How to keep your reservoir cool

CDXX said:

For my dwc res with 15 gallons of water, I use the CoolWorks Ice Probe. It works VERY well, Chills the water to 10 degrees below the air temp (the air is about 80, and the water is just under 70). It is cheap, efficient, and easy to install. I was able to augment the unit's cooling ability to taking an additional clip fan, and pointing it at the heat sync. This additional airflow helps the unti chill more effectively. I'm planning on insulating my tub, and that should further increase the chilling effect. Here are some pictures:
View attachment 911981View attachment 911982

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That form of cooler is about about 1/10 as efficient as a cheap window air conditioner costing the same amount. For the cost I would just buy a seras $100 window air conditioner take thefan out and wrap some tubing around the heat exchanger (evaporator) and use a small pump to circulate water through it. Use a Ranco Temperture controller: http://www.etcsupply.com/ranco-etc111000000-digital-temperature-controller-p-86.html The small Coolworks Ice Probe just transfers heat to the air right outside the reservoir. It was made for removing heat from electronics not water reservoirs. It has since been foolishly adapted for and sold for cooling minature reef tanks. The Coolworks Ice Probe just means heating the plant room and thereby reheating the reservoir. It also has teissue that it by rules of physics is suppod sedto remove heat from a hotter area to a cooler area. Usually a reservoir has nearly the same water temperature as the growing area where it is sitting. This makes it even less efficient. Moving heat from ana rea at the same temo ps is not a design fetaureof a Peltier (thermoelectric) cooler. That is why it has the extra fan and large numerous fins to try to take davantage of even the slighest temp difference from the hot side to the cool side. Try to get one of these expensive toys to try to pump heat from a reservoir lower than the room temp. It will work backwards.

Without a thermostat the iceprobe runs continously. The amount of cooling it does while running is adjustable but that just means if you adjust it for removing a set anmount of heat while the lights are on it still runs at that same rate while the light are out. You can crudely adjust for that by running it off your light timer.

Fatman,

what type of hydro system do you think is most efficient?

Large chamber cyclic aero. For SOG use HP aero or air atomized. For larger plants or a little slower growing larger SOG plants nedium pressure cyclic aero. For indoor growing of really large trees large trees outdoor grows with multiple drip irrigation emmitors. It is not really possible to efficiently light thick bsuhy tress with indoor lighting sio the hydro method can be simple flood methods or drip methods unless you can afford lots of lighting, air conditioniong dehumifification and lighting. If that was possible I would use medium pressure deep chamber cyclic aero. For a not so efficient hydro I would recommend spray down tables that are free draining using inert non absorbent well draining media, like rounded pepples, marboes small bio balls rubber mulch. Not hydroton or rock wool or peatmoss, coconut fibers or vermiculite. Definitely not DWC or bubbleponics. They only really good such units require too much wattage to operate as they require large amounts of circulation and air to produce the same results as a more chepaly built operated/maintained HP aero in deep chambers. Actually in between the HP aero and the performance of a medium pressure aero in very large tubes or deep chambers. Medium pressure aero can grow larger plants then the top of the line DWC. The best DWC also bonzai the plants more like HP aero rather than Medium pressure aero.

Small tube low pressure aero and small tube or small tray NTF are junk and quite commonly no better than the typical DWC and Bubbleponic systems. These five methods very commonly experience extreme root rot problems.

Do you have any pictures of these pressured aero or where i can start getting a good reading off it? I would love to see some of your set-up, with your knowledge i am eager to see what you have running.

I quit posting photos on line after my last felony manufacturing conviction 9 years ago. There are only a few HP aero photos in this forum in the aqua pod forum and even he has quit posting photos. I am quite sure if he thought the moderators would pull those photos they would be pulled. It is a 100 page plus thread and it is less than 5 months old. Most info such as links to government sites and research papers are passed via PM among st the regular posters Boy in the open forum. The sites tend to be pulled down quickly when a link is posted to them in the open forum. Just read their regularly and ask questions if your confused or don't find the info you want. There are even a few posters from the Middle East and South America. Don't expect much in the way of photos other than when the thread first opened. Most others their also have some "strong on line personalities"

What exactly do you mean by deep chamber aeroponics tub? How deep or large are you talking about? I use a botanicare 7 in (?) deep tub for my aero setup. It's definetely not HP aero, I just use a 950 gph pump with it. Also, when you said that rez temp is not an issue, what would the alternatives be for improving said aero system? thanks for any help

aeroscroggrow said:

