help me sort out potassium options?

ive got my timing changed and im trying out new methods

in the past ive always had all the plants in the space at the same age or timing of bloom so theyd all start and finish together

but as of late ive got them all at different stages and seeing how I like it to have small harvest more frequently

this has got me with plants at all different ages of completion and thus pots cooking the same.
to save time, one thing im trying out is for example;

I got two 20 gallon pots cooking that are amended and sit to cook

then when I get 2 plants harvested I take the soil from those two that just finished and combine it 50/50 with the 2 pots that had already been sit to cook

so the cooking pots are sorta front loaded with nutrient and then cut with the pots just coming out to harvest

so I can replant into 4 pots right away

the epsom

its only equivalent to a small amount in ppm

the idea being to use lower EC more frequently rather than higher amounts less frequently

the idea being the lower salinity feeds would be less disruptive to biology

I understand there is an accumulative effect and I ease off in later bloom to open up the K paths

im going to get all my pots blended so im working with one soil and then do a soil test and see where im at

the bone and feather and green sand where all used in thought to provide the long slower release nutes and maybe run the pots a couple grows with out recycling and just top dressings

ive just started working in the vermicompost into the recycled pots

as soon as I get that worked into the pots im going to some what no till for a couple consecutive grows

im not going 100% "no till" but im goin got try recycling every other or maybe every third if I can do it successfully

im4satori said:

im curious about your suggestion that Micro Nutrients needs change by stage, do you have any literature or plant tissue samples to show these changes? that would be interesting

Click to expand...

A little more on this and maybe some suggestions for you guys to experiment with if not all ready done

There is without question a relationship between Fe and Mn however there is an equal in importance with other micro nutrients that get over looked sometimes and one is Boron. easily underutilized and easily over utilized because it can be toxic. this is one reason why I say micro nutrients can be more effective if applied at different rates during the plants stages of life

For example ( I'll just use Boron) in the veg stage the plant is not looking for much 1.0 -1.3 maybe 1.5 but there is not a big need for it , now for some reason if its getting a much higher amount because of your feeding or its in your well water etc it will do more harm then good. but that doesn't go for each stage

moving into pre-flower - flower stage it wants a little more , however there is a 1-2 week window in the flowering stage, basically the 2 heaviest weeks of flower where the plants will need up to 3x + ( 4.5 -5.5 ) (even more depending on the plants ) the amount of Boron as in the veg stage. Its a one time one shoot deal and when dialed in there is a difference also during this 2 week period they like a increase in Iron and zinc which is not as demanded in other stage of plant life.

heres a little hydro reading for you if you interested






Boron (B)


Content in Plants

The sufficiency range for B in leaf tissue is from 10 to 50 mg/kg (ppm) of

the dry weight, with the critical values being closer to either the lower or

upper concentration of the sufficiency range, depending on the plant species.

Boron accumulates in the leaf margins at concentrations 5 to 10 times that in

the whole leaf blade. Therefore, the percent of margin to leaf blade can

significantly influence a B assay of a leaf tissue sample taken for analysis.

Function

Boron is important in carbohydrate synthesis and transport, pollen growth

and development, and cellular activities (division, differentiation, maturation,

respiration, growth, etc.).

Deficiency Symptoms

Plants deficient in B exhibit various visual symptoms; the first is slowed and

stunting of new growth, followed by a general stunting of the whole plant,

and when the deficiency is severe, the growing tip of the plant will die. The

plant itself will be brittle (due to cell wall deterioration), as leaf petioles and

stems will easily break from the main stem. Fruit development will be slow

or non-existent, depending on the severity of the deficiency. Fruit quality will

be impaired when B is inadequately supplied. When the deficiency is severe,

the growing tip of both tops and roots will die.

Excess Symptoms

Because B accumulates in the leaf margins, an early symptom of excess B is

discoloration and eventual death of the leaf margins. Normally, discoloration

along the whole length of the leaf distinguishes B excess from Ca deficiency

(see page 46), where just the leaf tip and margin at the tip turn brown and

die. Boron toxicity can easily result from excess B in the nutrient solution or

from B found in natural waters. The B level in the plant should be closely

monitored by plant analysis and by care in making the nutrient solution and

evaluating the quality of water used.

