Hello All ... just a couple questions

SchmoeJoe

Well-Known Member
I have my worm bin sat in my kitchen. :mrgreen:
View attachment 4026508
Uses 30x50cm space and no, no smells, and no one leaves the bin, even though I have a bunch of crawly guys like rolypolys and millipedes in there too (actually that surprised me a bit, I was bracing myself for them to swarm out into MY space - and I insist on not sharing that haha - when they first appeared in there!).
So actually, vermicomposting is something for anyone anywhere, in theory. I am aware however that there are people who are so grossed out by the worms they wouldn't even get close to the bin haha
Cheers!
Now I'm definitely rethinking my "if I had more space" comment. I'm guessing you're using red wigglers? They also make great trout bait and would be decent feeders for the bass in the aquarium. How often do you have to thin them out?
 

calliandra

Well-Known Member
Now I'm definitely rethinking my "if I had more space" comment. I'm guessing you're using red wigglers? They also make great trout bait and would be decent feeders for the bass in the aquarium. How often do you have to thin them out?
Yes I got myself 1000 of them pretty exactly a year ago. Not sure how much they've multiplied, but I definitely want to start a second bin soon :) I don't really need to thin them out though, just have been able to feed more frequently as they get faster at processing.
I think the species that are usually also used for fishing are the dendrobena veneta, but don't quote me on that, worm species is one of those rabbit holes I've not gotten sucked into yet :bigjoint:
 

SchmoeJoe

Well-Known Member
Yes I got myself 1000 of them pretty exactly a year ago. Not sure how much they've multiplied, but I definitely want to start a second bin soon :) I don't really need to thin them out though, just have been able to feed more frequently as they get faster at processing.
I think the species that are usually also used for fishing are the dendrobena veneta, but don't quote me on that, worm species is one of those rabbit holes I've not gotten sucked into yet :bigjoint:
I'm not sure of the scientific names but the most common ones for bait are the bigger Canadian Nightcrawler and the ones that produce the actual cylindrical pointy ended pellets we're all used to seeing sold as ewc are the red wigglers. I'm not sure why but the red wigglers outfish the nightcrawlers for trout and panfish.

As far as gardening the red wigglers make better ewc and the nightcrawlers make bigger, better tunnels in the ground for improving drainage and aeration of garden beds.
 

calliandra

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure why but the red wigglers outfish the nightcrawlers for trout and panfish.
Ah that's cool to know!! :D
I guess it would depend on how much fishing you do whether you can source enough of them from your bin then, but just based on my own worm population in the past year I suspect you'd be covered and then some.
Besides, one can promote worm population growth with what one feeds them too. I've seen cardboard and avocado being expressly recommended for that, for example.
Cheers!
 

Cheesy Bo' Greesy

Well-Known Member
I have my worm bin sat in my kitchen. :mrgreen:
View attachment 4026508
Uses 30x50cm space and no, no smells, and no one leaves the bin, even though I have a bunch of crawly guys like rolypolys and millipedes in there too (actually that surprised me a bit, I was bracing myself for them to swarm out into MY space - and I insist on not sharing that haha - when they first appeared in there!).
So actually, vermicomposting is something for anyone anywhere, in theory. I am aware however that there are people who are so grossed out by the worms they wouldn't even get close to the bin haha
Cheers!
I had no idea they were that small. How much vermicompost can you pull out of one of those every month? THATS pretty nifty!

I'd consider putting one in the house but know the family would freak out lol. By the way whats your soil recipe Calliandra?
 

SchmoeJoe

Well-Known Member
Ah that's cool to know!! :D
I guess it would depend on how much fishing you do whether you can source enough of them from your bin then, but just based on my own worm population in the past year I suspect you'd be covered and then some.
Besides, one can promote worm population growth with what one feeds them too. I've seen cardboard and avocado being expressly recommended for that, for example.
Cheers!
I know that Roots Organic raised their own worms and feeds them a specific diet of things like rock dust. I want to say they feed kelp and alfalfa meal but I'm not sure. I'll look it up and repost. I may even try to figure out how to copy and paste from their site.

It looks like they don't get specific about what they feed their worms, just that it's "unparalleled and organic".
 
