Do you believe in God?

Do you believe in God?

  • Yes

    Votes: 71 34.6%
  • No

    Votes: 122 59.5%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 12 5.9%

  • Total voters
    205

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Hey, no need to get pissed off, we just disagree on an issue.
But the fact is, you said Darwins finches cannot interbreed with other finches and that is blatantly incorrect., so calling me ignorant is a bit short of hilarious.
Have a nice day.
No, I said different species of animal can't breed with other species

And science doesn't work that way. Science is objective, your opinion is subjective


The objective fact is evolution is demonstrably real, you're wrong.

 

callitgood

Member
No, I said different species of animal can't breed with other species

And science doesn't work that way. Science is objective, your opinion is subjective


The objective fact is evolution is demonstrably real, you're wrong.


6. Finch from different Islands in the Galapagos all came from the same finch, but over time and isolation from it's parent species, they evolved into completely new species of finch that could no longer reproduce with the original finch. Macroevolution right in front of your eyes, in 1832.. The same thing happened with a species of salamander in California


The finch's in the Galapagos are an example of evolution; 1 species evolving into a completely new species, this is a fact
Sure you said it, here's your post above.
And here is the proof I provided that refutes your "scientific" claim.

"Galápagos finch species are capable of interbreeding -- but adds a new twist: they're interbreeding so much that in multiple cases, two "species" may be fusing back into one species."
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/03/nature_galapago083531.html

Now, what else are you wrong about is the question.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Sure you said it, here's your post above.
And here is the proof I provided that refutes your "scientific" claim.

"Galápagos finch species are capable of interbreeding -- but adds a new twist: they're interbreeding so much that in multiple cases, two "species" may be fusing back into one species."
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/03/nature_galapago083531.html

Now, what else are you wrong about is the question.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

How exactly does that discredit the theory of evolution in any way?

There are still the 7 previous points made, you had no answer and claimed science didn't either. I showed you science does have the answer. Did you just forget about that or what?

If you did, here they are again;

1. How do you explain how all living things share DNA based on how closely related organisms are?
2. How do you explain how all life forms on Earth are carbon based?
3. How do you explain vestigial appendages and organs?
4. How do you explain why chickens have the genetic code to make teeth, but have no teeth?
5. How do you explain why whales and dolphins swim vertically (like mammals run on land) but all fish swim horizontally?
6. How do you explain Darwin's famous finch observations?
7. How do you explain the fact that there's never been a single instance of an older, less complex organism being above a younger, more complex organism in the different layers of strata?
8. How do you explain the power of prediction, like the example I cited earlier with tiktaalik? Scientists knew where to look, what to look for and in what age rocks they would likely find the animal in, and they did. How do you explain that?
Here's a new one, why do humans have 46 chromosomes while the other higher apes have 48, and what is the significance of that?


Are you going to just ignore this post and pretend it never happened again, or actually try to refute any of it?
 

callitgood

Member
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

How exactly does that discredit the theory of evolution in any way?

There are still the 7 previous points made, you had no answer and claimed science didn't either. I showed you science does have the answer. Did you just forget about that or what?

If you did, here they are again;


Here's a new one, why do humans have 46 chromosomes while the other higher apes have 48, and what is the significance of that?

Are you going to just ignore this post and pretend it never happened again, or actually try to refute any of it?
with all due respect, like me, you haven't shown a thing but scientific opinions.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
with all due respect, like me, you haven't shown a thing but scientific opinions.
OK, lets go point by point then..

Why do all living organisms on Earth share the same DNA structure?

Science says that organisms that share the same DNA structure are related. That's a scientific fact.

Now what part do you think is opinion?

If I get 50% of my genetic material from my dad and the other 50% from my mom, you can scientifically verify that I am related to both of my parents. This exact same thing works for different species when looking for a common ancestor. For example, chimpanzees and bonobos share 99% of our DNA. How could you possibly say that we are not related? How else would they end up with nearly identical DNA?


http://news.sciencemag.org/plants-animals/2012/06/bonobos-join-chimps-closest-human-relatives
 

callitgood

Member
OK, lets go point by point then..