The Essential Elements 53

Concentration in a Nutrient Solution

Hydroponic formulas usually call for a B concentration of about 0.3 mg/L

(ppm) in the nutrient solution; the borate (BO3

3-) anion and molecular boric

acid (H3BO3) are the forms found in solution and utilized by plants.

Nutrient Solution Reagents

Boric acid (H3BO3), Solubor (Na2B4O7•4H2O + Na2B10O16•10H2O) and borax

(Na2B4O7•10H2O) are the primary reagent sources.

I post that about the boron because you mention Boron at 1.5 and 2ppm as a starting point

0.3ppm to 0.5 is a proper range that youll find +/- in almost every liquid fertilizer youll find

anything as high as 1.5 or more is likely going to do more harm then good in the long run

Boron (B)


Concentration in Nutrient Solutions : 0.3 mg/L (ppm)

Typical Deficiency Symptoms : Slowed and stunted new growth, with possible


death of the growing point and root tips; lack of fruit set and

development; plants are brittle and petioles will easily break off the stem

Symptoms of Excess : Accumulates in the leaf margins, resulting in death of


the margins

Critical Plant Level : 25 mg/kg (ppm)

Atomic Number: 5 Atomic Weight: 10.81

Discoverer of Essentiality and Year: Sommer and Lipman, 1926

Designated Element: Micronutrient

Functions: Associated with carbohydrate chemistry, pollen germination, and


cellular activities (division, differentiation, maturation, respiration, and

growth); important in the synthesis of one of the bases for RNA formation

Mobility: Immobile

Forms Utilized by Plants: Borate (BO3

3–) anion as well as the molecule

H3BO3

Common Reagents for Making Nutrient Solutions :

Reagent Formula % B

Boric acid H3BO3 16

Solubor Na2B4O7•4H2O +

Na2B10O16•10H2O

20

Borax Na2B4O7•10H2O 11

Sufficiency Ranges in Plant Tissues :

Plant Plant Part

mg/kg (ppm) B

(Dry Weight)

Head lettuce Whole head 22–65

Lettuce Wrapper leaf 25–60

Bell pepper Fully developed leaf 25–75

Tomato Leaf opposite below flower

cluster

First cluster 25–75

Second cluster 25–75

Third cluster 25–75

Fourth cluster 25–75

Fifth cluster 25–75

Sixth cluster 25–75

Cucumber Fully developed leaf 30–100

Toxic Plant Level : >100 mg/kg (ppm)

again
if I was going to fool with adding LARGE increases in micros id have to go with foliar feeding to start

its something you can do to one plant and if it gets fucked you just throw it out

I wouldn't want to do it on a whole garden since the likely hood of issues is increasing substantially

I did a lot of these testings raising and lowing things but in much smaller margins and found imbalances so im sure large amounts like that are going to be problems in hydro or soil

id be on board with a foliar feed of peters s.t.e.m. on occasion to provide broad coverage and maybe get the brix up but that's as far as I will be going with it

I do have chelated (edta) powders for most of the micros
Zc
Mn
Cu


I would consider doing some test on high copper amounts
the copper it seems can be used at significantly higher levels than what the plant requires without detriment
and theres studies that have shown in some case with some plants to have a higher resistence to mold or root disease

many many years ago I did some tests foliar spraying different plant growth regulators (pgr)

it was long time ago so id be hard pressed to rememeber it all but

triacontinol, BAP, Gibberlins, and I few other hormones I cant recall at the moment

man that stuff did some funky shit to the plants at all different stages

I tested at several different dosages for each... some of it was a pain to mix as I remember having to use lye or something and some other solvents to dissolve it

I was just curious

none fo the test plants where smoked and I kulled them all

most where pushed hard to see how much o could frankistein them

im4satori said:

I post that about the boron because you mention Boron at 1.5 and 2ppm as a starting point

