help me sort out potassium options?

@southernguy99

im4satori said:

ive not read up on the info @Dr. Who is referring to
if theres a link id love to read it

but I can add my 2 cents based on my experience and memory of what ive read/learned in my hydro years and from mixing my own raw salts and concentrates

in soil I assume the buffering capacity would have a different effect than in hydro that has little to zero buffering capabilities in many cases

im curious about your suggestion that micro nutrient needs change by stage, do you have any literature or plant tissue samples to show these changes? that would be interesting

I might also point out there are cation (cat-ion) and anion (an-ion) relationships in micro nutrients just as there are in macro nutrients
so increasing a micro nutrient to an extreme level such as 5ppm Mn is likely to have an extreme effect on and possible reduce or completely lockout zinc and or iron in a hydro style grow

in soil having the buffering im not sure I could make the same statement having much less experience in soil than I do in hydro

most hydro fertilizers will provide something around 0.5 ppm +/- Mn in a solution with not more than 1.0ppm zinc and maybe 1.5 to 2.5 ppm iron

so 5.0 ppm Mn is a shit ton of Mn

Click to expand...

You hit that on the head!

Hydro has preset micro amounts available. The changing needs are covered by the amounts loaded in the nutrient. One must remember that few nutrients are actually formulated for cannabis.
Using one that is, would cover those "shifting needs."

In mixing the CBD/THC booster mix. That formula is for soil. It is used as a supplement. Building soil for the desired effect needs caution. For THC you want a balance of Fe and Mn. More Fe = higher CBD production. You need to test your soil and shoot for Fe and Mn levels of as near to 100 ppm and as equal as you can. There are some here who do this.

If I were to attempt any hydro manipulation. I would first raise my Mn level to the given Fe level of the nutrient. Test the result vs the none adjusted nutrient. Change? Soil being a buffer, I'm not really sure how far you would want to go on adjusting up the Mn and Fe..... Due to the low amounts in the nutrients...I might be inclined to only dbl the amount and in .5 ppm increments, and test again. You would also be carefully watching the plants progress while growing. You start getting problems,,,you might know where it's coming from. Testing isn't cheap, so there's that too.

Fe and Mn have a relationship. Too much of one, is bad for the other. Going over equality, may be not so good.

If you do experiment with this. Please, keep us (at least me) informed on how it goes.....You have my interest up. Not enough to go back and run hydro to find out but, interested to be sure.

Dr. Who said:

@southernguy99



You hit that on the head!

Hydro has preset micro amounts available. The changing needs are covered by the amounts loaded in the nutrient. One must remember that few nutrients are actually formulated for cannabis.
Using one that is, would cover those "shifting needs."

In mixing the CBD/THC booster mix. That formula is for soil. It is used as a supplement. Building soil for the desired effect needs caution. For THC you want a balance of Fe and Mn. More Fe = higher CBD production. You need to test your soil and shoot for Fe and Mn levels of as near to 100 ppm and as equal as you can. There are some here who do this.

If I were to attempt any hydro manipulation. I would first raise my Mn level to the given Fe level of the nutrient. Test the result vs the none adjusted nutrient. Change? Soil being a buffer, I'm not really sure how far you would want to go on adjusting up the Mn and Fe..... Due to the low amounts in the nutrients...I might be inclined to only dbl the amount and in .5 ppm increments, and test again. You would also be carefully watching the plants progress while growing. You start getting problems,,,you might know where it's coming from. Testing isn't cheap, so there's that too.

Fe and Mn have a relationship. Too much of one, is bad for the other. Going over equality, may be not so good.

If you do experiment with this. Please, keep us (at least me) informed on how it goes.....You have my interest up. Not enough to go back and run hydro to find out but, interested to be sure.

Click to expand...

I wonder if some type of testing on this could be more easily done with frequent foliar application with a chelate there by avoiding cation issues the the root zone

im4satori said:

I wonder if some type of testing on this could be more easily done with frequent foliar application with a chelate there by avoiding cation issues the the root zone

Click to expand...

Hmm, now how would you measure the ratio's at that low a mix rate....Let alone measure the nutrient chem's to mix at that low a ratio...Wait, wait, maybe break down by dilution the "improved" hydro mix.....Frequency of application would be another point...... Interesting thought sir, interesting thought....

I always do some extra clones. Have a bit of a #'s window. Might just have to play with this idea. I think a question of order maybe that. What would happen in later bloom as you cease use of any foliar for mold threat? The continuous availability and uptake by the roots. Could very well be a factor in success - The use by the plant in bloom, when foliar stops. Could be a factor.

Still, kinda worth a shot on a clone of known average base cannabinol levels at harvest.

