Getting sick of looking at nutrient schedules....

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sidewing

Well-Known Member
just use powdered maxigrow dude.. all through veg and flower.. don't buy into the hype. the ratio is perfect for growing cannabis in veg and flower.. I personally run that, dutch master gold silica, and AN's ph down.. i add the silica first, add the maxigrow next.. and then adjust with AN's PH down. with RO water, my ph drifts up slowly over the week.. so i adjust it to 5.5, then by the end of the week its at around 6.3.. so the plant gets the full spectrum of nutrient availability.
my plants are extremely healthy green.. then for the last 7 days go water only. it will be the best quality herb you've ever grown and so simple its dumb.
keep your EC right around 1.2. DWC needs minimal and is a different beast than other methods of growing. trust me ive tried it all. maxigrow is the best 1 part nutrient you can run period.
 
S

sidewing

Well-Known Member
just an fyi.. you need 1 ratio to grow cannabis in veg and flower.. it doesn't change. you don't go crazy high on the phosphorus during flower like you're led to believe. when you raise one, it blocks uptake/availability of another.. it has to be a perfect balance..
when i would mix my raw salts i had the best results with this ratio all through veg and flower:
N-100ppm
P-50ppm
K-200ppm
Mg-50ppm
Ca-100ppm
S-75ppm
Fe-3ppm
Zn-0.4ppm
B-0.3ppm
Mn-1ppm
Cu-0.2ppm
Mo-0.1ppm

2-1-4-2-1-1.5 (N-P-K-Ca-Mg-S)

I put many hours of research into nutrient availability and ratios (not to mention many cycles trying different mixtures) and how they all need to be in proper balance and thats where i ended up.. maxigro, while not perfect is very close to this ratio.. for the price and simplicity.. it can't be beat as the ultimate 1 part nutrient.

green healthy leaves grow fat quality buds.. keeping the leaves healthy all through flower should be your #1 goal.. and keep your ppm's as low as possible without affecting plant health.. i find 1.2ec is perfect. (600ppm @ .5 conversion). as long as you arent pumping your plant full of salts @ 1000+ ppm, you will not have any flavor issues at all in your final product.
 
mytwhyt

mytwhyt

Well-Known Member
Can't see why i should change just because of what you use.... If it works for you, keep using it... Lets see a little show and tell with a couple of your plants... I'll show you mine, if you show me yours.....
https://www.rollitup.org/t/sun-systems-lec-315-reviews.742794/page-11
Even with a consensus of opinions on what to use, i'm slow to change what works for me when i never have any problems.... impress me and i may just try it, if i think i can do better.... It's all about, always trying to grow a better plant..... I've reached a point where i've stopped trying to do better with nutes.... Now i think with a little more fine tuning, i'll get to 1.5 grams per watt...
 
Yesdog

Yesdog

Well-Known Member
sidewing said:
just an fyi.. you need 1 ratio to grow cannabis in veg and flower.. it doesn't change. you don't go crazy high on the phosphorus during flower like you're led to believe. when you raise one, it blocks uptake/availability of another.. it has to be a perfect balance..
when i would mix my raw salts i had the best results with this ratio all through veg and flower:
N-100ppm
P-50ppm
K-200ppm
Mg-50ppm
Ca-100ppm
S-75ppm
Fe-3ppm
Zn-0.4ppm
B-0.3ppm
Mn-1ppm
Cu-0.2ppm
Mo-0.1ppm

2-1-4-2-1-1.5 (N-P-K-Ca-Mg-S)

I put many hours of research into nutrient availability and ratios (not to mention many cycles trying different mixtures) and how they all need to be in proper balance and thats where i ended up.. maxigro, while not perfect is very close to this ratio.. for the price and simplicity.. it can't be beat as the ultimate 1 part nutrient.

green healthy leaves grow fat quality buds.. keeping the leaves healthy all through flower should be your #1 goal.. and keep your ppm's as low as possible without affecting plant health.. i find 1.2ec is perfect. (600ppm @ .5 conversion). as long as you arent pumping your plant full of salts @ 1000+ ppm, you will not have any flavor issues at all in your final product.
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Very interesting, thanks for sharing! Recently through my own research I'm starting to realize how tricky phosphorus is in a nutrient mix. Finally got a straight answer on *how* phosphorus interrupts nutrient intake, and its pretty damn simple-

Phosphorus just tends to form more 'stable' (insoluble, or partially insoluble) salts with metal ions- so it'll 'lock up' nutrients in a suspended (cloudy) or precipitate state. The ions will eventually be free with low enough ppm and time, but it also doesnt react evenly with all cations so it might start by dropping out most of your iron first, or most of your calcium. Basically at some point you're 'feeding' the phosphorus and you can't be 100% sure what nutrient(s) its locking up. I guess calcium phosphate is a little more soluble, but it still causes cloudiness and can mess with your ph.

