How does God orchestrate such a perfect Symphony?

Rrog

Well-Known Member
subsequent experiments were designed to test if consciousness mattered. They isolated consciousness and removed it as a factor, and still found the same effect. If you remove a factor and still get the same outcome, then that factor had nothing to do with the outcome.
This is you saying "they still found the same effect," again you seem to tie together two different events and describe them as the same effect. They are two different events (you are describing) with two different effects.

At any rate, I'm not going to enter into a debate on this semantic point. Just letting you know. Nothing personal.
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
This is you saying "they still found the same effect," again you seem to tie together two different events and describe them as the same effect. They are two different events (you are describing) with two different effects.

At any rate, I'm not going to enter into a debate on this semantic point. Just letting you know. Nothing personal.
It seems you are already in a debate about the subject, unless you presume to talk without having to listen. I don't have to take it personally in order to disagree.

I think it's pretty clear that they are different events. That is, after all, the point of controlling for factors. We do something differently and see if it changes. If no change occurs, then it's a difference that makes no difference, aka an irrelevant factor. What you have not made clear is how this doesn't count as falsification of the idea that consciousness is a factor of the outcome. That is where your burden lies if you want to be taken seriously, and it's a mater of methodology, not semantics. If controlling for consciousness is not the proper way to test it as a factor, what is? If these experiments are not sufficient to exclude consciousness as a factor, then why? What did they get wrong?

Without offering such explanations, it sounds like you are simply saying that consciousness can only be observed as having an effect on reality when we don't look too carefully at it. When we look more carefully and don't see it, well that's just a different event. But to ignore carefulness is to admit that you do not value accuracy as much as confirmation. It's another way of saying you only want to look at the events which agree with your idea.
 

ThickStemz

Well-Known Member
Ok so a good friend of mine just passed. He shot himself in his truck while they were mudding. There's this one guy who used to pick on him that is apparently broken up with it and was with him; I'm thinking he said something to him that finally sent him over the edge. But the point is that just today I have noticed at least a hundred synchronicities that obviously point to a higher knowledge and purposeful arrangement.

So this is the question, or questions; does everything happen for a reason? And by reason I don't mean causality I mean a higher purpose, like everything that happens now is for a future purpose, it's like a perfect sequence the universe and the way it unfolds. And if everything does happen for a reason how in the flying fuck does the universe orchestrate it all, now that is infinite intelligence.

@tyler.durden @DaSprout @HeatlessBBQ @VegasWinner @skuba @mikek420 very interested in your opinions for or against me. @Heisenberg
This is like asking what mountains are for, or what trees are for. A child may say a tree's purpose is to scratch the back of large beras or mammals in the woods that can lean up against them.

If we look around, really sit back and think as hard as you can and as objectively as you can, what would a world look like that was made by a God that had a plan for our lives.

What would a world look like of it were just the result of chance and random occurrence?

Which world does ours most resemble?
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Ok so a good friend of mine just passed. He shot himself in his truck while they were mudding. There's this one guy who used to pick on him that is apparently broken up with it and was with him; I'm thinking he said something to him that finally sent him over the edge. But the point is that just today I have noticed at least a hundred synchronicities that obviously point to a higher knowledge and purposeful arrangement.

So this is the question, or questions; does everything happen for a reason? And by reason I don't mean causality I mean a higher purpose, like everything that happens now is for a future purpose, it's like a perfect sequence the universe and the way it unfolds. And if everything does happen for a reason how in the flying fuck does the universe orchestrate it all, now that is infinite intelligence.

@tyler.durden @DaSprout @HeatlessBBQ @VegasWinner @skuba @mikek420 very interested in your opinions for or against me. @Heisenberg

You maybe interested in reading about the following concepts:

Baader-Meinhof phenomenon (The frequency Illusion) http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Frequency_illusion

Confirmation Bias (similar to the frequency illusion) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Subjective Validation (includes the tendancy to interpret arbitrary "signs" as personally meaningful) http://skepdic.com/subjectivevalidation.html
 

New Age United

Well-Known Member

New Age United

Well-Known Member
You maybe interested in reading about the following concepts:

Baader-Meinhof phenomenon (The frequency Illusion) http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Frequency_illusion

Confirmation Bias (similar to the frequency illusion) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Subjective Validation (includes the tendancy to interpret arbitrary "signs" as personally meaningful) http://skepdic.com/subjectivevalidation.html
So if I understand correctly there are millions and millions of events taking place around us everyday and the fact that I gave meaning to a hundred or so synchronicities and co - incide - ence s is actually a lot more probable than I originally thought and is actually an illusion.