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Cheesy Bo' Greesy

Well-Known Member
The fresher the better on the ewc for sure. I actually live I'm the same town that Roots Organics and Down To Earth are in and even with their high product turnover on the local store shelves I just assume that their effectiveness as inoculants is at best questionable. If I had the space I'd definitely be doing my own.

Also, I'm a huge fan of adding extra organic matter/humus like ewc and aeration/texture improvers.
Joe wouldnt their innoculants have to be doing at least a little something or your plants wouldnt be growing well at all correct? Im just curious as to who has the best innoculants.

Theres a company called Wallace Organic Wonder that offers affordable mycos etc. Im curious if you guys have had any experience with them?

Ive used the sub cultures by GH, the innoculants by DTE and a couple others that I cannot remember the name of. All of them worked.

Any companies that you guys recommend staying away from?
 

SchmoeJoe

Well-Known Member
Joe wouldnt their innoculants have to be doing at least a little something or your plants wouldnt be growing well at all correct? Im just curious as to who has the best innoculants.

Theres a company called Wallace Organic Wonder that offers affordable mycos etc. Im curious if you guys have had any experience with them?

Ive used the sub cultures by GH, the innoculants by DTE and a couple others that I cannot remember the name of. All of them worked.

Any companies that you guys recommend staying away from?
Mostly I've used DTE Biolive and Roots Organism. Every crop I have visible patches of mycelium in my pots.
 

calliandra

Well-Known Member
I had no idea they were that small. How much vermicompost can you pull out of one of those every month? THATS pretty nifty!

I'd consider putting one in the house but know the family would freak out lol. By the way whats your soil recipe Calliandra?
At the moment I have a cycle of 3 months, and harvest 20L - the bins are 15cm deep. My upcoming build is going have shallower bins for a steadier supply ;)

Ah my soil, trust me, you don't want to know lol - it's clusterfuck at the moment, all experimental. ;)
But I start from scratch, nice classic thrids recipe of coco coir - mixed aeration including biochar - (vermic)compost.
Adding some kelp and ground eggshells is becoming pretty much standard too. The rest is still a blank haha
My focus at the mo is to get my compost to be the very best it can, as I'm exploring the theory that a well-rounded active microbial population is the only limiting factor we really need to worry about :bigjoint:
cheers!
 

calliandra

Well-Known Member
I know that Roots Organic raised their own worms and feeds them a specific diet of things like rock dust. I want to say they feed kelp and alfalfa meal but I'm not sure about. I'll look it up and repost. I may even try to figure out how to copy and paste from their site.

It looks like they don't get specific about what they feed their worms.
Yeah some people get really specific about inputs, it can be stressful. lol

I've let go of that a bit after hearing Elaine Ingham's reasoning and data regarding the question "are there enough/the right nutrients in there?".
If our inputs come from healthy plants, then all the nutrients a healthy plant needs will be in that plant debris. Making sure that debris gets added in good C:N ratios that will feed both bacteria and fungi (who mine those nutrients from the debris) and balance the bin, and that temps and humidity are within healthy ranges is just about all we need to do to get a good rich aerobic input for our soils.
We're just offering a maximum of diversity the plant will then chose from to promote their, and subsequently, its own vitality. Because there's nooo way we can know which specific strains of microbes a plant will want to have around at every moment of its growth cycle.

So that is the main focus when I go to make compost. Of course one could get more specific, and feed inputs more likely to contain the microbes present in their native habitats - for example, there are testate amoebae more likely to thrive where there are mosses, so if I want to grow something that would also grow there, adding that moss to the wormbin for its compost might be very well received.
We'd have to approach this type of specificty from a commonsensical, intuitive angle though, as microbiology at the moment is more busy discovering how much it doesn't know yet :D

Or maybe I'm just lazy :rolleyes:
cheers!
 

SchmoeJoe

Well-Known Member
Yeah some people get really specific about inputs, it can be stressful. lol

I've let go of that a bit after hearing Elaine Ingham's reasoning and data regarding the question "are there enough/the right nutrients in there?".
If our inputs come from healthy plants, then all the nutrients a healthy plant needs will be in that plant debris. Making sure that debris gets added in good C:N ratios that will feed both bacteria and fungi (who mine those nutrients from the debris) and balance the bin, and that temps and humidity are within healthy ranges is just about all we need to do to get a good rich aerobic input for our soils.
We're just offering a maximum of diversity the plant will then chose from to promote their, and subsequently, its own vitality. Because there's nooo way we can know which specific strains of microbes a plant will want to have around at every moment of its growth cycle.