This sounds like a topic for my next local growers kaffekletch meeting....

You brought up an interesting idea.

im4satori said:

im curious about your suggestion that micro nutrient needs change by stage, do you have any literature or plant tissue samples to show these changes? that would be interesting

Click to expand...

There is no literature that I know of , at one time there would have been plenty lab samples , tissue samples etc. but not anymore. at the time when this formula/ recipe , delivery system was designed or made whatever you want to call it , it was keep within., I'm sure there are other using it or a variation of it , but as far as I know there is no literature on line about it or even in the forums.

Dr. Who said:

Hmm, now how would you measure the ratio's at that low a mix rate....Let alone measure the nutrient chem's to mix at that low a ratio...Wait, wait, maybe break down by dilution the "improved" hydro mix.....Frequency of application would be another point...... Interesting thought sir, interesting thought....

I always do some extra clones. Have a bit of a #'s window. Might just have to play with this idea. I think a question of order maybe that. What would happen in later bloom as you cease use of any foliar for mold threat? The continuous availability and uptake by the roots. Could very well be a factor in success - The use by the plant in bloom, when foliar stops. Could be a factor.

Still, kinda worth a shot on a clone of known average base cannabinol levels at harvest.

This sounds like a topic for my next local growers kaffekletch meeting....

You brought up an interesting idea.

Click to expand...

Here are some thoughts, and yes some people will disagree but thats always good conversation lol , in a properly designed hydro system with all available nutes readily available for the plant , meaning the plant has everything it needs and in the proper percentages it needs it, so its never looking or starving for anything by logic foliar feeding /spraying becomes unnecessary, in fact one could argue it does more bad then good. if the plant is getting everything it need from the roots without working for it the plant itself should be left to do what it needs to, uptake light, humidity etc.etc.

foliar spraying can be done but without out any nutrients or anything like that , and only with one or maybe to different products and only to a certain stage of growth , and only to the underside of the leaf. I never spray for any mold or anything like that.

The issue can be all the variables unless everyone uses 100% ro water to start with there can be a million and one variables in that alone, all the strains, genetics, cross breads , hybrids etc may want something a little different to achieve the outcome your looking for.

so how this translate to soil well I don't know, and maybe foliar feeding is necessary .

Dr. Who said:

Hmm, now how would you measure the ratio's at that low a mix rate....Let alone measure the nutrient chem's to mix at that low a ratio...Wait, wait, maybe break down by dilution the "improved" hydro mix.....Frequency of application would be another point...... Interesting thought sir, interesting thought....

I always do some extra clones. Have a bit of a #'s window. Might just have to play with this idea. I think a question of order maybe that. What would happen in later bloom as you cease use of any foliar for mold threat? The continuous availability and uptake by the roots. Could very well be a factor in success - The use by the plant in bloom, when foliar stops. Could be a factor.

Still, kinda worth a shot on a clone of known average base cannabinol levels at harvest.

This sounds like a topic for my next local growers kaffekletch meeting....

You brought up an interesting idea.

Click to expand...

@Dr. Who

did you catch my post with the link for sourcing Mo?

@Dr. Who

if I could keep the humidity belwo 40% day and night id give them a mist at lights on 1x per week

its not like you need complete coverage like when spraying for pest... at 5ppm Mn even a mist light as morning dew would ramp it up a ton

you might even be able to use more than 5ppm
then maybe do tissue samples to check the Mn in the plant if your able

https://customhydronutrients.com/chelates-coppermanganesezinc-c-1_50_98.html?zenid=ec62e0211439998c7914bd7e3408f07a

https://customhydronutrients.com/mangenese-sulfate-c-1_50_101_53.html?zenid=ec62e0211439998c7914bd7e3408f07a

and here is the Mo in case you missed it

https://customhydronutrients.com/molybdenum-fertilizers-c-1_50_56.html?zenid=ec62e0211439998c7914bd7e3408f07a

southernguy99 said:

Here are some thoughts, and yes some people will disagree but thats always good conversation lol , in a properly designed hydro system with all available nutes readily available for the plant , meaning the plant has everything it needs and in the proper percentages it needs it, so its never looking or starving for anything by logic foliar feeding /spraying becomes unnecessary, in fact one could argue it does more bad then good. if the plant is getting everything it need from the roots without working for it the plant itself should be left to do what it needs to, uptake light, humidity etc.etc.

foliar spraying can be done but without out any nutrients or anything like that , and only with one or maybe to different products and only to a certain stage of growth , and only to the underside of the leaf. I never spray for any mold or anything like that.