At least in most regular nutrient solutions, when you're chelating micro nutrients, you're generally protecting them against phosphorus =\

Metal chelate compounds are common components of fertilizers to provide micronutrients. These micronutrients (manganese, iron, zinc, copper) are required for the health of the plants. Most fertilizers contain phosphate salts that, in the absence of chelating agents, typically convert these metal ions into insoluble solids that are of no nutritional value to the plants. EDTA is the typical chelating agent that keeps these metal ions in a soluble form.[/QUOTE]
Click to expand...
 
Yesdog

Yesdog

Well-Known Member
mytwhyt said:
Can't see why i should change just because of what you use.... If it works for you, keep using it... Lets see a little show and tell with a couple of your plants... I'll show you mine, if you show me yours.....
https://www.rollitup.org/t/sun-systems-lec-315-reviews.742794/page-11
Even with a consensus of opinions on what to use, i'm slow to change what works for me when i never have any problems.... impress me and i may just try it, if i think i can do better.... It's all about, always trying to grow a better plant..... I've reached a point where i've stopped trying to do better with nutes.... Now i think with a little more fine tuning, i'll get to 1.5 grams per watt...
Click to expand...
So far you guys are all pretty much in the same ballpark. most of you run more N and calcium than lucas (which makes sense from what ive heard, can run def on N and Ca), seems P:K ratio and PK quantity are the real debate.


(N-P-K-Ca-Mg-S elemental) normalized around Ca ppm
2-2-4-2-1 -1 [lucas formula] low N/Ca or high PK
2-1-4-2-1 -1.5 [sidewing] low P:K ratio
2-1-2-2-1 -0.5 [firsttimeARE] higher N/Ca lucas, or lower K
2-2-4-2-1 -1 [mytwhyt] (4-4-7-4-2-2) same as lucas
2-1-3-2-1 -0.5 [yesdog's proposed] lower P:K ratio
 
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Yesdog

Yesdog

Well-Known Member
then hopefully for flower, i can somehow figure out a mix for 1-2-3-2-1.5 (or 1-2-4-2-1.5). I still need to read more about how P affects vegetative growth- ive seen things say it'll cause stretch during flowering, also saw things that says you need higher P:K in flower =\
 
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Yesdog

Yesdog

Well-Known Member
gah, found this again finally: http://www.growersunderground.com/PhosphorusMyth.pdf

Based on the material analysis of the plant itself- does show really low P compared to NK across the board, but has a bit more P during flower. Somebody did the comparisons, and i think dutchmaster gold matched the ratios perfectly.

EDIT: oh, and AN. I guess this was their study
 
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S

sidewing

Well-Known Member
I'm at work.. But this evening I'll post some info and pics. Of course if it's working keep with it. But I'll try my best to explain why raising p in flower is a bad idea.. Especially in hydro.
 
S

sidewing

Well-Known Member
Sorry I've been trying to get on the wifi for over a hour.. Comcast having issues. Will have to try again later.
 
S

sidewing

Well-Known Member
Just to fill a little in for now.. The reason people pump phosphorus during flower is from soil growers.. Sources of p are very insoluble.. Meaning you have to put a shit ton of it in order to get enough broken down for the plant to use. Using raw salts, you don't have that issue. It's already broken down, and fully available.. Another issue with soil is run off.. With dwc you don't have any waste. It's in direct contact with the roots and fully soluble and available to the plant... Hence running lower ec/ppms. The goal is to give the plant just enough. Plant will grow best when given just enough before the point of deficiency.. When you give it higher levels of concentration, the plant performs more poorly.

