DIY PH Down from Sulfuric Acid. (Battery Acid)

applepoop1984

Well-Known Member
"First, It is used commercially as a PH down, it is also sold as a fish PH down. If it really did all those horrible things, then the fish would die. This negates your premise."

let me educate you; commercial ph down contains buffers. it doesnt do horrible things because it was manufactured in a lab by chemists before being mass produced, youv negated nothing. it is diluted if you could calculate the percentage and lethal dose of the substance youd have an argument but you cannot and you dont.

2nd: "blizzard of blarney comparing the lethal doses of Inhalation, mouse: LC50 = 5620 ppm/1H. Oral, rat: LD50 = 3310 mg/kg. Skin,
rabbit: LD50 = 1060 mg/kg."


this is irrelevant information your comparing the lethal oral dose of a rat! lets scale it for people since copy and pasting is all you seem to be able to do: 1kg rat lethal dose is 3310mg/kg, average human weight 68 kg or 150 lbs. 68 x 3310mg= 225000 mg orally consumed is the fatal dose for a human weighing 150lbs. really? that was your ace in the hole? id do the other calculations but i think you get the point. not to mention that was at concentration of 100% acetic acid.

now lets compare sulfuric acid which was at only 98% concentrate: Toxicological Data on Ingredients: Sulfuric acid: ORAL (LD50): Acute: 2140 mg/kg [Rat.]. VAPOR (LC50): Acute: 510 mg/m
2 hours [Rat]. 320 mg/m 2 hours [Mouse]
what this tells us is sulfuric acid at only 98% is 36% more lethal than acetic acid is at 100% concentrate.
sulfuric acid at 98% lethal dose= 2140mg/kg
acetic acid at 100% lethal dose = 3310 mg/kg

3rd "having used them both vinegar sucks, it adds things to the res that shouldnt be there" hmmm ya dont say? things like aerobic bacteria? trace minerals and nutrients?

"comparing sulfuric acid to vinegar is like comparing a RC car to a Porsche. They just aren't in the same league."

wow just wow i dont know where to start. oh wait actually i do know where to start. im going with things that dont belong in your res such as: an acid that reacts heavily with organic materials and metals as well:

Conditions of Instability:
Conditions to Avoid: Incompatible materials, excess heat, combustible material materials, organic materials, exposure to moist
air or water, oxidizers, amines, bases. Always add the acid to water, never the reverse.
Incompatibility with various substances:
Reactive with oxidizing agents, reducing agents, combustible materials, organic materials, metals, acids, alkalis, moisture.

Special Remarks on Reactivity:
Hygroscopic. Strong oxidizer. Reacts violently with water and alcohol especially when water is added to the product.
Incompatible (can react explosively or dangerously) with the following: ACETIC ACID, ACRYLIC ACID, AMMONIUM
HYDROXIDE, CRESOL, CUMENE, DICHLOROETHYL ETHER, ETHYLENE CYANOHYDRIN, ETHYLENEIMINE, NITRIC
ACID, 2-NITROPROPANE, PROPYLENE OXIDE, SULFOLANE, VINYLIDENE CHLORIDE, DIETHYLENE GLYCOL
MONOMETHYL ETHER, ETHYL ACETATE, ETHYLENE CYANOHYDRIN, ETHYLENE GLYCOL MONOETHYL ETHER
ACETATE, GLYOXAL, METHYL ETHYL KETONE, dehydrating agents, organic materials, moisture (water), Acetic anhydride,
Acetone, cyanohydrin, Acetone+nitric acid, Acetone + potassium dichromate, Acetonitrile, Acrolein, Acrylonitrile, Acrylonitrile
+water, Alcohols + hydrogen peroxide, ally compounds such as Allyl alcohol, and Allyl Chloride, 2-Aminoethanol, Ammonium
hydroxide, Ammonium triperchromate, Aniline, Bromate + metals, Bromine pentafluoride, n-Butyraldehyde, Carbides, Cesium
acetylene carbide, Chlorates, Cyclopentanone oxime, chlorinates, Chlorates + metals, Chlorine trifluoride, Chlorosulfonic
acid, 2-cyano-4-nitrobenzenediazonium hydrogen sulfate, Cuprous nitride, p-chloronitrobenzene, 1,5-Dinitronaphthlene +
sulfur, Diisobutylene, p-dimethylaminobenzaldehyde, 1,3-Diazidobenzene, Dimethylbenzylcarbinol + hydrogen peroxide,
Epichlorohydrin, Ethyl alcohol + hydrogen peroxide, Ethylene diamine, Ethylene glycol and other glycols, , Ethylenimine,
Fulminates, hydrogen peroxide, Hydrochloric acid, Hydrofluoric acid, Iodine heptafluoride, Indane + nitric acid, Iron, Isoprene,
Lithium silicide, Mercuric nitride, Mesityl oxide, Mercury nitride, Metals (powdered), Nitromethane, Nitric acid + glycerides,
p-Nitrotoluene, Pentasilver trihydroxydiaminophosphate, Perchlorates, Perchloric acid, Permanganates + benzene, 1-
Phenyl-2-methylpropyl alcohol + hydrogen peroxide, Phosphorus, Phosphorus isocyanate, Picrates, Potassium tert-butoxide,
Potassium chlorate, Potassium Permanganate and other permanganates, halogens, amines, Potassium Permanganate +
Potassium chloride, Potassium Permanganate + water, Propiolactone (beta)-, Pyridine, Rubidium aceteylene carbide, Silver
permanganate, Sodium, Sodium carbonate, sodium hydroxide, Steel, styrene monomer, toluene + nitric acid, Vinyl acetate,
Thalium (I) azidodithiocarbonate, Zinc chlorate, Zinc Iodide, azides, carbonates, cyanides, sulfides, sulfites, alkali hydrides,
carboxylic acid anhydrides, nitriles, olefinic organics, aqueous acids, cyclopentadiene, cyano-alcohols, metal acetylides,
Hydrogen gas is generated by the action of the acid on most metals (i.e. lead, copper, tin, zinc, aluminum, etc.). Concentrated
sulfuric acid oxidizes, dehydrates, or sulfonates most organic compounds.


