Hoagland, or Resh, or a university of florida recipe, or another well known proven recipe rather than one that "works", but is far from ideal as a starter?
 

shackleferd

Well-Known Member
If you have really been doing this for 10 years, why would you suggest fatman for beginners with it's 5ppm of zinc, 10ppm iron, 5ppm Mn, and 5ppm B. Those are all way too high. Even his "Grow" level of P is way too high. 60ppm is really the highest P should ever be, with 30ppm being the lowest. His Ca:Mg ratio's are terrible also. Too much Ca, especially in "grow".

Why not suggest Hoagland, or Resh, or a university of florida recipe, or another well known proven recipe rather than one that "works", but is far from ideal as a starter?
Too much calcium? iron? mn? and etc....for real? Ive drowned plants in calmag, ive grown plants in almost pure azomite and calcium that contains nothing but micronutes..off the scale type of micronutes. Never had a problem, to each his own i guess. The only problem i had when starting this was adding too much nitrate/nitrogen. Ive grown plants in bad beginners batches with really high potassium, grow went perfect in fact some of your commercial products have a way higher p ratio. I like fatmans recipe because its higher in calcium, iron, and it has a stable ph of around 5.5- 5.8. It saves you from buying ph adjusters and products such as calmag. However churchhaze since you dont like fatmans stuff ill post the commercial recipes.
 
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shackleferd

Well-Known Member
This is based upon an analysis of bottled GH micro and bloom combined on a 1 to 2 , so: N=5, P=10, K=9 and M=3
i.e the Lucas Formula

Amounts are in Ounces: Final ppm each nutrient: N=176, P=133, K=300, M=100, Calcium=166
Part A.
Calcium Nitrate 75.3
Iron Chelate 2.25

Part B.
Mono Potassium Phosphate 104.8
Magnesium Sulfate 67.4

Trace Part B.
Manganese Sulfate 0.448
Boric Acid 0.085
Zinc Sulfate 0.009
Copper Sulfate 0.003
Ammonium Molybdate 0.0014


This recipe is for a x100 concentrate. That means a combination of 2.5 gallons of Part A. And 2.5 gallons of Part B to which the trace nutrients are added. With all mixed to gether in a dry mix you have the dry mix equivalent of Floro Nova Bloom without the added humus.

This should cost about $35 to mix up. ie about $7 per gallon.
 

shackleferd

Well-Known Member
This recipe is based upon an analysis of bottled GH micro and bloom combined on a 1 to 2 , so: N=5, P=10, K=9 and M=3
i.e the Lucas Formula

Amounts are in Ounces: Final ppm each nutrient: N=176, P=133, K=300, M=100, Calcium=166
Part A.
Calcium Nitrate 75.3
Iron Chelate 2.25

Part B.
Mono Potassium Phosphate 104.8
Magnesium Sulfate 67.4

Trace Part B.
Manganese Sulfate 0.448
Boric Acid 0.085
Zinc Sulfate 0.009
Copper Sulfate 0.003
Ammonium Molybdate 0.0014


This recipe is for a x100 concentrate. That means a combination of 2.5 gallons of Part A. And 2.5 gallons of Part B to which the trace nutrients are added. With all mixed to gether in a dry mix you have the dry mix equivalent of Floro Nova Bloom without the added humus.

This should cost about $35 to mix up. ie about $7 per gallon.
 

Atomizer

Well-Known Member
Im sure a little more would not be a problem especially when micro nutes are involved. You must be careful when it comes to the big three such as nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium.

The big three are taken up in much larger quantities so the opposite is true, you have less room for error with micro`s because the amounts are so small to begin with. Chemists are meticulous, they don`t do "near enough, the boric/solubor difference is huge, might as well be measuring in teaspoons, tablespoons and small handfuls, not hundredths of a gram :)

"The same applies to the chelated iron, knowing the weight isnt much help without knowing the Fe percentage, and to a lesser extent, the type of chelate used."