So.. That aside.. Now comes the proper ratio of nutrients that cannabis needs. Mentioned above. That ratio is geared to provide maximum availability of all the nutrients. As you increase the levels of one, it blocks another.. I have a bunch of good pics illustrating this on pc that I'll have to attach later.. But for now here's a starting point:
Look up mulders chart..
Phosphorus practically blocks availability of nearly every other nutrient.. By pumping your plant full of it during flower (because thats what these nutrient companies lead us to believe) you're hurting the plant more than you're gaining.. That's why high p causes yellowing. High p also gives harsh flavor. Yes the plant does use more phosphorus during flower.. But it's such a small amount more, that you don't need to adjust your nutrients.. Especially in dwc where you're giving a fresh reservoir mix weekly (hopefully?). The most important thing you can do to have big healthy quality harvests is to keep your roots healthy and keep your fan leaves green and healthy (they generate all the energy to make buds).. And keep your nutrient ratios balanced.
 
S

sidewing

Well-Known Member
Yesdog said:
So far you guys are all pretty much in the same ballpark. most of you run more N and calcium than lucas (which makes sense from what ive heard, can run def on N and Ca), seems P:K ratio and PK quantity are the real debate.


(N-P-K-Ca-Mg-S elemental) normalized around Ca ppm
2-2-4-2-1 -1 [lucas formula] low N/Ca or high PK
2-1-4-2-1 -1.5 [sidewing] low P:K ratio
2-1-2-2-1 -0.5 [firsttimeARE] higher N/Ca lucas, or lower K
2-2-4-2-1 -1 [mytwhyt] (4-4-7-4-2-2) same as lucas
2-1-3-2-1 -0.5 [yesdog's proposed] lower P:K ratio
Click to expand...
From my research and testing.. N = ca.. P = half to equal sulfur.. K = double calcium.. And magnesium half of ca and equal to p.

I think lucas formula has yellowing because not only too low of nitrogen/calcium.. But the higher levels of p.. Blocking the availability of the former.
The macros all need to adhere to these ratios, not simply a p:k ratio.
Cannabis is a forgiving plant.. Many things will work.
Dwc however is not forgiving. Raw salts in direct contact with the root zone will show you what's wrong.
Everything I've posted is from heavy research.. Excellent guidance from old timers and educated folk in that field of study, and personal experimentation. Growing for several years myself I've done it all and tried it all.. In hind sight I would have saved a ton of time and money just running maxigro from start to finish. A 2 pound bag is like 15 bucks and you use a teaspoon for every 2 gallons roughly.. A 1 part nutrient. I spend 15 bucks every 6 months on nutrients currently.
 
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420producer

420producer

Well-Known Member
Yesdog said:
Trying to settle on a new nutrient schedule for this grow, getting bored/confused/frustrated already. The full gamut.

I just noticed today my printout GH schedule doesn't even sorta match the schedule on the back of the trio bottles. Plus the growweedeasy reduced schedule also doesnt seem to match the ratios on either schedule... plus started looking at Mel Frank's, different yet again.

Looking over this writeup for the Lucas Formula (and other scheduling stuff) (http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/profiles.htm) it's really starting to sound like the ratios really don't matter too much. You just want to avoid over-dosing your plants on any one thing (sounds like mostly nitrogen and cal/mag are the ones you need to worry about).

Everything I've read has said that the 'RO water' requirement for the lucas formula really only exists for simplicity and fail-safe sake. Looking over the various breakdown of the other profiles, they seem to differ up to 20 ppm Mg- so as far as I can tall, my 7-8 ppm Mg (from water report) isn't going to screw with it much (my 30-50ppm cal might tho).

I also see debate over whether or not calmag is needed with Lucas, and as far as the cantina article states- "reasonably good quality source water" is needed. So if there really is wiggle-room there for cal-mag, i cant possibly imagine tap water getting in the way.

Also, looking at the raw concentration of Micro, it's not really much more than some of the GH schedules I've seen, and its definitely less than Mel Frank's recommendation.

So at the end of the day.... I think I might try the Lucas Formula with my tap water. Now what I'm wondering, is it worth it to modify the schedule to replace some Micro with Grow (for nitrogen) if I'm worried my water might be too hard? The cantina article really makes it sound like you actually have pretty good margins to work with, you just have to worry about over-feeding.