What exactly do you mean by deep chamber aeroponics tub? How deep or large are you talking about? I use a botanicare 7 in (?) deep tub for my aero setup. It's definetely not HP aero, I just use a 950 gph pump with it. Also, when you said that rez temp is not an issue, what would the alternatives be for improving said aero system? thanks for any help

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hi, I think he means TUBE, not tub

Running at least one perforated irrigation tube the length of the tubes just below the center of the tube if it is a small tub, The tube should run through approx the middle of the piled up root mass laying in the bottom of the tube. Plus always have a strip of silk screen cloth or root matting lining the bottom of your tube or trough. Once your roots reach thetube bottom it becomes a combination of a NTF and an aero sytem. Once the roots start piing up thickly in the bottom of the tube it is a very small amount AERO as only a little root is actually up suspened in air and being sprayed. The rest is not even really NTF as they point of NTF is to have a 10 mm layer of water flowing down the botton of a wide flat trough. Water DO typically only diffuses throuh about 10 mm of unmoving root mass, sand or dirt etc. This means a maximum of 10 to 20 mm of stacked roots if 10 mm of the water is flowing under the roots and therefore passing DO up through the roots. This is only the case though when the roots are spread out across the tube/trough in a thin layer though.

However with high stacked roots and no matting or silk screen 10 ml of water does not freely flow through the bottom of the tubes/troughs as the roots are to heavy and compress as they are saturated with water. The silk screen there fore helps by assuring there is water able to flow under the roots to at s least some extent. Most of the water actually just runs across the top of the mass of compacted roots. That means it can supply at max to the top 10 mm of roots. 10 m is approx 4/10 of an inch. So your systenm can at best supply good water with DO to the bottom 1/2 inch and the top half inch of compacted roots, plus what few roots are above the compacted root mass. Running one or two small perforated tubes spraying outwaterthrough the larger aero tubes means water with DO will also be delivered to the inside of the root mass. Normally what little water that penetrates into the center of the thick root mass is stripped of all its DO before all the roots get sufficient DO. This causes root death in amounts high enough to cause root rot to set in. Lots of dead roots in a area without oxygen means much bacterial growth and therefore faster greater amounts of rot. Simple 1/2" PVC platic tubes with a hole every few inches with water running constantly will mean much less chance of root rot and better growth.

To be a large tubes are for sod Aero 6" wide and 19.5 inches tall. For tall plants aero it means 6" wide and about 28 inches tall. Deep chambers are 2)" to 36" tall. I prefer 36" even for SOG.

There is only about 4% more DO in 64 degree F water than in 74 F (9.45 ppm verusus 9.08 ppm), there is only 21% percent more at 84 than at 64 degrees (9,45 verus 7.54 ppm). Plant roots do not even use all the DO in water with a DO of 3 or 4 ppm when the water is only suppling DO to a 10 ml layer. However water at even 9.45 ppm DO will not be supply enough oxyen for a thick mass of roots when it is very, very slowly moving through the roots in small quantities. So a lower temp is not the solution. The solution is if you have thick masses of roots get water into the inside of the root masses or grow with an aero system that has tall enough tubes where there are not thick masses of roots laying in the bottom of the tubes. If your growing NTF think 10" or 12 " wide throughs at least. Even then grow small quick plants at high temps using ventilation or CO2 and a dehumidifier.

Yes there are ways to deal with DWC systems to other than trying to maintain low temps to boost DO. The problem is not so much low DO or high temps but the problem of not getting adequate volumes of water with DO to the center of your root masses. Lowering the temp and slightly incresing the DO is not a solution as if that water still does not get to the center of the root masses in adequate volumes to carry the slightly increades DO you will still have the same problems. The samall amount ofbenefit in health to your plant roots due to the cooler temp water having a higher DO will actually be more due to a slower growing plants neding less DO rather than because of higher DO in the reservoir. It doesn't help to have a higher DO if the plants still do not get adequate enough water carrying DO. It doesn't make since to have intense lighting and lots of nutrients available if you going to grow slowly at cooler temps where the intense lighting and quality nutrients are just wasted due to cooler temps. I have seen also seen people using CO2 and dehumifirrs and air conditioning and running their rooms at 86 degrees temperatures but using a chiller to run a resrvoir temo at 68 degrees. Then they woder why their plants are still not growing fast or putting out high yields. Go figure.