This is where the nute calculator comes in handy, Every time i bought chelated iron it always list the %. In some states it is against the law if the label does not show the exact percentage. BTW.. DO NOT EVER use EDTA chelated Iron, it is actually toxic to plants. The best type of chelated iron to use is dtpa chelated iron.

Thats my point, theres no mention of the chelating agent or Fe%, a chemist would list them. This recipe is supposed to be plug and play for beginners so there shouldnt be any need to use a nute calculator. :)
 

shackleferd

Well-Known Member
Most soils especially around here are loaded down with iron "178 ppm!!!" and calcium so much so that in some parts the dirt is actually red, farmers love it. The amount you are concerned about is 5-10ppm we can argue small amounts all day long but the truth to the matter is that it can be 50 or more times that amount and not effect anything, some commercial fertilizers and soil are even higher than that which can be at 5% or more "iron enriched potting soil". So adding a little more iron chelate or micronutes will not be a problem. The only time i have ever seen it become a problem is when there is a lack of micronutes and not the other way around. Ive also seen plants grow in 100% pure calcium at work. Back in the day we made drive ways out of pulverized oyster and clam shells..plants loved it..lol. However if you are still paranoid about the miniscule amounts of iron, calcium, and other micronutes i do suggest you pull out and learn how to use the nute calculator and use my recipes as a guide.
 
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churchhaze

Well-Known Member
That's why soil shouldn't be 5.8 pH.

And 178ppm calcium is not the same thing as 178ppm iron. 178ppm calcium is perfectly reasonable level of calcium for hydroponics.

How about this... how about you just uses the correct levels and stop insisting that noobs use toxic levels of P, Mn, B, Zn, and Fe?
 
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Atomizer

Well-Known Member
This recipe is based upon an analysis of bottled GH micro and bloom combined on a 1 to 2 , so: N=5, P=10, K=9 and M=3
i.e the Lucas Formula

Amounts are in Ounces: Final ppm each nutrient: N=176, P=133, K=300, M=100, Calcium=166
Part A.
Calcium Nitrate 75.3
Iron Chelate 2.25

Part B.
Mono Potassium Phosphate 104.8
Magnesium Sulfate 67.4

Trace Part B.
Manganese Sulfate 0.448
Boric Acid 0.085
Zinc Sulfate 0.009
Copper Sulfate 0.003
Ammonium Molybdate 0.0014


This recipe is for a x100 concentrate. That means a combination of 2.5 gallons of Part A. And 2.5 gallons of Part B to which the trace nutrients are added. With all mixed to gether in a dry mix you have the dry mix equivalent of Floro Nova Bloom without the added humus.

This should cost about $35 to mix up. ie about $7 per gallon.
I suggest you get the nute calculator out, run the numbers again and see if it matches what you posted. I guess your plants are already dead so an error of a few hundred ppm doesnt bother them lol
 
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churchhaze

Well-Known Member
It won't be easy but good luck. MNS mixes their own but dudes been breeding a good 20 years.
It's like making cookies... you measure you the ingredients and pour them into 2 bottles, a and b. The biggest issue is finding a good recipe... and trusting it. It's more of a mind game than anything else.
 

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
I'd show you my new recipe (i guess i probably will anyway), but why would you trust mine more than this other guy claiming he's been making nutrients for "10 years" yet ended up abandoning his research when fatman posted his recipe to convert to fatmans? Bullshit!

There are so many good hydroponic recipes you can use, for example, the ones from university of florida for tomatoes, or howard resh tomato. Why start with such garbage like 5ppm zinc fatman.... with a set weight in oz of boric acid OR sodium borate? and "iron chelate"....
 

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
I might post my own DIY nutes threads soon now that I've upgraded to 10% Iron dtpa from iron sulfate, which allows me to have 2 stock solutions. (rather than keeping iron in a separate stock solution).

It's 10mL part A, 10mL part B to 1 gallon of water for 1.4EC full strength. (400x concentrated)
 
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