Why do all living organisms on Earth share the same DNA structure?

Science says that organisms that share the same DNA structure are related. That's a scientific fact.

Now what part do you think is opinion?

If I get 50% of my genetic material from my dad and the other 50% from my mom, you can scientifically verify that I am related to both of my parents. This exact same thing works for different species when looking for a common ancestor. For example, chimpanzees and bonobos share 99% of our DNA. How could you possibly say that we are not related? How else would they end up with nearly identical DNA?


http://news.sciencemag.org/plants-animals/2012/06/bonobos-join-chimps-closest-human-relatives
All organisms possess dna structural material, the difference in their dna is the sequence of the base-pairs within the dna, but that does not prove their origin, just their existence.

You think you are arguing evolution with me but you are not, you are arguing the theory with other scientists, so good luck with that.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
All organisms possess dna structural material, the difference in their dna is the sequence of the base-pairs within the dna, but that does not prove their origin, just their existence.

You think you are arguing evolution with me but you are not, you are arguing the theory with other scientists, so good luck with that.
It proves all life on earth is related. The fact that we share more DNA with organisms that are closely related to us supports this. For example, humans share more DNA with primates than with birds, reptiles and plants because our common ancestor was more recent on the time scale. That ancestor lived ~5-8 million years ago, the common ancestor we share with birds, reptiles and plants lived a lot longer ago than that, therefore we share less DNA, again, completely consistent with the theory of evolution

Moving on..

How do you explain why all life on earth is carbon based?

Because it can easily bond with oxygen, hydrogen and nitrogen to form complex molecules. Again, this is strong evidence that is consistent with the theory of evolution

So what other scientists are you talking about?
 

loquacious

Well-Known Member
Jesus gives amazing handjobs and god can suck a dick and he loves getting fucked in his ass! Fuck every stupid ass piece of shit who believes in any religion!
 

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
All you have is opinion supporting evolution, that is it.
I could cite many links to scientists who disagree, who in fact support the theory that DNA disproves Darwinism.

Here is a link to documentary with five professors/scientists who believe Darwins theory is impossible.
go to 21:59 of the video.
Professor Dawkins was asked the question "can you give an example of genetic mutation which can be seen to increase the information in a genome" he is stumped, why, because there is no example.
Well you are wrong on all points.
I'm not a bible believer, I do follow science and everything I cite, like you and those who believe in evolution, is backed by science.

To call scientists who do not agree with evolution, fringe, demonstrates your own close-mindedness.


Part One -

Okay, I just finished watching your video and I feel both dirty and embarrassed for you. The video was made in 1985 by a christian/creationist organization Answers in Genesis, and SO much has been discovered and refined over the last 30 years. Let's take a look at the four 'experts' on which your video relies -

Michael Denton - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Denton. This guy is the least embarrassing partly because he is the most educated, and partly because he is the only one of the four that isn't admittedly religious. He is certainly considered on the fringe, as he has all of the same data as all other biologists, but he does not come to the same obvious conclusions, at least when this was filmed decades ago. It is strange to witness a scientist who fooled themselves with a common logical fallacy (are you familiar with those? I'll bet not) known as The Argument from personal Incredulity which states, 'I cannot imagine how this could be true, therefore it is false'. Such an easy fallacy for a trained mind to sidestep, but he steps into it consistently throughout your video.
Since the writing of his book 30 years ago and to his credit, he has changed many of his views on evolution. From Wiki -

Denton is best known for his 1985 book Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, in the book he presented a systematic critique of neo-darwinism ranging from paleontology, fossils, homology, molecular biology, genetics and biochemistry and argued that evidence of design exists in nature. He describes himself as an evolutionist, and he has rejected biblical creationism. Because of his book he is often regarded as the person who laid the intellectual foundations for the Intelligent Design movement.[5] The book influenced both Phillip E. Johnson, the father of intelligent design, and George Gilder, co-founder of the Discovery Institute, the hub of the intelligent design movement.[6] Since writing the book Denton has changed many of his views on evolution, however he still believes that the existence of life is a matter of design.

