Help choosing an LED replacement for 1000HPS?

Darth Vapour · Jun 8, 2015

Here some numbers lol although these guys are idiots,,, HPS still out yielded the LED .... If we were to put percentages comparing hid grows comparisons ??? what do you think it would be ??? 80 percent hid 20 percent LED or 90 hid 10 LED or 50 / 50 lol real world numbers not Fairy tale numbers

has anyone did a par / spectrum tests after say 10,000 hrs is there any degradation ??? hey DE CLAIMS 98 PERCENT IS STILL THERE AFTER 1 YEAR LETS LOOK AT LED

PLEASE NOTE AFTER 11,000 HRS YOUR IN THE 90 LOL AND WHAT ABOUT LETS RAISE ROOM TEMPS BRING IN THE HEATERS IN THAT GROW ROOM RUN HER 80 DEGREES WOULD THIS MEAN DROPS WOULD INCREASE ??? 11,000 HRS IN THE 70'S ??/ SHIT YOU STILL GOT 40,000 HRS TO GO LOL
SHIT 5000 HRS ITS ALREADY DEGRADING

THCbreeder · Jun 8, 2015

KarmaPaymentPlan said:
but he's gonna buy Lush then he'll show us all how crappy they are lol

He is what we call a follower . He"ll succumb to these lights in time when the industry converts over to it. The leaders are the ones pioneering the future while we're making his Kool aid like we would our kids , he"ll grow up . Just like technology has in the past 60 years . Ha closed minds never change

SupraSPL · Jun 8, 2015

djweed420 said:
Forgive my noob inexperience but what do you mean by PPFD?

I was looking at the Optic 500W CXB3590 as a possible replacement for my HPS if I don't go the DIY route. A good choice?

All good, PPFD is photon count/second, averaged over 1 meter² canopy. It brings us a step closer to accurately estimating how many photons we can get into the canopy. I run at about 750 PPFD and have been very happy with the nug size, not too big not too small. Works well an unruly canopy and mid yielding varieties.

PPFD is only part of the story, spectral distribution, canopy temp and how evenly the light is spread will also affect the photosynthetic efficiency. This is a PPFD/temperature chart that is Cannabis specific

I have not finished running the numbers comparing all of the Optic offerings yet and I really need to get on that before I can say what I think is the best deal. I suggested the Vero29 200 model because it would allow you to get an even spread in a 4X4, but the 360 model is cheaper/PAR W and offers the same efficiency. If you step up to the 500 model the drive current increases to 2.9A, resulting in a lower COB efficiency and higher temp droop (~38% vs 42%) Not a big deal but worth mentioning. I understand the convenience factor of having a single lamp rather than multiple lamps to hang, but my DIY setup has been rightly called the mothership armada :leaf:

Darth Vapour · Jun 8, 2015

KarmaPaymentPlan said:
but he's gonna buy Lush then he'll show us all how crappy they are lol

Actually NO i asked what people though of Lush as i seen some decent buds from there grows but again sure its a marketing scam . like most LED claims right
but what i am purchasing is nanolux 1215 watt DE 's need a few more to complete my green house 32 site UC grow fireing up this fall

you know them 18,000 watt plus grows

money makers

AquariusPanta · Jun 8, 2015

SupraSPL said:
All good, PPFD is photon count/second, averaged over 1 meter² canopy. It brings us a step closer to accurately estimating how many photons we can get into the canopy. I run at about 750 PPFD and have been very happy with the nug size, not too big not too small. Works well an unruly canopy and mid yielding varieties.
View attachment 3436438

PPFD is only part of the story, spectral distribution, canopy temp and how evenly the light is spread will also affect the photosynthetic efficiency. This is a PPFD/temperature chart that is Cannabis specific
View attachment 3436440