So that is the main focus when I go to make compost. Of course one could get more specific, and feed inputs more likely to contain the microbes present in their native habitats - for example, there are testate amoebae more likely to thrive where there are mosses, so if I want to grow something that would also grow there, adding that moss to the wormbin for its compost might be very well received.
We'd have to approach this type of specificty from a commonsensical, intuitive angle though, as microbiology at the moment is more busy discovering how much it doesn't know yet :D

Or maybe I'm just lazy :rolleyes:
cheers!
Variety and balance are the keys to a healthy diet for pretty much everything else so it only makes sense to apply that to plants as well.
 
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SchmoeJoe

Well-Known Member
Yeah some people get really specific about inputs, it can be stressful. lol

I've let go of that a bit after hearing Elaine Ingham's reasoning and data regarding the question "are there enough/the right nutrients in there?".
If our inputs come from healthy plants, then all the nutrients a healthy plant needs will be in that plant debris. Making sure that debris gets added in good C:N ratios that will feed both bacteria and fungi (who mine those nutrients from the debris) and balance the bin, and that temps and humidity are within healthy ranges is just about all we need to do to get a good rich aerobic input for our soils.
We're just offering a maximum of diversity the plant will then chose from to promote their, and subsequently, its own vitality. Because there's nooo way we can know which specific strains of microbes a plant will want to have around at every moment of its growth cycle.

So that is the main focus when I go to make compost. Of course one could get more specific, and feed inputs more likely to contain the microbes present in their native habitats - for example, there are testate amoebae more likely to thrive where there are mosses, so if I want to grow something that would also grow there, adding that moss to the wormbin for its compost might be very well received.
We'd have to approach this type of specificty from a commonsensical, intuitive angle though, as microbiology at the moment is more busy discovering how much it doesn't know yet :D

Or maybe I'm just lazy :rolleyes:
cheers!
There's an article that I'm sure you'll appreciate called "Soil Sorcery, The Secret To Rich, Dark Carbon Capturing Soil? Treat Your Microbes Well".
 

Cheesy Bo' Greesy

Well-Known Member
At the moment I have a cycle of 3 months, and harvest 20L - the bins are 15cm deep. My upcoming build is going have shallower bins for a steadier supply ;)

Ah my soil, trust me, you don't want to know lol - it's clusterfuck at the moment, all experimental. ;)
But I start from scratch, nice classic thrids recipe of coco coir - mixed aeration including biochar - (vermic)compost.
Adding some kelp and ground eggshells is becoming pretty much standard too. The rest is still a blank haha
My focus at the mo is to get my compost to be the very best it can, as I'm exploring the theory that a well-rounded active microbial population is the only limiting factor we really need to worry about :bigjoint:
cheers!
Sounds sweet. Certainly cant beat bringing in 20 liters of fresh castings every 3 months. Quality trumps quantity in this case for certain.

Plus you get the pleasure of knowing your kitchen has a worm/bug farm in it lol. (Something I would certainly do if 4 other people ,who do not like bugs, didnt live in this household)

The bio char is definitely something Id like to explore further but can't for the life of me find it at an affordable price online or at least a price I feel comfortable with paying anyway.

Be sure to share your new bin with us when you get a chance Calliandra. Appreciate the input!
 

SchmoeJoe

Well-Known Member
Sounds sweet. Certainly cant beat bringing in 20 liters of fresh castings every 3 months. Quality trumps quantity in this case for certain.

Plus you get the pleasure of knowing your kitchen has a worm/bug farm in it lol. (Something I would certainly do if 4 other people ,who do not like bugs, didnt live in this household)

The bio char is definitely something Id like to explore further but can't for the life of me find it at an affordable price online or at least a price I feel comfortable with paying anyway.

Be sure to share your new bin with us when you get a chance Calliandra. Appreciate the input!
There are lots of video tutorials on YouTube about making your own biochar.
 