Every thing happens for a reason but not necessarily for a purpose, it is all just cause and effect taking place and it just so happened to form life. When you take into account the number of events that happen in the entire universe it is really no surprise that the catalyst for life did in fact take place and set off the chain reaction which resulted in the diversity of life we see today. Does that make sense?
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
So if I understand correctly there are millions and millions of events taking place around us everyday and the fact that I gave meaning to a hundred or so synchronicities and co - incide - ence s is actually a lot more probable than I originally thought and is actually an illusion.

Every thing happens for a reason but not necessarily for a purpose, it is all just cause and effect taking place and it just so happened to form life. When you take into account the number of events that happen in the entire universe it is really no surprise that the catalyst for life did in fact take place and set off the chain reaction which resulted in the diversity of life we see today. Does that make sense?
Well, as I do not know the details of the connections you noticed, I can only speak speculatively. But I think you've given us a fair summary of what I was getting at.

It's appropriate to notice that the one common factor in all of the connections you noticed is your brain, which happened to be preoccupied by an impressionable event at the time. From what we have observed and demonstrated, this is an expected function of human intellect. It doesn't serve us well if our brains are walking around confused and bewildered, and so the brain strives to make sense of things even if it means over-simplifying the world. It's more comforting, and therefore advantageous, to believe there is a mysterious force of some kind in control, rather than to think reality is rudderless. Further, these inclinations happen on a subconscious level despite any contrary conscious thoughts we may have, and so we struggle.
 

DaSprout

Well-Known Member
That woild he a.very simple.way of putting things. As.if explaining it to a.child. But your original train of thought threw in some other factors. Factors which made us.go down this rabbit hole of philosophical and theoretically scientific debate.

If you still have a question that needs to be approached. Please state it now.
 

New Age United

Well-Known Member
That woild he a.very simple.way of putting things. As.if explaining it to a.child. But your original train of thought threw in some other factors. Factors which made us.go down this rabbit hole of philosophical and theoretically scientific debate.

If you still have a question that needs to be approached. Please state it now.
No I think that pretty much resolves my questioning I think I have a much clearer view of things now thanks a lot everybody.
 

Gregor Eisenhorn

Well-Known Member
I've wondered the same thing.. God, or a primordial being is perfect in every way so even if something seems out of the ordinary or mindless to us, I still think it's all part of a certain plan, even if it takes a few years or even centruries for us to realize.

Bear with me for a moment here, I'll give an example. Let's say that hypothetically, there is an illness that is not well known, maybe due to lack of funds for research or simply ignorance of the masses. Hundreds of people die yearly (rare) from this illness as it ravages the organism and literally anyone can succumb to it. One day a famous or extremely kind person dies, one that had a family, lead a just and good life commited to the welfare of others around said human. Someone who had absolutely no "right" to die, implying that people die for a reason.

When he/she dies, some people will naturally become infuriated and ask themselves' "why? What has the power to take away someones life who didn't deserve to die? I want nothing to do with a "god" that acts like this." A possibility (one that happans often) is that the awareness of this illness becomes more and more embedded into the knowledge of the general public. Soon, maybe wealthy people contribute their wealh into the research for a cure. Later on if all goes well (this could take years, decades or even centuries) humans find a way to prevent, or perhaps slow the rate at whick someone dies when racaged by such an illness.

Therefore, out of that "injust and undeserving death" thousands, if not millions of people in the future have a chance to fight against this hypothetical illness, all thanks to the event that killed the famous person.

This is an extremely arbitrary notion, but I hope I was able to explain it in a understandble way.
 

New Age United

Well-Known Member
This is one base plan for the universe. To degrade. What we might see as death. In order for there to be a rebirth.
But does the universe actually have a plan or is it really just cause and effect and that is just the way it happens? is there a reason for matter to decay to give birth to new life? Perhaps god just engineered the world and let it be, and maybe he wasn't the most intelligent engineer so we see flaws in the design, but he made it work. And perhaps the death of stars gives way to black holes which collect matter and once critical mass is reached there is a new big bang, and so space and time are eeternally transforming. But I am seriously beginning to think that it is just cause and effect and things just happen the way they do.
 

DaSprout

Well-Known Member
What is perfection? That can only be defined by the the observer and circumstance. Cause and effect is still just a simple answer that defines your meaning. The sun shines. Plants take in light. They grow. Why? Because they take in light. Cause and effect. Even though we all know that there is alot more involved in the "process".
 

New Age United

Well-Known Member
What is perfection? That can only be defined by the the observer and circumstance. Cause and effect is still just a simple answer that defines your meaning. The sun shines. Plants take in light. They grow. Why? Because they take in light. Cause and effect. Even though we all know that there is alot more involved in the "process".
Of course I know that is a grand simplification and that there is a lot more involved, but I'm on my phone and don't feel like explaining the entire universe lol, if you wanted to cite everything it would be a 1000 page book just to explain the basics of biology, let alone the other Sciences.