I have not finished running the numbers comparing all of the Optic offerings yet and I really need to get on that before I can say what I think is the best deal. I suggested the Vero29 200 model because it would allow you to get an even spread in a 4X4, but the 360 model is cheaper/PAR W and offers the same efficiency. If you step up to the 500 model the drive current increases to 2.9A, resulting in a lower COB efficiency and higher temp droop (~38% vs 42%) Not a big deal but worth mentioning. I understand the convenience factor of having a single lamp rather than multiple lamps to hang, but my DIY setup has been rightly called the mothership armada

I've seen a lot of sprectral distribution charts for Bridgelux and Cree COBS, but not very many for other lighting solutions. I know you've been around this technology for quite some time now, Supra; where do you think Vero and Cree COBS place amongst the other lighting options when it comes to sprectral distribution?

As far as PPFD goes, how many photons should we, as growers, be aiming towards throughout seedling/vegetation and flowering stages? In other words, what do you believe to be the ideal?

Darth Vapour · Jun 8, 2015

But i forgot Is green gene starting up a LED company ??? Anyone ???
i send him a message asking how much or a unit that will blow a DE out of the water

patently waiting for his reply

SupraSPL · Jun 8, 2015

I understand why many people are skeptical of commercial LEDs, you should be! 99.5% of them are a steaming pile of BS in my opinion. There are only a handful of brands that I trust and would ever recommend to fellow growers. LEDs done right though, will blow 1000W HPS DE away in terms of gpw. They put more photons down/W, it is what it is. Yes they cost more/PAR W so if you live somewhere with lots of cold fresh air and very low AC requirements maybe DE HPS is a better bet. But if LEDs can increase the yield in your space LEDs will pay for themselves literally in days.

I would love to see a yield competition with 2 equal sized basements, HPS vs COB, both using flip flops to control heat. Start with the same budget and see which one can turn more profit in 1 year of perpetual. The LED build will invest more in the lamps and the HPS will invest more in circulation, ventilation, AC equipment and electrical costs. Assuming both systems are observing the same canopy temp and saying to hell with quality, LED will be able to pack much more light in the space and if the LED even slightly outyields the HPS overall, the profit of that system will go through the roof.

SupraSPL · Jun 8, 2015

Darth Vapour said:
But i forgot Is green gene starting up a LED company ??? Anyone ???
i send him a message asking how much or a unit that will blow a DE out of the water patently waiting for his reply

Yes he is working on Cree COB based lamps. The business is recently formed, Pacific Light Concepts. The lamps are legit, have a great spread, highly efficient reflectors, high COB efficiency and high driver efficiency. Quality across the board. I think they will be ~300W of dissipation each, so all else being equal (including canopy temps) I expect a pair of them will equal or outyield a 1000 HPS DE.

Greengenes707 · Jun 8, 2015

Darth Vapour said:
What i find ironic is, everyone will use that one person concept,, or grow to prove there point that did a great job and believe ,,
Now we can believe in magic , mythical events , fairy tales, and Folklore..
You have every right to believe the world is FLAT , there is a god , and Jesus actually existed.. And Start to follow there beliefs as if it was some sort of religion ,, written by people 100's of years after the so called events ... HERE SAY
Lets look at a great example ,, HEATH ROBINSON for some He is a legend ,,,, for other's only herd of..
and for some lucky ones actually knew , spoke , and shared ideas ( like my self ) yet to this day know one has EVER came close to what he did .... Must i remind you all its like 20 years now ..
But today with the legalization in many states we got them coming in from all walks of life.. Now.. And funny thing is really there the n Nit wits , ass wipes , and retards that have made this site what it is today even Sunni mentoned she has given up ..
with the flaming , trolling or what ever RIU 10 years ago and RIU today is really a fucking JOKE ... in comparison .... From reading above posts anyone can clearly see