And don't be afraid to use chlorox or hydrogen peroxide.

Thank you for that advice. I hate to play 20 questions but you seem like one of the few who knows how to actually grow mj. So you are saying that I would need a silk screen in the bottom of my tray? This is the one I use.
http://www.hydrofarm.com/pb_detail.php?itemid=944

It has a lid with 9 plants in it. I am currently using scrog for this grow. Where would I get a silk screen?

Also, I am using GH 3 part. I realize that commercially available nutes for mj are crap but I am not yet ready to mix my own. Is there any other combination (of gh) that you would use for aero?

thanks again for your input

Are you growing Ebb and Flow or AERO. Yor link is to trays that would mosy commonly be used for a small ebb and flow system. How are your nutrients supplied by flooding (fiiling the tray then letting it drain., or sprayed from misters andd freely draining out the tray. Is there a medium in the tray or are the roots suspended in air and also laying in the bottom of the tray. If it is the spraying non medium method then yes silking or root matting material would be advized as would irrigation pipes raised above the bottom of the trays to position them in about the middle of any stacked up root masses.

Silk screen is typically available in any city. Just look up silk screen printing or printing silkscreen in your phone book. Or it is availble on ebay. Root matting is aviable at horticutural shops on the web.

GH3 part is about as good as any other. The nutes are not really bad the systems they are used in are typically sad systems.

Try reading this thread. https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/268790-lucas-formula-recipe-scratch-really.html

I am currently using an aero system with 9 plants supported in 3 in. netcups with hydroton. I have a misting setup in the bottom of the tray that adequately supplies the roots with moisture. The water then drains back to a reservoir. Would you still recommend silk screen with this setup? And I have read that thread once but I will read it again, great info. Any other tips would be appreciated as this is my 1st grow. ( not counting growing my mother plants for cloning ) thanks

whats going on roll it up?? I need some feedback here.First time buyer from attitude and i need to know how long does it usually take to get to the east coast and should i be nervous about bein ripped off or are they legit...ordered on the 1st ~ g13 labs white widow ~ g13 labs blue venom femz..any one have any advise for the strains and for my worries about attitude...thank to all!!!!

GMBBOYZ said:

whats going on roll it up?? I need some feedback here.First time buyer from attitude and i need to know how long does it usually take to get to the east coast and should i be nervous about bein ripped off or are they legit...ordered on the 1st ~ g13 labs white widow ~ g13 labs blue venom femz..any one have any advise for the strains and for my worries about attitude...thank to all!!!!

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Are you lost? What are you posting such a question here. Take it up with the seller not in the forums. We can seldom get the moderators to read the forums yet alone seed sellers or rollitup administrators.

Believe the Fatman!!

Just wana thank the Fatman for telling us what we need to know. But I gota say its a hard pill to swallow with all the other info out there. But I forced myself to listen ( when nothing anyone else was saying about water temp was working ). So I abandon water temp torture for an exacting dose of hygrozyme in 20 mins Ph was stabile and Im sleeping more. But I need to improve my system. Fatman U da man!

aeroscroggrow said:

I am currently using an aero system with 9 plants supported in 3 in. netcups with hydroton. I have a misting setup in the bottom of the tray that adequately supplies the roots with moisture. The water then drains back to a reservoir. Would you still recommend silk screen with this setup? And I have read that thread once but I will read it again, great info. Any other tips would be appreciated as this is my 1st grow. ( not counting growing my mother plants for cloning ) thanks

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If there is a thick stack of roots laying in the bottom of the tray then yes I would recommend silk screen or root matting. If there is a thick root layer I would suggest you get at least some small tubing (3/ tubing sold at Home depot or Lowes etc and drill a hole every few inches (say 1/16" in diameter) or buy some predrilled from a horticulural store (lazered holes) and run it through the approximatte center of the height of the layer up root mass every few inches apart and run water through it 24/7. After your present grow put in something more permanent. Sat 1/2" PVC pipes every few inchs apart the length of the tray. The holes can be very small, like 1/16 of an inch or smaller.

thanks I think I will go with the silk screen

jev12b said:

Just wana thank the Fatman for telling us what we need to know. But I gota say its a hard pill to swallow with all the other info out there. But I forced myself to listen ( when nothing anyone else was saying about water temp was working ). So I abandon water temp torture for an exacting dose of hygrozyme in 20 mins Ph was stabile and Im sleeping more. But I need to improve my system. Fatman U da man!