So to me it makes more sense to go the pessimistic (and possibly underfeeding route) of putting some grow back into the schedule (thinking 4M-1G-10B ratio). This should really only affect the ratio of N/K to micro-nutes (with biggest worry placed on excess micro nutes). I noticed the total K in Lucas is a little lower than the other schedules, so I don't think the increased K will be much of an issue.
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most tap water in colorado is very low roughly 069 ppm from faucet in noco... in coco i did a mod lucas formula . reason?? it was what was left by the previous grower.. and was ask tot use it cuz they had in 6 gal jugs. so i did 4 ml micro/ 4 ml .cal mag and 8 ml bloom and a drop or 2 of ph down per gal and let it aerate for 1 hour and recheck ph to be 5.8 or slightly orange with the drops. the hour wait is to get the ph down to a molecular level just shaking jug and then testing it and giving to plant does not get t every single molecule... test my theory and leave the they water sitting and watch it turn green to blue over that time or pour it in until you get runoff and and test that water coming out. most likely green to blue... this is how you get your lock out.imo.. in flower the recipe is 4. micro/6 cal 16 bloom an 16 coolbloom and 4 ml of pk 13/14 for bloom fed twice week one of gloom only 6.0 ph water with a lot of run off. test runoff should be no more than 6.0 coming out. did not like using it that way cuz each stain likes or wants a different ratio of the nutes so hand watering is a must after week one its 6ml micro /6 ml cal/ mag and 12 bloom and 12 cool bloom roughly 1100 ppm at a ph of 5.8,, ps always look at ph as your first issue of any def.plant has if water going in good and coming out higher...get that part dialed in first then grow these monster colas with that formula in coco
 

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Yesdog

Yesdog

Well-Known Member
420producer said:
most tap water in colorado is very low roughly 069 ppm from faucet in noco... in coco i did a mod lucas formula . reason?? it was what was left by the previous grower.. and was ask tot use it cuz they had in 6 gal jugs. so i did 4 ml micro/ 4 ml .cal mag and 8 ml bloom and a drop or 2 of ph down per gal and let it aerate for 1 hour and recheck ph to be 5.8 or slightly orange with the drops. the hour wait is to get the ph down to a molecular level just shaking jug and then testing it and giving to plant does not get t every single molecule... test my theory and leave the they water sitting and watch it turn green to blue over that time or pour it in until you get runoff and and test that water coming out. most likely green to blue... this is how you get your lock out.imo.. in flower the recipe is 4. micro/6 cal 16 bloom an 16 coolbloom and 4 ml of pk 13/14 for bloom fed twice week one of gloom only 6.0 ph water with a lot of run off. test runoff should be no more than 6.0 coming out. did not like using it that way cuz each stain likes or wants a different ratio of the nutes so hand watering is a must after week one its 6ml micro /6 ml cal/ mag and 12 bloom and 12 cool bloom roughly 1100 ppm at a ph of 5.8,, ps always look at ph as your first issue of any def.plant has if water going in good and coming out higher...get that part dialed in first then grow these monster colas with that formula in coco
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Yea I'm getting about 70-80 ppm out of the faucet (about 40-50ppm Ca)- lots of calcium!

As far as different plants liking different nute ratios- definitely harder to tune with lucas. Although the more I hear about P toxicity, the more I believe you can reduce that sensitivity by having a more 'accessible' (low P) nute mix.
 
Yesdog

Yesdog

Well-Known Member
sidewing said:
Just to fill a little in for now.. The reason people pump phosphorus during flower is from soil growers.. Sources of p are very insoluble.. Meaning you have to put a shit ton of it in order to get enough broken down for the plant to use. Using raw salts, you don't have that issue. It's already broken down, and fully available.. Another issue with soil is run off.. With dwc you don't have any waste. It's in direct contact with the roots and fully soluble and available to the plant... Hence running lower ec/ppms. The goal is to give the plant just enough. Plant will grow best when given just enough before the point of deficiency.. When you give it higher levels of concentration, the plant performs more poorly.

So.. That aside.. Now comes the proper ratio of nutrients that cannabis needs. Mentioned above. That ratio is geared to provide maximum availability of all the nutrients. As you increase the levels of one, it blocks another.. I have a bunch of good pics illustrating this on pc that I'll have to attach later.. But for now here's a starting point:
Look up mulders chart..
Phosphorus practically blocks availability of nearly every other nutrient.. By pumping your plant full of it during flower (because thats what these nutrient companies lead us to believe) you're hurting the plant more than you're gaining.. That's why high p causes yellowing. High p also gives harsh flavor. Yes the plant does use more phosphorus during flower.. But it's such a small amount more, that you don't need to adjust your nutrients.. Especially in dwc where you're giving a fresh reservoir mix weekly (hopefully?). The most important thing you can do to have big healthy quality harvests is to keep your roots healthy and keep your fan leaves green and healthy (they generate all the energy to make buds).. And keep your nutrient ratios balanced.
Click to expand...
Curious to see that pic. I've definitely heard similar things about the nutrient ratios to each other- all of those seem different than the ratios found in the material analysis though, so I'm guessing thats where the 'lock out' comes in. Ca seems to be found in actually rather low ratios inside the plant (about as much as P), but I'm guessing there's all sorts of difficulties getting that nutrient into the plant and managing it correctly- might need to be more concentrated etc. which should be super easy with my tap water lol