The issue can be all the variables unless everyone uses 100% ro water to start with there can be a million and one variables in that alone, all the strains, genetics, cross breads , hybrids etc may want something a little different to achieve the outcome your looking for.

so how this translate to soil well I don't know, and maybe foliar feeding is necessary .

Click to expand...

I got the soil thing down, as far as the supplementing by the mix. I got a SS ready with appropriate PPM's for that too. Just about to make a run with the water only soil.

Sure you have the nutrients set and the plant happy. You could still foliar the mix to do the increase in CBD or the higher Mn for THC.....Like im4satori said, do it once a month. Tissue samples will tell you where your at. Follow ups (no further spraying) will tell you use rates by the plant. You could adjust application ratios/frequencies from that.


@im4satori

Gotcha on your source. And thanks too. I like some of their price's.

I use Alpha Chemical for the Farms needs. So I've been doing them for my raw chem sourcing.. I can get "organic" base chem's from several places.

Dr.Who and Im4satori Question for you guy's, you are obviously very experienced in hydro guys how come you went to soil and what is keeping you there. I know the debate about flavor , organic etc. do you find it easier / harder more work less work , that kinda stuff, Is there more issues with bugs etc. is it harder to get a good nutrient profile in the soil, deficiencies that kinda thing. is it easier to have disease issues . I have little experience with it so no sure what questions to ask, I do know hydro is very easy with not much work never had issues with bugs and that stuff. I seen guys try organic and had lots of issues lol but maybe those were just growing pains. Thanks for any info

southernguy99 said:

Dr.Who and Im4satori Question for you guy's, you are obviously very experienced in hydro guys how come you went to soil and what is keeping you there. I know the debate about flavor , organic etc. do you find it easier / harder more work less work , that kinda stuff, Is there more issues with bugs etc. is it harder to get a good nutrient profile in the soil, deficiencies that kinda thing. is it easier to have disease issues . I have little experience with it so no sure what questions to ask, I do know hydro is very easy with not much work never had issues with bugs and that stuff. I seen guys try organic and had lots of issues lol but maybe those were just growing pains. Thanks for any info

Click to expand...

man that question is going to bring a lot of opinions from every direction and no one will agree lol

I have not been in soil that long so my opinion is limited

I have a lot to learn about organic soil and that's why I decided to make the switch was to learn something new... id been in hydro for a long long time and got bored

my OPINION over hydro vs organic and work load
if your doing a true organic grow, building your own soils and amending or building biology its more work to do organic because its less automated

on the other hand if your just buying bags of organic soil using them 1x and pitching the soil and your watering in with "organic" liquid store bought fertilizers then that would be less work than hydro but that's not what I would define as a "true organic garden experience"

now that I have switched to organic soil I wont be going back

I have been lucky enough to have had success in organic soil... quality and yields are up, pests are down with less issues with mildew, mold or rot top and bottom

for hydro its kinda like baking a cake... if you can get it right one time and repeat, repeat, repeat
you just gotta get your recipe tweaked, some get lucky and figure it out quick and some it takes time to get past the shit direction on the nutrient labels

theres also a middle ground you could grow in soil using soluble fertilizer (as in not organic) and that might be easier than anything and less work all together... but ive not actually ever done that since I went organic from the start of my soil experience

thanks Im4satori That does answer a lot of question , I not going to say I'm bored with hydro but yeah its very easy and just repeat , the easy part is key though after having some serious injuries i need easy , so I know I'll never do the true organic thing.

with mixing my own nutes for hydro I don't buy shit from a grow shop plus its cheap as hell, so I don't see me buying organics nutes from them either

from some of the guys i see try it the biggest issues I think was bugs they couldn't find any local EWC , organic soils , seaweed/kelp mixes etc that didn't have bugs in it. liquid fertilizers like fish etc are easy and cheap to get. if I knew I could get around the bug issues this would be way I'd go.

funny you bring up the middle grow option because I had this in the back of my head for a while. probably run a sunshine mix and just use my hydro recipe and tweak as necessary. I wonder how hard it would be to flush the nutes out at the end.

growing in soil using fertilizer will require a much smaller container size so that's less dirt and less weight to lift with each pot

I haven't had the experience you describe with bugs coming from the materials but that doesn't mean its not a common issue, just not one ive experienced