Click to expand...

I wish I could laon a DO meter to the duodters out their so they could test what I have written to see I am not bull*hitting but I am afraid I would not get my DO meters back to often. Just think of this: drill a very small hole into your aero tube or NTF tube/trough at the height of the center of the root mass laying stacked up on the bottom of the tube/trough. Stick a very small piece of tubing (say a interio diameter of 1/8" or smaller through the hole and into the roots masses center. The other end goesthrough a hole in a pill bootle lid so that water rins into the bottle. Realise it will increase a very slight bit in DO due to the oxygen in thebottle. After you collect about an inch of water test the DO. It will be at or very near zero. Check then the DO of the water leaving the drain. It will be very near the DO of the water entering the tube or trough.

My self I drilled a half inch diameter hole in 4" diameter aero tubes at three heights in the lying root masses and checked the DO at two foot intervals along the pipe. At all distances over about 5/8 of an inch below the top to within about 3/8" of the bottom of the roots masses that were 2.75" high on average and the measured DO was between 0.75 ppm and zero ppm with a slight decline from the beginning of the tube (1' from the non drain <higher> pipes end) to the drain side (1' from the drain end). And that was with a DO just over 9.0 as it entered the tubes from the pump. I used a large low velocity flow from a Danner pump (as is typical for volume and pressure used by the majority of aero growers) supplying 10 gph spray heads one per every 6" with 10' long PVC pipes for aero tubes. The plants were vegging SOG plants 15" to 17" in height and 4 weeks into a 6 week budding cycle. The DO of the combined water draining from the aero tube was 7.9 to 8.1 ppm. IE 2/3 of the roots were getting little to no DO.

fatman7574 said:

That form of cooler is about about 1/10 as efficient as a cheap window air conditioner costing the same amount. For the cost I would just buy a seras $100 window air conditioner take thefan out and wrap some tubing around the heat exchanger (evaporator) and use a small pump to circulate water through it. Use a Ranco Temperture controller: http://www.etcsupply.com/ranco-etc111000000-digital-temperature-controller-p-86.html The small Coolworks Ice Probe just transfers heat to the air right outside the reservoir. It was made for removing heat from electronics not water reservoirs. It has since been foolishly adapted for and sold for cooling minature reef tanks. The Coolworks Ice Probe just means heating the plant room and thereby reheating the reservoir. It also has teissue that it by rules of physics is suppod sedto remove heat from a hotter area to a cooler area. Usually a reservoir has nearly the same water temperature as the growing area where it is sitting. This makes it even less efficient. Moving heat from ana rea at the same temo ps is not a design fetaureof a Peltier (thermoelectric) cooler. That is why it has the extra fan and large numerous fins to try to take davantage of even the slighest temp difference from the hot side to the cool side. Try to get one of these expensive toys to try to pump heat from a reservoir lower than the room temp. It will work backwards.

Without a thermostat the iceprobe runs continously. The amount of cooling it does while running is adjustable but that just means if you adjust it for removing a set anmount of heat while the lights are on it still runs at that same rate while the light are out. You can crudely adjust for that by running it off your light timer.

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I can tell by your comments that you don't like the coolworks iceprobe lol. You're clearly experienced, so I'm not trying to challenge your expertise...but dude...it works really well, and for the price and ease of use, I'd say its better than almost any other option on the market. When I used the coolworks iceprobe, and insulated my reservoir, it will keep 15 gallons of water 20 degrees Fahrenheit cooler than the surrounding air. For what it's worth, I am buying an air conditioner, but that has more to do with using co2 than my res temp (I can't run outside vent fans and still use co2, so I need to air condition instead). So, all I'm saying, is that for my purposes, it made much more sense to get an $120 ice probe than a 300-400 dollar chiller, plus pumps, etc. As well, I don't even have the ice probe thermostat. I just let it run naturally, and it keeps things at the perfect temp, right around 65-68 degrees, regardless of the air temp (it got as hot as 90 inside once by accident).