AND
From Talk Origins on the same wiki page, which is a highly respected forum whereby scientific heavies... why am I explaining this to you? Since you follow science (yeah, right), of course you know Talk Origins -

29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: A Response to Ashby Camp's "Critique", Talk.Origins "Interestingly, it appears that Denton has finally rectified his misunderstanding about nested hierarchies and common descent, since in his latest book he unconditionally assumes the validity of the nested hierarchy, common descent, and the tree of life."

So, Denton does not even believe the majority of his own horseshit that he did on your video. Even in your video at 14:12, he admits there are two possibilities, a universe created by design (a Skyhook), and a universe that is self-organizing (a Crane). Moving on, it only gets more embarrassing from here...

Werner Gitt - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Gitt

Creationist extraordinaire, who's education isn't even biology, but engineering. Why would he be biased, right? WTF???

'Gitt was an engineering professor at the Physikalisch-Technische Bundesanstalt, Germany's national institute for natural and engineering sciences. By the 1990s he was assuming a leadership role in the German creationary movement, through the publication of several influential creationary books. He was one of the leaders of the nondenominational Wort und Wissen (Word and Knowledge) society, the largest creationary society in Germany.[1]'
 

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
Part Two -

Next...

Lee Spetner - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Spetner
Your video was quite dishonest and deceptive to list his credentials as a bio-physicist, as he is nothing of the sort -

Education
Spetner received his BS degree in mechanical engineering at Washington University in 1945[2] and his Ph.D. in physics from MIT in 1950, where his Ph.D. thesis advisors were Robert Williams and Bruno Rossi.[3]
Spetner first became interested in evolution in 1970 after moving to Israel. In Israel he indulged in searching for evidence which contradicted the modern evolutionary synthesis. Spetner was inspired by the rabbi David Luria (1798 - 1855), who calculated that according to Talmudic sources that there was 365 originally created species of beasts and 365 of birds. Spetner developed what he called his "nonrandom evolutionary hypothesis", which (in common with Christian young earth creationists) accepted microevolution (which he attributed to Lamarckian-like inheritance), but rejected macroevolution.[5]

Spetner has been described as a Jewish Creationist.[6] In 1980 at a conference for Jewish scientists, Spetner claimed the Archaeopteryx was a fraud. Spetner continued his attack on the modern evolutionary synthesis in his book Not by chance! Shattering the Modern Theory of Evolution.[7]

So, here we have a creationist who was motivated to look into evolution with the stated goal of overturning it. No bias or agenda there :roll:

Next...

Don Batten - http://creationwiki.org/Don_Batten

Dr. Donald James Batten was born and raised in a rural a part of Australia, and became a Christian at 10 years all thanks to a street preacher. He had heard a comment from a zoologist, and he realized that 'evolution is really a belief system parading around as science'. He is now a Creation evangelist working with Creation Ministries International in Australia, being a major contributor to their magazine Creation and their technical Journal of Creation.

Another creationist, what a surprise. You asked why creationists/christians would be biased in their search for the truth about evolution, so here is the answer - they start out with a belief already in place before they start their search, that is the definition of bias. This is not science. Science starts its process neutral, without bias, in order to search for the truth wherever the evidence leads, without a stake in where that goes. Atheist (those who have no belief in deities) scientists start their search with no prior belief, and do not have an agenda nor care where the data leads. They are interested only in the truth of objective reality.