I was able to order what wasn't available to me thru my local hydro center to source much of the amendments, but I will admit it wasn't cheap, but Im sure it could be done for less by someone more $ concerned than I was
i had very good success using the fox farm ocean forest soil and also had success using the coats soil mix
the fox farm is a bit more expensive but a lot less labor than building your own from scratch
and can be easily amended or just top dressed with some organic tomato tone fertilizer and maybe some gypsum and occasional Epsom salt

if you need N add hydro fish, if you need K at potassium sulfate or monopoatssium phosphate,
if you need both supplement potassium nitrate in small amounts at low EC and do an organic grow using a wee bit of solubles

or you could just use your solubles

if you can mix your own nutes you should look into getting a dosatron injector my friend

another possibility you could consider is coco

ive not grown in coco but as i understand it theres some buffering to some degree

thanks for the ideas , i looked the dosatron injector in the past but I'n sure how would benefit me, at least for hydro. each one of the individual fertilizers potassium sulfate , monopoatssium phosphate etc 6 in total are each individually mixed directly to the rez , there is no need to bottle etc. this get done about every 10 days, it take about 15 minutes to flush re-fertilize

southernguy99 said:

thanks for the ideas , i looked the dosatron injector in the past but I'n sure how would benefit me, at least for hydro. each one of the individual fertilizers potassium sulfate , monopoatssium phosphate etc 6 in total are each individually mixed directly to the rez , there is no need to bottle etc. this get done about every 10 days, it take about 15 minutes to flush re-fertilize

Click to expand...

I have 2 dosatron injectors

they where like $280 each

they mix at a rate of 1:128 so that's 1 oz to 1 gallon

I mix 2 concentrates

for example;
10 gallon bucket A
calcium nitrate
potassium nitarte
iron dtpa

10 gallon bucket B
mono potassium phospahte
potassium sulfate
magnesium sulfate
and all the micro nutes that I wont list
and sulfuric acid for ph adjustment

so that makes 1280 gallons of fertilizer solution that can be either hydro drip fed and drain to waste or for soil id just attach a garden hose and spray wand and hand water

the bigger the stock container the longer you can go without having to make or measure fertilizer

I don't subscribe to flushing.... if your not over feeding your plants theres no reason to flush

I feed the same fertilizer solution from start of 12/12 to completion

if you look under my posts and go into the journal satori x querkle

youll see picture of the set up

for hydro drip feed drain to waste

you just plug in the timers and itll run itself until the plants are done no need to ph adjust again or change reservoirs... no air stones no air pumps and no reservoir pumps

no root disease and no need for sterilizers or beneficials
roots as white as teeth the day you harvest

I went on vacation for 2 weeks straight and my garden wasn't seen by anybody the entire time... I came back and all was perfect

southernguy99 said:

Dr.Who and Im4satori Question for you guy's, you are obviously very experienced in hydro guys how come you went to soil and what is keeping you there. I know the debate about flavor , organic etc. do you find it easier / harder more work less work , that kinda stuff, Is there more issues with bugs etc. is it harder to get a good nutrient profile in the soil, deficiencies that kinda thing. is it easier to have disease issues . I have little experience with it so no sure what questions to ask, I do know hydro is very easy with not much work never had issues with bugs and that stuff. I seen guys try organic and had lots of issues lol but maybe those were just growing pains. Thanks for any info

Click to expand...

I began in soil, outdoors. I was taught organic hand feeding by a dedicated, long time, weed grower. I moved on from there and as the hydro methods hit, had to jump on that train.

I prefer soil for the less work and more forgiving nature of it......Not to mention the taste factor. I never really left soil, simply picked up other things from wanting to try it.

I liked RDWC best....

im not a fan of certain hydro methods that require water chillers to keep roots healthy or having to keep adding sterilizers.
im also not a fan of using organic material in hydro reservoirs such as aminos or kelp or fulvic and that also rules out BB which I hadn't had good luck with in hydro

I like the dtw because its just less work.
in hydro using a dosatron injector on a drip system dtw and not having to change reservoirs or check ph or add root enhancers made it pretty easy
the hardest part is finding a place to dispose of the rockwool at the end.lol
if I couldn't use the dosatron I would get a huge resrvior ...like 300 gallons and still do dtw

if I wanted to use fertilizers
soil with the dosatron would be hands down the least amount of work for sure

but
if I was constantly changing reservoirs adjusting ph and chasing root disease I might also agree that hydro is more work, but in my set up it was very automated so my feelings are a bit different

id mix my 2 part concentrate in 30 gallon trash cans which makes close to 4000 gallons
and that would last a long long long time

also a big factor in my choice to switch to soil was the quantity of plants

I wanted fewer plant numbers so I had to grow them bigger and my opinion is soil suites huge plants better than hydro
imo hydro is more geared for smaller plants spaced closer together


hell I guess if easy is whats important just get some bagged soil and throw some 10-10-10 on top when its time
that's pretty easy

im4satori said:

I hear what your saying and appreciate it



another thing
when I recycled the soil I didn't add any additional compost because I felt like the soil was not well aerated and pooling so I recycled the soil to allow for more drainage and didn't add more compost
my original mix was coats 1/3 peat,compost,perlite

Click to expand...