With people always pointing out to this persons grow or that persons grow etc.. Has anyone here bought into those infomercials ?????
Fuck it neat, how these things does this or that ..
Yet when you purchased it on line,, and try to use it its nothing close to what it did in that commercial...
When a person is in line a MacDonald's, looking at the pictures of Big mac's , quarter pounders's, wraps ,, EC the pictures and final product are far from what it looks like in picture ..
See marketing does wonders ,, it really does...
Anyone growing a LED unit caan be sales man shit i start a 300 LEP plasma grow journal post pictures of them under few plants ,, but behind closed doors have 2000 watts of HPS growing them plants ,,but the day i update pictures of room ,, better make sure i drop them lights out of the picture ...
See where i am getting at ???
Its the internet take everything with a fucking grain of salt ,, i can easily push my agenda forward with plasma journal that would make it look out of this world ..
Now with that all said anyone can pull journals on the tube here and any other forum 1000's kick ass 2.5 -3 pound harvest are normal every day occurrence they will grow you any size plant and fast ...

Now this member mentioned Greengene ?? curious is he not starting up some cob LED company ??? if so could this not be a great marketing scheme ....
i mean they say marketing is 90 percent of sales ... could he not be a previous sales rep for APACHE where he might of got a demo unit or free hell i remember SARA from mars led lighting was going to send me 1600 watt LED unit for documented grow when they first came out ,, And for a free,,, anyone is not going to slam there product but boast it

I love how you are question everything I do and me honesty/integrity...yet you PM me to help you build a light...why would you want my opinion/expertise if I am full of shit. Oh ya...because I am the only one who you don't have shit to talk other than the price. Is it your money...is it your garden...have I ever told you to buy an LED??? NO FUCKING SIR!!!
I just do my thing in my garden and post it. Openly and honestly. Take it or leave...but fuck off regardless.
You can ask any club that deals with me in my area about my product and weights. They used to never believe it came from LED either...at least not at first. Now my drops are awaited for their quality and potency. Top shelf reserve every time. From a boutique local grower...Me and my garden you see in my thread...from nowhere else. I used to run a 18K garden...so much fun...but am on a different path now(family).
My lights in my room(1K replacers) are 50-65lbs...there is no chance in hell i would take them down during a run. It's actually impossible with my scogg after the stretch. I wanted to change lenses a few runs ago and had to do it while it hung and reach over the canopy...damn near impossible.
I bought 15K worth of apache at120's and they let me down in comparison to hps. Straight up no lies, and it is all posted in here under tags420. That was in 2011 and since have worked hand in hand with AT as their tested to develop the AT600. The AT600 is my idea/design. I had 4 of my at120's set into a piece of plywood then brought it to AT in person. That is how the at600 was born. I don't hide any of my current or past involvement. I dropped 15K on them originally...my dues are paid son...you can suck it over my free prototype light that I designed...I barely call that even. I should have a perpetuity royalty...but I don't because that is not my game. I just wanted to help, and also have a light in my garden that would do what it is supposed to. And that is what I did and have.

You think I didn't tell AT all about COBS and how well they have been doing for me...hahah. Funny guy you are.
Of course I did, and I tried to push them towards them. But AT has their direction and ways of doing things. I get asked a 100 times a week to make lights, sell my protos, or walk people through a build. So much so that I gave in and did started my own light company. Does that change my results or my apaches results over the last 5 years...fuck no. Only makes honesty that much more important. When someone doesn't pull what I do...they would be pissed. And I wouldn't/don't want that. I am making an honest and quality product. It's 300w to replace 315cmh and 400hps with improved yields and quality. But it would not improve the yield of a 600hps...might be close in some grows/situations...but 80% it will not be close. And I don't/won't market it as a 600 replacement. I'm about honesty and integrity. I am a business major with a minor in general bio. Hence my position in the led world...it's just my nature. I'm industrious, driven, and intelligent. I have a full time job I go to every day in suit and tie. Then I come home and go to my other job...my garden. Then now to my other job...PLC. I don't have time to bull shit and play games. Results and quality products is all I have time and effort for.