Your video and posts hinge on the erroneous misinformation that no new information is added to genomes through mutation, information is only lost. This is pure bullshit -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

Mutation
Further information: Mutation


Duplication of part of a chromosome.
Mutations are changes in the DNA sequence of a cell's genome. When mutations occur, they can either have no effect, alter the product of a gene, or prevent the gene from functioning. Based on studies in the fly Drosophila melanogaster, it has been suggested that if a mutation changes a protein produced by a gene, this will probably be harmful, with about 70% of these mutations having damaging effects, and the remainder being either neutral or weakly beneficial.[70]

Mutations can involve large sections of a chromosome becoming duplicated (usually by genetic recombination), which can introduce extra copies of a gene into a genome.[71] Extra copies of genes are a major source of the raw material needed for new genes to evolve.[72] This is important because most new genes evolve within gene families from pre-existing genes that share common ancestors.[73] For example, the human eye uses four genes to make structures that sense light: three for colour vision and one for night vision; all four are descended from a single ancestral gene.[74]

New genes can be generated from an ancestral gene when a duplicate copy mutates and acquires a new function. This process is easier once a gene has been duplicated because it increases the redundancy of the system; one gene in the pair can acquire a new function while the other copy continues to perform its original function.[75][76] Other types of mutations can even generate entirely new genes from previously noncoding DNA.[77][78]

The generation of new genes can also involve small parts of several genes being duplicated, with these fragments then recombining to form new combinations with new functions.[79][80] When new genes are assembled from shuffling pre-existing parts, domains act as modules with simple independent functions, which can be mixed together to produce new combinations with new and complex functions.[81] For example, polyketide synthases are large enzymes that make antibiotics; they contain up to one hundred independent domains that each catalyse one step in the overall process, like a step in an assembly line.[82]

We can see from the above excerpt how mutation consistently introduces new info into the genome. I implore you to lose your preconceptions, bias, ignorance and agenda on this topic, and to continue (or begin) your education into evolution by natural selection. The evidence is clear and overwhelming to any competent mind free of bias. This can be accomplished by halting exposure to creationist sources and exposing oneself to the actual theory. Wiki is a great place to start. Barring this, you have at least been exposed as someone who doesn't know what they are talking about, and other members are now free to ignore or discredit your ignorant posts...
 

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
@tyler.durden

Dude is the same as the rest, nothing of substance, avoids acknowledging logical fallacies, believes in supernatural intervention..

I wasted 2 hours on the guy today, save yourself the trouble..
I hear you, I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt before dismissal. The main reason I post is not to simply debate or converse with one person, but rather for the other RIU members reading these threads. They are the ones to decide who is presenting valid information that they can verify for themselves, and who is a full-of-shit poser not interested in reality, only their own agenda. Most of the members I've seen lose debates here do not recognize nor admit the defeat (which further leads to discredit them), but it is clear to other members, and that's good enough for me ;)
 

Skuxx

Well-Known Member
This may sound dumb, but I had always at least believed evolution growing up. I learned about it in school, tv, and it made sense from what I had read and I could understand it somewhat... But one day on about 4 or 5 hits of acid I ended up in a deep trance. I actually had a powerful vision of the evolution of the entire universe on a large scale basically. I can't explain it in any way really... but it was amazing and I broke down in tears from it. Ever since then I can literally just see it. Sure it was just acid and a hallucination or whatever... But to me it was a real profound vision. I'm thankful for it.

The Bible also describes evolution if you pay attention... evolution in sort of a different way than science perhaps, but evolution nonetheless. Most creationists are bible thumpers, so they obviously can't follow their own book very well. If you don't believe me, then give it another read.

You evolve so much even in your own short lifetime, so why can people not believe that it happens on a larger scale? I mean you start off as a sperm... end up in a womb... turn into a fetus and now here you are. Is that not evoluton for fucks sake?