DING, DING, DING!!!!
I betcha if you cut your existing soil with promix , at a 1/1 ratio that the plants would take off.

that is the number one problem with organic mixes.
by far, by faaaaaaaar....
I've done it multiple times, organic soils heavy in humus will do that, it's why they are so great for CEC rates, BUT it's why they can hold too much water.
and a too moist soil will absolutely replicate a cation problem.
I urge you SOOOO much, to try and square that away first. I am fairly confident that it's the problem you are having.
in fact do a side by side, in one plant go ahead and try to remedy the K issue.
in the other just cut your soil with pro mix, half to half.
and I bet within probably a week or so it'll be fine.
keep me posted man, i'm not here much so you'll need to tag me or quote me to let me know

greasemonkeymann said:

DING, DING, DING!!!!
I betcha if you cut your existing soil with promix , at a 1/1 ratio that the plants would take off.

that is the number one problem with organic mixes.
by far, by faaaaaaaar....
I've done it multiple times, organic soils heavy in humus will do that, it's why they are so great for CEC rates, BUT it's why they can hold too much water.
and a too moist soil will absolutely replicate a cation problem.
I urge you SOOOO much, to try and square that away first. I am fairly confident that it's the problem you are having.
in fact do a side by side, in one plant go ahead and try to remedy the K issue.
in the other just cut your soil with pro mix, half to half.
and I bet within probably a week or so it'll be fine.
keep me posted man, i'm not here much so you'll need to tag me or quote me to let me know

Click to expand...

well the thing is it might be too late to say for certain since I did both

I add potash and lightened my soil mix considerably

either way the plants are very happy and the problem seems resolved

to provide more details i recycled the ounce used coats 1/3 mix with;
20% biochar and 10% pine bark and 5% peat with zero compost
which lightened the coats mix up considerably
along with 2 oz feather meal 2oz bone meal 3/4 cup green sand and 1/4 cup potash 1 cup gypsum 1/2 cup azomite per cub ft

im 4 weeks into bloom and they look stellar
been watering only with Epsom salt every other ..that's it

on another note
I went searching walmart and my local grocery stores and cant find aloe juice anywhere
I found some juices that contain aloe but none that are just aloe
and the stuff i did find was very expensive

im4satori said:

well the thing is it might be too late to say for certain since I did both

I add potash and lightened my soil mix considerably

either way the plants are very happy and the problem seems resolved

to provide more details i recycled the ounce used coats 1/3 mix with;
20% biochar and 10% pine bark and 5% peat with zero compost
which lightened the coats mix up considerably
along with 2 oz feather meal 2oz bone meal 3/4 cup green sand and 1/4 cup potash 1 cup gypsum 1/2 cup azomite per cub ft

im 4 weeks into bloom and they look stellar
been watering only with Epsom salt every other ..that's it

on another note
I went searching walmart and my local grocery stores and cant find aloe juice anywhere
I found some juices that contain aloe but none that are just aloe
and the stuff i did find was very expensive

Click to expand...

i'd be willing to bet that it was an issue with aeration,
you want fresh aloe, go get a plant man, they're cheap and hardy as hell.
and I wouldn't use Epsom at that frequency, personally. I've learned to pretty much not mess with the cations man.
it may be alright for a while, maybe even indefinitely, but it's not easy to correct a cation imbalance.
it is good that you are pairing that with the gypsum, as the extra cal is needed to balance that mag, but i'd be worried about them creating an imbalance, especially with those slow source of cal and K (bone meal and greensand).
remember it's best to NOT re-amend until your soil mix is really dialed in, i'm discovering that past the initial soil construction at reamending times it's just compost and aeration that is needed.

keep in mind that annual plants ONLY require the equivalent of the previous year's plant detritus in order to grow again.
that breaks down to probably around a cup's worth of finished compost per gallon of soil, maybe even less.

remember, plants grow themselves, they've evolved to perfectly grow without any interaction from mankind, so the key is to try and replicate that.
each yr cannabis dies back, and during the winter time the plant has the time needed to compost and breakdown back into useable nutrients for the next years plant. It's a cycle, and a very fine tuned perfect cycle.
right?

so really ALL we need to do is replenish what WE take, what WE smoke...
the trim, the sunleaves, everything, that goes BACK to the plant, via compost.
the amount of buds taken should be given back in some fashion, in my experience the best is a basic leaf compost, mixed with grass clippings.