And trust me bro...I hate getting tagged into a thread/conversion only to see that 5 other people have already used my grows and results to make their point. Others need to do what I did 3 times already. PS...in all 3 the LED had higher potency, and white based was higher than red/blue. Back in 2011 I didn't get/have terp test, so my apologies for only one side by side for the terps. But I have done it enough myself to not have to do it again, and to be able to use my results as tested and backed data. All though I probably will one day soon with a COB panel.

Darth Vapour · Jun 8, 2015

a pair of them ?? curious whats the cost for one of them ??? LED has made advances but people are blind to the fact that HPS is not making advances as well although not at a rapid rate but who knows what might come out

also i am curious Being last couple of years companies realizing that CRI importance or more or less full spectrum what are the CRI from the cob CXA3070 80 ??? in all seriousness i am not worried about how bright my room looks my lumens i am only worried about par and depth of par into my plants which makes buds there is no denying the best bang for the buck is Gavita / nanolux or anyother DE units pretty much on the market except for Epap they light up a area unreal but lack in penetration power there fore there as they were designed not to be a stand alone fixture

SupraSPL · Jun 8, 2015

AquariusPanta said:
I've seen a lot of sprectral distribution charts for Bridgelux and Cree COBS, but not very many for other lighting solutions. I know you've been around this technology for quite some time now, Supra; where do you think Vero and Cree COBS place amongst the other lighting options when it comes to sprectral distribution?

In order from most even distribution to worst:
-100 CRi sun
-96 CRi CMH
-90-97 CRi LED (for the record, not recommended)
-70-80 CRi white LED, Cree Bridgleux etc
-38 cri DE HPS - Philips Greenpower
-25 cri enhanced HPS - Hortilux super HPS
-20 cri standard HPS
-?CRi blurple LED without whites

AquariusPanta said:
As far as PPFD goes, how many photons should we, as growers, be aiming towards throughout seedling/vegetation and flowering stages? In other words, what do you believe to be the ideal?

I have been able to keep several square feet of short plants alive with a 1-2 watt LED, ~12-25 PPFD! As long as they are growing very slightly they can remain healthy, a good way to keep varieties on the back burner that you want to rotate back in later. For basic vegging I run LED at ~150-200 PPFD and for rapid vegging I go up to 350. For flowering with LED I aim for 750.

It will vary based on your situation. For autoflowers it might make sense to pound them with light in veg as well as in flower. If you are extremely limited on flowering space you might want to sacrifice efficiency to some extent to increase intensity and squeeze every bit of yield out of your space.

Darth Vapour · Jun 8, 2015

Green i am not trying to start anything with you you decided to go your direction i never said COB does not grow it sure looks like they can ?? you said it not me curious you get any apache's or free ??? i bet yeah did right .. same thing yes i pm'd you i am curious.. on cost what is it going to cost me for the COB DE killer ????? have you played with temps with cob's ??? i mean for instance i run my rooms 86- 88 degrees celsius
best temps i found for C02 uptake and growth rates ??? with these temps looking at graphs i posted above ??? will it infact alter the spectrum and life expectency of the cob in general ..
i have same Gavita's for over 3 years not skipping a beat replace bulbs early ??? what about green house grows with humidity i run up to 80 - 90 percent and have read LEDS appear to rot from inside out can not find the pictures of a LED light opened up rusted to fuck
what are you using to stop the rust process internally..

SupraSPL · Jun 8, 2015

According to Jair from Gavita you should change your bulbs and reflectors every year. Running your temps that hot will definitely max out yields if all esle is in order. You can run your canopy temps that hot with COBs by reducing your ventilation fan power and/or recycle the hot air, and you would have to keep temps up to maintain that high yield. But if you are determined to run that warm, your setup may be best suited to bare HPS Gavita style after all?

Never came across a rusted LED and I have some in use since 2009, but it would not surprise me if some generic junkers have a problem like that, but we don't recommend those as grow lamps.

churchhaze · Jun 8, 2015

I'm still waiting for the triple ended HPS.