that material analysis shows a content of about:

between:

3.5-0.5-3-2-0.5-0.5 (veg)
and
3.5-1-4-1-0.5-0.5 (flower)

which im willing to just call
3-1-4-2-1-1
 
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Yesdog

Yesdog

Well-Known Member
alright, so i ended up with....

5ml/gal GH Micro + 7ml/gal GH Grow + 0.8g/gal MgSO4 (epsom)

This puts me at almost exactly 3-1-4-2-1-1 (but a little high on the calcium). Because im using tap water with 50ppm calcium already, I bought Canna Vega A which seems a lot like GH Micro but lower Ca- so ill probably use a 50/50 mix (between vega/micro) to keep calcium at bay. Puts me at about:

120ppm N
30ppm P
140ppm K
100ppm Ca
50ppm Mg
30ppm S
<humics, Si, etc>

Total calculated ppm- 600ppm

did some additional research, and P below 50ppm is ideal for healthy ionic activity. I'll be using GH phDown which is mostly P based, so as the P gets gradually used up (and my ph rises) I can supplement it with phDown. pH down also has some N which should help when N starts to get consumed (also will raise ph).

I'll be trying to regulate ph in my initial mix with humic acid only! No additional nutrient content until it starts moving from the optimum.

I'm also far better as far as ammoniacal nitrate compared to some other regiments- was reading that most N toxicity is from ammoniacal nitrogen, and that plants actually regulate nitrate nitrogen very well. this could also be why some programs require "more intense" lighting conditions- the plant is forced to cope with the ammoniacal N and needs to boost its metabolism to keep up.

EDIT: P toxicity may also force the plant to grow faster than it needs to- tissue that isn't "targeted" for growth may start to consume energy faster than desired. From what I read this mostly leads to stretching/stem growth. So you might get slower veg growth with low P, but the plant can regulate itself better.
 
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S

sidewing

Well-Known Member
Yep, I was instructed at one point to run 20 ppm of p in dwc.. But I was hesitant because of the high p hype.. So I went with 50 instead. Lower should be fine.
 
Yesdog

Yesdog

Well-Known Member
sidewing said:
Yep, I was instructed at one point to run 20 ppm of p in dwc.. But I was hesitant because of the high p hype.. So I went with 50 instead. Lower should be fine.
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hah, yea i think the exact ranges i saw recommended, compared with ranges from icmag of ones that worked (with pictures), was about 20-50ppm. So that definitely sounds like the ideal range.

Once i started doing more phosphorus related searches, the connection/mechanics became super clear. P is mostly used by the plant for 'stabilizing' many different organics and aiding in transport, as well as being a major part of the ATP/energy cycles. The plant also tends to store extra P when its available because it will stay with the plant for its lifetime. It is extremely mobile and really never expelled (except during toxicity), that's why it slows growth in deficiencies- the plant simply can't create and move sugars fast enough. So in the end the plant only needs so much phosphorus per... gram of its own tissue, and it's really good at extracting more from the soil/water when it needs more, but its not great at regulating excess (which is rare in natural soil).

I'm also starting to wonder if anyone has ever really seen a P deficiency in hydro- it sounds pretty much impossible. It sounds like with soil, you mostly get a time-release of low ppm phosphates that kind of 'replenish themselves' as the ppm drops (partially soluble phosphate deposits, usually with non-chelated micros). I'll be adding phosphate based phDown through the rez cycle- basically ill be time releasing P into the system as it drops. Same thing the soil deposits would do.
 
Yesdog

Yesdog

Well-Known Member
hah, and last thing for those of us running bennies:

mychorrizae don't like P much above 50ppm. They may shield your roots from the impact, but the mycelium can start to shed, or stop growing.
 
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