Cheesy Bo' Greesy

Well-Known Member
Yeah some people get really specific about inputs, it can be stressful. lol

I've let go of that a bit after hearing Elaine Ingham's reasoning and data regarding the question "are there enough/the right nutrients in there?".
If our inputs come from healthy plants, then all the nutrients a healthy plant needs will be in that plant debris. Making sure that debris gets added in good C:N ratios that will feed both bacteria and fungi (who mine those nutrients from the debris) and balance the bin, and that temps and humidity are within healthy ranges is just about all we need to do to get a good rich aerobic input for our soils.
We're just offering a maximum of diversity the plant will then chose from to promote their, and subsequently, its own vitality. Because there's nooo way we can know which specific strains of microbes a plant will want to have around at every moment of its growth cycle.

So that is the main focus when I go to make compost. Of course one could get more specific, and feed inputs more likely to contain the microbes present in their native habitats - for example, there are testate amoebae more likely to thrive where there are mosses, so if I want to grow something that would also grow there, adding that moss to the wormbin for its compost might be very well received.
We'd have to approach this type of specificty from a commonsensical, intuitive angle though, as microbiology at the moment is more busy discovering how much it doesn't know yet :D

Or maybe I'm just lazy :rolleyes:
cheers!

Well said!!!
 

calliandra

Well-Known Member
There's an article that I'm sure you'll appreciate called "Soil Sorcery, The Secret To Rich, Dark Carbon Capturing Soil? Treat Your Microbes Well".
Of course I had to go check it out right away, what a great morning read, thanks! :D
It's fascinating to see how similar conclusions are being reached from different perspectives. I wasn't aware of this agronomy-angle, and find it delightful how closely it matches up with what has been found in soil microbiology/ecology in the past decades.

While the idea of the soil being a living organism is not new, this has now been being looked into scientifically for the past few decades. And even though very little is known in detail, we have a good systemic working hypothesis of how the soil ecosystem should look at different stages of succession. A hypothesis that has proven itself true in countless practical cases, where farmers were able to leave synthetics behind whilst greatly improving their yields and the quality of their produce. The only ones who don't win on this one are the chemical industries :bigjoint:

I'm currently learning this approach with Elaine Ingham, and in fact, we even have benchmark numbers we try to attain for each of these stages, which are mainly expressed in the ratio of bacterial to fungal mass (it's mainly they who mine nutrients from the organic and mineral materials in the soil) along with the presence of higher-level predators (flagellates, amoebae, ciliates, nematodes, microarthropods..worms!) who will eat those bacteria and fungi, excrete any excess nutrients, and thus make those nutrients available to the plant.
We also know that bacteria prefer simpler sugars, proteins and carbohydrates for their food whilst the fungi like more complex and carbon-heavy foods.
So we can get a good approximation to the plant's needs just by combining the right amounts of nitrogen-rich and carbon-rich inputs, and providing adequate aeration.

And lookie there, the agronomists discovering that too, even without checking what's going on with the soil microherd - which if they did, would surely blow their minds :D
My hunch is they'd discover how with adding both C&N inputs as they're postulating, the diversity and complexity of the soil ecosystem increase dramatically (the more diverse the foods are, the more drama lol) - expressed not only in species of bacteria and fungi, but also in the presence of besaid predators.
That ecosystem can be more bacterial to accomodate short-lived crops or more fungal for perennials, it doesn't matter. But it has to include those higher level organisms to make the nutrients actually available to the plant, otherwise they just stay locked up in those little microbe bodies.
There's also a nice explanation of this all in the Soil Biology Primer published in 2000, also available online, here for example: https://extension.illinois.edu/soil/SoilBiology/soil_biology_primer.htm

Variety and balance are the keys to a healthy diet for pretty much everything else so it only makes sense to apply that to plants as well.
I know right! It's the simple beauty of it, that gut feeling of "yes, it feels true", that wows me over and over.
Cheers!
 

SchmoeJoe

Well-Known Member
Of course I had to go check it out right away, what a great morning read, thanks! :D
It's fascinating to see how similar conclusions are being reached from different perspectives. I wasn't aware of this agronomy-angle, and find it delightful how closely it matches up with what has been found in soil microbiology/ecology in the past decades.