Greengenes707 · Jun 8, 2015

AquariusPanta said:
I've seen a lot of sprectral distribution charts for Bridgelux and Cree COBS, but not very many for other lighting solutions. I know you've been around this technology for quite some time now, Supra; where do you think Vero and Cree COBS place amongst the other lighting options when it comes to sprectral distribution?

As far as PPFD goes, how many photons should we, as growers, be aiming towards throughout seedling/vegetation and flowering stages? In other words, what do you believe to be the ideal?

Not to be a dick...just a "concerned honest grower"...but shouldn't an LED company/person with an led company know these things? They are the basics of growing.

Darth Vapour · Jun 8, 2015

Supra you forgot the plasma lighting that have CRI 95 - 98

AquariusPanta · Jun 8, 2015

Greengenes707 said:
Not to be a dick...just a "concerned honest grower"...but shouldn't an LED company/person with an led company know these things? They are the basics of growing.

Lol, I appreciate your sincerity, Green; I was really asking the question of where the quality of light between Cree and Bridgelux COBS rank amongst other lighting solutions in regards to our plant's needs, rather than how the CRI stacks up. I could have been a littler clearer, I admit.

I wasn't looking for a definitive answer but was instead attempting to create conversation, rather than a pointless confrontation, lol.

O, and most times when someone starts off by saying "In all honesty" or "with all due respect', their intentions are typically opposite of what they say - not saying you aren't an exception, Genes, but...

O, and I'm more so a builder than a grower! I admit, I'm not as experienced a grower as the many who are here but I DO know what growers need in their tents and rooms when it comes to lighting, and that's where my fixtures come into play! These fixtures that I'm building from scratch will be considered ground breaking in comparison to all other marketed lighting fixtures, including your proposed 300W model.

Darth Vapour · Jun 8, 2015

churchhaze said:
I'm still waiting for the triple ended HPS.

i came up with one better for 25 sq feet plans are to run 1512 watts per 25 sq feet one LEP pro plasma in between Nano's giving me 60 .5 watts per Sq foot inprint probably more being lights will over lap each other
Being before i was @ 46 watts per sq foot and getting 47.2 grams per Sq foot or 2.599 pounds per 25 sq foot imprint with my strains i am working with .. 400 - 500 grams per m2 Pure power plant
my goals this year is 60.5 watts and hopefully 1300 + dry grams with previous test strain
will also try my latest creation strain that is crazy yields and with adding Blue dream into the equation i think this blue berry strain i am working will be a heavy hitter hoping it will be well over 3 - 3.5 pounds consistently ... 25 Sq foot imprint
Again making seeds presently, and out door so fall going to have to do bunch of seeds run moving strain forward

but its summer here so fall is when shit hits the Fan

djweed420 · Jun 8, 2015

SupraSPL said:
All good, PPFD is photon count/second, averaged over 1 meter² canopy. It brings us a step closer to accurately estimating how many photons we can get into the canopy. I run at about 750 PPFD and have been very happy with the nug size, not too big not too small. Works well an unruly canopy and mid yielding varieties.
View attachment 3436438

PPFD is only part of the story, spectral distribution, canopy temp and how evenly the light is spread will also affect the photosynthetic efficiency. This is a PPFD/temperature chart that is Cannabis specific
View attachment 3436440

I have not finished running the numbers comparing all of the Optic offerings yet and I really need to get on that before I can say what I think is the best deal. I suggested the Vero29 200 model because it would allow you to get an even spread in a 4X4, but the 360 model is cheaper/PAR W and offers the same efficiency. If you step up to the 500 model the drive current increases to 2.9A, resulting in a lower COB efficiency and higher temp droop (~38% vs 42%) Not a big deal but worth mentioning. I understand the convenience factor of having a single lamp rather than multiple lamps to hang, but my DIY setup has been rightly called the mothership armada