By quoting process are you implying that there is in fact order in the universe?
 

DaSprout

Well-Known Member
Of course I know that is a grand simplification and that there is a lot more involved, but I'm on my phone and don't feel like explaining the entire universe lol, if you wanted to cite everything it would be a 1000 page book just to explain the basics of biology, let alone the other Sciences.

By quoting process are you implying that there is in fact order in the universe?
I wouldn't expect anyone to explain all processes of a subject which has already been discussed for countless millennia. That would be a fools gambit. But just over simplifying the matter shows a little disrespect to the subject also. It is as simple as you described. In a way. But it seems to me as though you are going down a hopeless route of thought and expectation. There is no such thing as perfection. It is an indefinable structure which changes with every whim and thought. There is a plan for everything. Nature has shown us that. Tomorrow can be your greatest day. Your worst. Or you might just die in your sleep tonight. Who knows? Does it even matter? Not really cuz right here. Right now. Your reading my post. That's all that matters.
 

New Age United

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't expect anyone to explain all processes of a subject which has already been discussed for countless millennia. That would be a fools gambit. But just over simplifying the matter shows a little disrespect to the subject also. It is as simple as you described. In a way. But it seems to me as though you are going down a hopeless route of thought and expectation. There is no such thing as perfection. It is an indefinable structure which changes with every whim and thought. There is a plan for everything. Nature has shown us that. Tomorrow can be your greatest day. Your worst. Or you might just die in your sleep tonight. Who knows? Does it even matter? Not really cuz right here. Right now. Your reading my post. That's all that matters.
We have the ability to think freely DaSprout and by sharing opinions and going down this "hopeless route of thought" we can further our understanding of physics and metaphysics, there are subjective truths after all. You have expressed metaphysics very well in this post and I am learning; I am just asking for your opinion what is wrong with that?
 

DaSprout

Well-Known Member
We have the ability to think freely DaSprout and by sharing opinions and going down this "hopeless route of thought" we can further our understanding of physics and metaphysics, there are subjective truths after all. You have expressed metaphysics very well in this post and I am learning; I am just asking for your opinion what is wrong with that?
There is nothing wrong with that at all. It's just from your posts and your route of questioning. I can detect that certain emotional undertone. Espespecially since this paricular thread began with your friends death. Which may actually be suicide. There is more to life. But sometimes you just have to accept it and live it.
 

New Age United

Well-Known Member
There is nothing wrong with that at all. It's just from your posts and your route of questioning. I can detect that certain emotional undertone. Espespecially since this paricular thread began with your friends death. Which may actually be suicide. There is more to life. But sometimes you just have to accept it and live it.
OK I understand that. The thing is I have spent the last 8 years of my life trying to stop thinking, now that I have mastered Zen I am looking to expand my mind and sharpen my thinking skills. I am an autodidact I have very little formal education and so I look for people more intelligent and more educated than me to help me learn, by asking for their opinions and debating. You should of seen how ignorant I was just 3 years ago before coming on this site. I honestly have to thank @tyler.durden and @Heisenberg for revealing my ignorance and allowing me to extinguish it. I owe a debt of gratitude to you guys you taught me a lot thank you.
 

DaSprout

Well-Known Member
I understand. I just don't sant you to walk into the that spiral of hopeless logic. I will give you my answer for this thread.
There are higher powers. Just from our own biology and scientifically determined creation. And our own laws of probability. There has to be.
Do these powers/intelligences need to care? Probably not to some extent. Any good father would help us learn from our mistakes. And give us what we are capable of understanding and learning. We choose whether or not to learn and listen.
Can any one call upon God if something happens? Or some blame him for wrong doings?
Sure. It's your free will to. But. Ultimately. We are here to learn and grow. Some lessons are hard learned. Those are the ones that boost us up to the next level.
We are here to feel it all. The full range of the emotional experience. If we didn't. We wouldn't be alive.
 

New Age United

Well-Known Member
There are higher powers. Just from our own biology and scientifically determined creation. And our own laws of probability. There has to be.
Just wanted to point it out to you DaSprout this is an argument from incredulity; just bc you can not possibly imagine it being any other way does not mean that is the truth. For instance I was once stuck on the idea that the DNA code absolutely had to be formed by an infinite intelligence, I'm gonna try to find a good article on it that explains how it may have formed it does not include any higher intelligence and actually makes a lot of sense and seems more natural and intuitive.

http://www.livescience.com/9546-dna-molecules-display-telepathy-quality.html
 
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