While the idea of the soil being a living organism is not new, this has now been being looked into scientifically for the past few decades. And even though very little is known in detail, we have a good systemic working hypothesis of how the soil ecosystem should look at different stages of succession. A hypothesis that has proven itself true in countless practical cases, where farmers were able to leave synthetics behind whilst greatly improving their yields and the quality of their produce. The only ones who don't win on this one are the chemical industries :bigjoint:

I'm currently learning this approach with Elaine Ingham, and in fact, we even have benchmark numbers we try to attain for each of these stages, which are mainly expressed in the ratio of bacterial to fungal mass (it's mainly they who mine nutrients from the organic and mineral materials in the soil) along with the presence of higher-level predators (flagellates, amoebae, ciliates, nematodes, microarthropods..worms!) who will eat those bacteria and fungi, excrete any excess nutrients, and thus make those nutrients available to the plant.
We also know that bacteria prefer simpler sugars, proteins and carbohydrates for their food whilst the fungi like more complex and carbon-heavy foods.
So we can get a good approximation to the plant's needs just by combining the right amounts of nitrogen-rich and carbon-rich inputs, and providing adequate aeration.

And lookie there, the agronomists discovering that too, even without checking what's going on with the soil microherd - which if they did, would surely blow their minds :D
My hunch is they'd discover how with adding both C&N inputs as they're postulating, the diversity and complexity of the soil ecosystem increase dramatically (the more diverse the foods are, the more drama lol) - expressed not only in species of bacteria and fungi, but also in the presence of besaid predators.
That ecosystem can be more bacterial to accomodate short-lived crops or more fungal for perennials, it doesn't matter. But it has to include those higher level organisms to make the nutrients actually available to the plant, otherwise they just stay locked up in those little microbe bodies.
There's also a nice explanation of this all in the Soil Biology Primer published in 2000, also available online, here for example: https://extension.illinois.edu/soil/SoilBiology/soil_biology_primer.htm


I know right! It's the simple beauty of it, that gut feeling of "yes, it feels true", that wows me over and over.
Cheers!
I will definitely have to get a copy of that.
 

calliandra

Well-Known Member
Well said!!!
Thank you, glad it made some sense to you! :D

Sounds sweet. Certainly cant beat bringing in 20 liters of fresh castings every 3 months. Quality trumps quantity in this case for certain.

Plus you get the pleasure of knowing your kitchen has a worm/bug farm in it lol. (Something I would certainly do if 4 other people ,who do not like bugs, didnt live in this household)

The bio char is definitely something Id like to explore further but can't for the life of me find it at an affordable price online or at least a price I feel comfortable with paying anyway.

Be sure to share your new bin with us when you get a chance Calliandra. Appreciate the input!
Ah well, the new bin is basically going to be very much like one Grandpa GreenJeans built a while ago: https://www.rollitup.org/t/vermicomposters-unite-official-worm-farmers-thread.637587/page-36#post-12309700
That thread has some awesome info on it btw, though due to its length it's become almost unmanageable lol

Ah yes, I do quite hear you regarding grossed-out reactions to the bin :D
Just shortly, I inadvertently scared a friend of mine when I wanted to show her my adorable worms and she literally jumped back when I started opening the bin, never even looked inside lol
I had totally forgotten how gross they may seem to people, though her case was extreme!
But it reminded me of how in the beginning handling the worms (like if some fell out when I'd open the bin) grossed me out too - o.m.g. the distress when the first mites and whiteworms showed up! - and me getting all itchy when I saw the first centipedes appear in there too!

As for the biochar, yeah it's great stuff when made right (which has to do with high temperatures and low oxygen levels). I'm extremely lucky to have a friend who brought me a bucketful these past two years, else my mixes wouldn't be getting any. I once went to a talk on it, and the guy said we could make it ourselves even in really small amounts (so I could make a few handfuls at a time on my dapartment deck? haha), but nah, very sadly that doesn't work - no way you get those high temps going.
So while I do enjoy having it, as it is a very likeable material to me (as opposed to perlite, which I found I don't like at all), I do wonder whether - besides the fact we have to charge it with nitrogen to balance out its pretty much 100% carbon - there is a such big difference to using, say, pumice. Both are aeration, and both provide structures for the microbes to hold on to. Yes they will be different microbes, and yes, the biochar is a carbon source which mineral aeration is not.. but we can add that carbon in other forms too.
So no end of the world if we don't have biochar in there too!

That said, if you find something doable on your quest, please do share! :D
cheers!
 