Thanks for your reply. I'm really learning from you! Can you explain why you recommend the Vero over the Cree? I know there's a price difference but the Cree has a higher PAR reading and Lux over the Vero? And if I choose to go this route would perhaps getting 3 smaller 200's be better for coverage for my 4 x 4 over a single unit? I'm not a fan of multiple lamps that's true but if it will be better for my set up I'll def consider it.

djweed420 · Jun 8, 2015

Greengenes707 said:
I love how you are question everything I do and me honesty/integrity...yet you PM me to help you build a light...why would you want my opinion/expertise if I am full of shit. Oh ya...because I am the only one who you don't have shit to talk other than the price. Is it your money...is it your garden...have I ever told you to buy an LED??? NO FUCKING SIR!!!
I just do my thing in my garden and post it. Openly and honestly. Take it or leave...but fuck off regardless.
You can ask any club that deals with me in my area about my product and weights. They used to never believe it came from LED either...at least not at first. Now my drops are awaited for their quality and potency. Top shelf reserve every time. From a boutique local grower...Me and my garden you see in my thread...from nowhere else. I used to run a 18K garden...so much fun...but am on a different path now(family).
My lights in my room(1K replacers) are 50-65lbs...there is no chance in hell i would take them down during a run. It's actually impossible with my scogg after the stretch. I wanted to change lenses a few runs ago and had to do it while it hung and reach over the canopy...damn near impossible.
I bought 15K worth of apache at120's and they let me down in comparison to hps. Straight up no lies, and it is all posted in here under tags420. That was in 2011 and since have worked hand in hand with AT as their tested to develop the AT600. The AT600 is my idea/design. I had 4 of my at120's set into a piece of plywood then brought it to AT in person. That is how the at600 was born. I don't hide any of my current or past involvement. I dropped 15K on them originally...my dues are paid son...you can suck it over my free prototype light that I designed...I barely call that even. I should have a perpetuity royalty...but I don't because that is not my game. I just wanted to help, and also have a light in my garden that would do what it is supposed to. And that is what I did and have.

You think I didn't tell AT all about COBS and how well they have been doing for me...hahah. Funny guy you are.
Of course I did, and I tried to push them towards them. But AT has their direction and ways of doing things. I get asked a 100 times a week to make lights, sell my protos, or walk people through a build. So much so that I gave in and did started my own light company. Does that change my results or my apaches results over the last 5 years...fuck no. Only makes honesty that much more important. When someone doesn't pull what I do...they would be pissed. And I wouldn't/don't want that. I am making an honest and quality product. It's 300w to replace 315cmh and 400hps with improved yields and quality. But it would not improve the yield of a 600hps...might be close in some grows/situations...but 80% it will not be close. And I don't/won't market it as a 600 replacement. I'm about honesty and integrity. I am a business major with a minor in general bio. Hence my position in the led world...it's just my nature. I'm industrious, driven, and intelligent. I have a full time job I go to every day in suit and tie. Then I come home and go to my other job...my garden. Then now to my other job...PLC. I don't have time to bull shit and play games. Results and quality products is all I have time and effort for.

And trust me bro...I hate getting tagged into a thread/conversion only to see that 5 other people have already used my grows and results to make their point. Others need to do what I did 3 times already. PS...in all 3 the LED had higher potency, and white based was higher than red/blue. Back in 2011 I didn't get/have terp test, so my apologies for only one side by side for the terps. But I have done it enough myself to not have to do it again, and to be able to use my results as tested and backed data. All though I probably will one day soon with a COB panel.

Hi Green thanks for popping by in my thread although I would have preferred if it were under more consulting and advice giving circumstances lol. But thanks for your comment and insight. I'm following and waiting to see what you release in due time! It's evidently clear that my original 4 LED options are clearly not the way to go for my first shot at LED lighting!

Just a quick question when you do launch your new co will you ship worldwide or only in the U.S.? I've seen quite a few co's only ship nationally unfortunately.

Help choosing an LED replacement for 1000HPS?

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