Just some random thoughts without getting scientific.
 

callitgood

Member
Part One -

Okay, I just finished watching your video and I feel both dirty and embarrassed for you. The video was made in 1985 by a christian/creationist organization Answers in Genesis, and SO much has been discovered and refined over the last 30 years. Let's take a look at the four 'experts' on which your video relies -

Michael Denton - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Denton. This guy is the least embarrassing partly because he is the most educated, and partly because he is the only one of the four that isn't admittedly religious. He is certainly considered on the fringe, as he has all of the same data as all other biologists, but he does not come to the same obvious conclusions, at least when this was filmed decades ago. It is strange to witness a scientist who fooled themselves with a common logical fallacy (are you familiar with those? I'll bet not) known as The Argument from personal Incredulity which states, 'I cannot imagine how this could be true, therefore it is false'. Such an easy fallacy for a trained mind to sidestep, but he steps into it consistently throughout your video.
Since the writing of his book 30 years ago and to his credit, he has changed many of his views on evolution. From Wiki -

Denton is best known for his 1985 book Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, in the book he presented a systematic critique of neo-darwinism ranging from paleontology, fossils, homology, molecular biology, genetics and biochemistry and argued that evidence of design exists in nature. He describes himself as an evolutionist, and he has rejected biblical creationism. Because of his book he is often regarded as the person who laid the intellectual foundations for the Intelligent Design movement.[5] The book influenced both Phillip E. Johnson, the father of intelligent design, and George Gilder, co-founder of the Discovery Institute, the hub of the intelligent design movement.[6] Since writing the book Denton has changed many of his views on evolution, however he still believes that the existence of life is a matter of design.

AND
From Talk Origins on the same wiki page, which is a highly respected forum whereby scientific heavies... why am I explaining this to you? Since you follow science (yeah, right), of course you know Talk Origins -

29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: A Response to Ashby Camp's "Critique", Talk.Origins "Interestingly, it appears that Denton has finally rectified his misunderstanding about nested hierarchies and common descent, since in his latest book he unconditionally assumes the validity of the nested hierarchy, common descent, and the tree of life."

So, Denton does not even believe the majority of his own horseshit that he did on your video. Even in your video at 14:12, he admits there are two possibilities, a universe created by design (a Skyhook), and a universe that is self-organizing (a Crane). Moving on, it only gets more embarrassing from here...

Werner Gitt - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Gitt

Creationist extraordinaire, who's education isn't even biology, but engineering. Why would he be biased, right? WTF???

'Gitt was an engineering professor at the Physikalisch-Technische Bundesanstalt, Germany's national institute for natural and engineering sciences. By the 1990s he was assuming a leadership role in the German creationary movement, through the publication of several influential creationary books. He was one of the leaders of the nondenominational Wort und Wissen (Word and Knowledge) society, the largest creationary society in Germany.[1]'
LMAO whatever dude. you believe whatever garbage you want, how's that.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
I hear you, I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt before dismissal. The main reason I post is not to simply debate or converse with one person, but rather for the other RIU members reading these threads. They are the ones to decide who is presenting valid information that they can verify for themselves, and who is a full-of-shit poser not interested in reality, only their own agenda. Most of the members I've seen lose debates here do not recognize nor admit the defeat (which further leads to discredit them), but it is clear to other members, and that's good enough for me ;)
A for effort

LMAO whatever dude. you believe whatever garbage you want, how's that.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Even though there are 10 more votes for 'no', I'd put money down the collective age of the 'yes' votes would still be at minimum 100 years higher

Thank you internet!
 

callitgood

Member
@tyler.durden

Dude is the same as the rest, nothing of substance, avoids acknowledging logical fallacies, believes in supernatural intervention..

I wasted 2 hours on the guy today, save yourself the trouble..
Hey bud, don't lie to try to make yourself sound better.
I told you at least two times that I do not except divine creation or evolution.
And the only one wasting time is me, listening to you regurgitate stuff you don't even understand.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Hey bud, don't lie to try to make yourself sound better.
I told you at least two times that I do not except divine creation or evolution.
And the only one wasting time is me, listening to you regurgitate stuff you don't even understand.
Says the genius who doesn't know how to spell the word 'accept' correctly..

OK short stuff, you keep on keepin' on
 
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