Finally, while I could take apart an air conditioner, it was just a lot easier to use an ice probe. The ice probe costs around 120...the ac costs 100...the effort saved is worth $20 in my opinion. It takes maybe 2 minutes to install an iceprobe, and half of that time is spent drilling a hole. The heat it generates is really pretty negligible...it raised my cabinet temp by maybe 2 or 3 degrees, tops...which, considering the 20 degree water temp drop, is fine by me. As well...I'm not sure where you heard that it is less efficient than an air conditioner...but I think that is incorrect. An air conditioner will use a lot more energy than an iceprobe will...and while it might be more powerful, it's entirely unnecessary for only 15 gallons of water. It like using a semi truck to move 1 box of stuff.

Again, I'm not saying the ice probe is an ideal solution for a large scale hydro setup, but for what I'm doing, it is by far the best option, and I would recommend it to anyone else in my situation. The iceprobe is cheap, reliable (only 1 moving part, the fan), uses little energy, and works as advertised.

The one thing I will concede is that the ice probe doesn't work nearly as well when the reservoir is not insulated. It still dropped the reservoir about 6 or 7 degrees without insulation, but it is much more effective when used with insulation. However, insulating my reservoir was cheap ($6) and easy (only needed duct tape and scissors). And honestly, I think people should insulate their reservoirs anyways...it saves on cooling costs no matter what system you use, helps prevent light leaks, and helps maintain a more consistent water temperature.

In short, I feel that you are not giving the iceprobe nearly enough credit. When used properly, it offers easy, reliable performance at a good price. I plan on buying another one to chill a second reservoir in a month or two.

CDXX said:

I can tell by your comments that you don't like the coolworks iceprobe lol. You're clearly experienced, so I'm not trying to challenge your expertise...but dude...it works really well, and for the price and ease of use, I'd say its better than almost any other option on the market. When I used the coolworks iceprobe, and insulated my reservoir, it will keep 15 gallons of water 20 degrees Fahrenheit cooler than the surrounding air. For what it's worth, I am buying an air conditioner, but that has more to do with using co2 than my res temp (I can't run outside vent fans and still use co2, so I need to air condition instead). So, all I'm saying, is that for my purposes, it made much more sense to get an $120 ice probe than a 300-400 dollar chiller, plus pumps, etc. As well, I don't even have the ice probe thermostat. I just let it run naturally, and it keeps things at the perfect temp, right around 65-68 degrees, regardless of the air temp (it got as hot as 90 inside once by accident).

Finally, while I could take apart an air conditioner, it was just a lot easier to use an ice probe. The ice probe costs around 120...the ac costs 100...the effort saved is worth $20 in my opinion. It takes maybe 2 minutes to install an iceprobe, and half of that time is spent drilling a hole. The heat it generates is really pretty negligible...it raised my cabinet temp by maybe 2 or 3 degrees, tops...which, considering the 20 degree water temp drop, is fine by me. As well...I'm not sure where you heard that it is less efficient than an air conditioner...but I think that is incorrect. An air conditioner will use a lot more energy than an iceprobe will...and while it might be more powerful, it's entirely unnecessary for only 15 gallons of water. It like using a semi truck to move 1 box of stuff.

Again, I'm not saying the ice probe is an ideal solution for a large scale hydro setup, but for what I'm doing, it is by far the best option, and I would recommend it to anyone else in my situation. The iceprobe is cheap, reliable (only 1 moving part, the fan), uses little energy, and works as advertised.

The one thing I will concede is that the ice probe doesn't work nearly as well when the reservoir is not insulated. It still dropped the reservoir about 6 or 7 degrees without insulation, but it is much more effective when used with insulation. However, insulating my reservoir was cheap ($6) and easy (only needed duct tape and scissors). And honestly, I think people should insulate their reservoirs anyways...it saves on cooling costs no matter what system you use, helps prevent light leaks, and helps maintain a more consistent water temperature.

In short, I feel that you are not giving the iceprobe nearly enough credit. When used properly, it offers easy, reliable performance at a good price. I plan on buying another one to chill a second reservoir in a month or two.

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Thermoelectric junctions are generally only around 5&#8211;10% as efficient as the ideal refrigerator (Carnot cycle), compared with 40&#8211;60% achieved by conventional compression cycle systems (reverse Rankine systems using compression/expansion). Due to the relatively low efficiency, thermoelectric cooling is generally only used in environments where the solid state nature (no moving parts, maintenance-free) outweighs pure efficiency.
Peltier (thermoelectric) cooler performance is a function of ambient temperature, hot and cold side heat exchanger (heat sink) performance, thermal load, Peltier module (thermopile) geometry, and Peltier electrical parameters. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_cooling