0.3ppm to 0.5 is a proper range that you'll find +/- in almost every liquid fertilizer youll find

anything as high as 1.5 or more is likely going to do more harm then good in the long run

Click to expand...

actually I think said 1.0 to 1.3 because I know what I'm growing and what it can handle .there are actually 3 different guidelines for Boron from the US EPA
sensitive crops citrus and trees 0.3 to 1.25 semi tolerant crops cereals and grains 0.67 - 2.5 tolerant crops includes most vegetables 1.0 - 4.0
in hydro or soil less Fe has to be chelated

most people treat micro nutrients as a supplement so to say add some here and there and your all good , they actually have a much bigger role then that in fact there as important as all other nutes just small quantities. for someone that has very good understanding of how to mix there own nutes and micro nutes ,bottled store bought stuff has no place in the conversation as there a one size fits all program ( junk) unless someone is only mixing because there cheap. but for the serious person mixing nutes there is no comparison to bottled.

I'm pretty well caught up on my hydro reading lol I could post a bunch of technical stuff but in the end its all talk practical is what matters, my point was simple, different plants like different levels of micro nutes at different times. if anyone is interested in this info and wants to experiment on one or two of there plants to find out what it can take and when , you might just be amazingly surprised.

southernguy99 said:

basically the 2 heaviest weeks of flower where the plants will need up to 3x + ( 4.5 -5.5 ) (even more depending on the plants ) the amount of Boron as in the veg stage. .

Click to expand...

ah bro

I apologize if I came off like I was trying to school you or something
perhaps I misunderstood what you meant in the sentence above

your obviously well versed and my hat is off to anyone who can mix there own salts or takes the time to learn that much.. it seems we are few and far between and im happy to have conversation about it

I posted the tech stuff just to back up my point of view so youd know im not talking out my ass, it wasn't with the intention to undermine your skills or your knowledge

ive not done the "extreme" testing with micro nutes as you've suggested so I cant say from actual experience

I could see doing some testing at 1.0 to 1.3 (which in my mind is 3x the base amount)

but you lost me when you got up to 4.5 to 5.5

just because a plant may or may not tolerate the high levels doesn't mean itll prefer it

another thing I will just throw out there

most of the literature for hydro is based on growing food crops

food crops require much much higher nutrient needs than weed

when you look at the lucas, stiener or Hoagland/arnon studies and nutrient formulation they suggest much higher ppm than what weed requires

for example lucas
100 N
100 P
200 K

is likely almost double the EC of what the minimum needs of mj grown in hydro

peronsally Im a fan of something around during bloom
bloom
90 ppm N
65ppm P
135ppm K


which is close to the hoagland ratios with a bit more P than whats needed

and then I like a 3:2:1 ratio on the K:Ca:Mg cations

for veg I run
veg
115 N +/-
35 P
135 K

ive ran zinc as high as 2ppm without issue but I settled on 1ppm .....
anything under 1ppm gave me issues likely due to the use of chelated Fe dtpa and the competition between them

I tend to run my iron at something above 2ppm up to 2.5ppm which is slightly higher than most mixes provide and that increase in iron (in a chelated form)is likely why I need the full 1ppm of zinc despite the fact that most formulas only carry 0.5ppm

im4satori said:

ah bro

I apologize if I came off like I was trying to school you or something
perhaps I misunderstood what you meant in the sentence above

your obviously well versed and my hat is off to anyone who can mix there own salts or takes the time to learn that much.. it seems we are few and far between and im happy to have conversation about it

I posted the tech stuff just to back up my point of view so youd know im not talking out my ass, it wasn't with the intention to undermine your skills or your knowledge

ive not done the "extreme" testing with micro nutes as you've suggested so I cant say from actual experience

I could see doing some testing at 1.0 to 1.3 (which in my mind is 3x the base amount)

but you lost me when you got up to 4.5 to 5.5

just because a plant may or may not tolerate the high levels doesn't mean itll prefer it

Click to expand...