Cheesy Bo' Greesy

Well-Known Member
Thank you, glad it made some sense to you! :D


Ah well, the new bin is basically going to be very much like one Grandpa GreenJeans built a while ago: https://www.rollitup.org/t/vermicomposters-unite-official-worm-farmers-thread.637587/page-36#post-12309700
That thread has some awesome info on it btw, though due to its length it's become almost unmanageable lol

Ah yes, I do quite hear you regarding grossed-out reactions to the bin :D
Just shortly, I inadvertently scared a friend of mine when I wanted to show her my adorable worms and she literally jumped back when I started opening the bin, never even looked inside lol
I had totally forgotten how gross they may seem to people, though her case was extreme!
But it reminded me of how in the beginning handling the worms (like if some fell out when I'd open the bin) grossed me out too - o.m.g. the distress when the first mites and whiteworms showed up! - and me getting all itchy when I saw the first centipedes appear in there too!

As for the biochar, yeah it's great stuff when made right (which has to do with high temperatures and low oxygen levels). I'm extremely lucky to have a friend who brought me a bucketful these past two years, else my mixes wouldn't be getting any. I once went to a talk on it, and the guy said we could make it ourselves even in really small amounts (so I could make a few handfuls at a time on my dapartment deck? haha), but nah, very sadly that doesn't work - no way you get those high temps going.
So while I do enjoy having it, as it is a very likeable material to me (as opposed to perlite, which I found I don't like at all), I do wonder whether - besides the fact we have to charge it with nitrogen to balance out its pretty much 100% carbon - there is a such big difference to using, say, pumice. Both are aeration, and both provide structures for the microbes to hold on to. Yes they will be different microbes, and yes, the biochar is a carbon source which mineral aeration is not.. but we can add that carbon in other forms too.
So no end of the world if we don't have biochar in there too!

That said, if you find something doable on your quest, please do share! :D
cheers!
Two thumbs up on these posts. Good stuff. Please by all means continue to enlighten us.
Of course I had to go check it out right away, what a great morning read, thanks! :D
It's fascinating to see how similar conclusions are being reached from different perspectives. I wasn't aware of this agronomy-angle, and find it delightful how closely it matches up with what has been found in soil microbiology/ecology in the past decades.

While the idea of the soil being a living organism is not new, this has now been being looked into scientifically for the past few decades. And even though very little is known in detail, we have a good systemic working hypothesis of how the soil ecosystem should look at different stages of succession. A hypothesis that has proven itself true in countless practical cases, where farmers were able to leave synthetics behind whilst greatly improving their yields and the quality of their produce. The only ones who don't win on this one are the chemical industries :bigjoint:

I'm currently learning this approach with Elaine Ingham, and in fact, we even have benchmark numbers we try to attain for each of these stages, which are mainly expressed in the ratio of bacterial to fungal mass (it's mainly they who mine nutrients from the organic and mineral materials in the soil) along with the presence of higher-level predators (flagellates, amoebae, ciliates, nematodes, microarthropods..worms!) who will eat those bacteria and fungi, excrete any excess nutrients, and thus make those nutrients available to the plant.
We also know that bacteria prefer simpler sugars, proteins and carbohydrates for their food whilst the fungi like more complex and carbon-heavy foods.
So we can get a good approximation to the plant's needs just by combining the right amounts of nitrogen-rich and carbon-rich inputs, and providing adequate aeration.

And lookie there, the agronomists discovering that too, even without checking what's going on with the soil microherd - which if they did, would surely blow their minds :D
My hunch is they'd discover how with adding both C&N inputs as they're postulating, the diversity and complexity of the soil ecosystem increase dramatically (the more diverse the foods are, the more drama lol) - expressed not only in species of bacteria and fungi, but also in the presence of besaid predators.
That ecosystem can be more bacterial to accomodate short-lived crops or more fungal for perennials, it doesn't matter. But it has to include those higher level organisms to make the nutrients actually available to the plant, otherwise they just stay locked up in those little microbe bodies.
There's also a nice explanation of this all in the Soil Biology Primer published in 2000, also available online, here for example: https://extension.illinois.edu/soil/SoilBiology/soil_biology_primer.htm


I know right! It's the simple beauty of it, that gut feeling of "yes, it feels true", that wows me over and over.
Cheers!
Excellent input. This is the kind of reading we need more of. Please continue to share the knowledge.

Thanks to everyone for handing down some valuable info.
 
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