No need to apologize man I didn't take it that way at all , I still learn shit every day lol

In the past , I actual run bottled nutes and had micro nute diffidence easy to see and by simply adding double the amount of micro made a world of difference. so after many years it was determined that 1.0 to 1.3 really seemed to be that sweet spot or most strains except for the odd water down strain one may come across. but like I say its all about knowing the plant and what it likes. I've read in the past in literature for vegetables that in studies it was shown that they liked the increase in the heavy flower weeks as well.

the question about tolerate or prefer is answered in testing side by side growth , the more plants the better to see a better average from one side to the other.it was clear from the start that a bump in micro in those weeks made a difference , long story short it was determined that in that 1-2 weeks a bump of boron to 4.5 was the optimal range that gave max gains without showing any tolerating issues ,in fact test was run as high as 10 most cases 7+ started to show issues on leaf, growth etc. some made it to 10 before showing issues .this is specifically in those 2 weeks now again its about testing an knowing your plant because some were 3.5 - 4 and some were 4.5+ the reason for this is Boron influences how vegetables/flowers process carbohydrates and move the sugars that control fruit taste, quality and color.

I can see how it might be affected by certain times when sugars are more useful

that makes some sense to some degree

do you have any reading material about the increased needs during high carb uptake times? or is it based on your own studies/observations/testings?

in hydro the only time ive experienced micro nute def was when I fucked up on my measuring or math and added the wrong amount of something in a concentrate that threw the cation out of balance causing lock out
or
when I increased chelated iron I ended up with a mild zinc def and raised the zinc from 0.5ppm to 1ppm to offset the chelated iron (which is documented as a common issue with Fe chelate)
or
in if the ph is out

otherwise ive not had any isues with micro nute def ...

are you only increasing Bo during specific weeks and for short intervals? or are you running them high all the time?

Boron has a much wider effect then just what i said above it builds cell wall formation and stability , it plays a big part in pollination and seed set , it also plays a big roll in the number of flowers per plant and yield
through veg - pre flower usually run 1.0 to 1.3 , considering plants efficiency of uptake and the fact they should store between 25ppm to 100ppm in dried leaf samples .
in flower at the start of the heaviest 2 week cycle they get an increase of Boron, Fe, Zinc Boron being the greatest increase the other 2 just moderate
after this 2 weeks back to veg levels and them everything is flushed out.

at the time this was being figured out it would have been done with their own studies/observations/ lab testings, many years ago , so this has been put into practice with unquestionable results for a long time , this isn't just something new for us . i'm sure if ones searches the net they can find something on this.

ok I just did a search here is 2 I found
here is one from 2014
http://info.atpnutrition.ca/blog/dont-miss-boron-in-your-foliar-spray-program-during-flowering

this one is long didn't read it all but it talk about foliar feeding with lab testing
http://www.ijsrit.com/uploaded_all_files/3265899121_a13.pdf

southernguy99 said:

ok I just did a search here is 2 I found
here is one from 2014
http://info.atpnutrition.ca/blog/dont-miss-boron-in-your-foliar-spray-program-during-flowering

this one is long didn't read it all but it talk about foliar feeding with lab testing
http://www.ijsrit.com/uploaded_all_files/3265899121_a13.pdf

Click to expand...

I will check those out

thnk you

southernguy99 said:

ok I just did a search here is 2 I found
here is one from 2014
http://info.atpnutrition.ca/blog/dont-miss-boron-in-your-foliar-spray-program-during-flowering

this one is long didn't read it all but it talk about foliar feeding with lab testing
http://www.ijsrit.com/uploaded_all_files/3265899121_a13.pdf

Click to expand...

very very interesting

certainly makes me consider a foliar feed for sure maybe at key timing

to bad theres not examples of tissue samples in Mj showing this stuff

seems like wed see that type info by now on mj specific

im4satori said:

very very interesting

certainly makes me consider a foliar feed for sure maybe at key timing

to bad theres not examples of tissue samples in Mj showing this stuff

seems like wed see that type info by now on mj specific

Click to expand...

I like the one from Sri Lanka.
Are the plants used in the Sri Lanka study deficient in boron? I did not see were they clearly specify whether the plants are already deficient in boron.