not only that it is a known carcinogen in humans:

Chronic Effects on Humans:
CARCINOGENIC EFFECTS: Classified 1 (Proven for human.) by IARC, + (Proven.) by OSHA.


checkmate knight e7
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
1) Commercial pH-down does not contain buffers. I've seen phosphoric acid, citric acid and potassium bisulfate sold as pH-down for plants. Not one of those is a buffer. The potassium bisulfate is an anti-buffer, being away from the sulfate/bisulfate buffering point by half an equivalent of counterion.


2) Sulfuric acid is not a carcinogen except under unusual conditions. I have inhaled air containing trace aerosol acid, and let me tell you ... it's not the sort of thing you can do by accident. cn

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:Y6qQiRAnH2kJ:www.hpa.org.uk/webc/HPAwebFile/HPAweb_C/1194947358719+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShmNcx30rL4UQAwibq38_h9Vc0H-oOCsAMLYIEDXHKf1qHDGiisqj7ltCX0zD_4zsePP96Red9X2HZUbF4jiqnYf93oiQz8i3y27Hux7ur_FNPZbEHn6BPF5HxSw-OJPD0PZuCm&sig=AHIEtbREkXTf6AciEjabl8bDZLJ4ZlWMig
 

applepoop1984

Well-Known Member
2) a quote from your own source:Carcinogenicity
There is sufficient evidence that occupational exposure to strong-inorganic–acid mists
containing sulphuric acid is carcinogenic [1]. Inhalation of sulphuric acid mists may cause an
increase in upper respiratory tract cancers such as cancer of the larynx, resulting from
chronic irritant effects on this tissue.
The IARC classification as a known human carcinogen is for inorganic acid mists containing
sulphuric acid only and does not apply to sulphuric acid or sulphuric acid solutions [2].
Environmental concentrations of sulphuric acid are generally much lower than those found in
occupational settings and are unlikely to result in respiratory tract cancers [4].


and your going to expose your self to smoke from something that's been grown in a known carcinogen? id say that trumps the arrant mists.

1) your claiming citric acid is not a buffer? im starting to see how little you know about anything outside of your realm:
Simple buffering agents

Buffering agentpK[SUB]a[/SUB]useful pH range
Citric acid
3.13, 4.76, 6.402.1 - 7.4
Acetic acid
4.83.8 - 5.8
K[SUB]2[/SUB]HPO[SUB]4[/SUB],7.26.2 - 8.2
CHES9.38.3–10.3
Borate9.248.25 - 10.25

so not only are you wrong about buffering agents it seems acetic acid is a buffer in itself with the inherent ability to stabilize ph!

the list of benefits of acetic acid roll on:
aerobic bacteria killing anaerobes
aerobic bacteria making nutrients readily available for the plants
is a buffer which stabilizes the ph
keeps gnats away
kills fungus and algea
kills spider mites when foliar fed
non carcinogenic
36-38% less toxic than sulfuric acid
contains trace nutrients and minerals
creates a highly oxygenated environment
no risk of blindness or burns

and the booby prize goes to sulfuric acid:
no effect on bacteria good or bad
excess sulfur content that is not up taken by plant readily as it is not a sulfate or a sulfide
does not kill fungus or algea
is carcinogenic when inhaled especially when SMOKED
36-38% more toxic than acetic acid
risks of blindness and spatter as well as countless(almost 100) violent reactions with organic and inorganic substances
does not kill spider mites
does not keep away pests.

edit: adding 1 gal white distilled vinegar to the equation as a cheaper alternative that contains no bacteria while still possessing some of the positives of acv as well as the benefit of being cheaper

1 gal distilled white vinegar= $2.39 at 5%
1 gal dwv= $1.19 at 2.5%
1 gal dwv= $1.09 at 2.3%
 

GreenThumbSucker

Well-Known Member
2) a quote from your own source:Carcinogenicity
There is sufficient evidence that occupational exposure to strong-inorganic–acid mists
containing sulphuric acid is carcinogenic [1]. Inhalation of sulphuric acid mists may cause an
increase in upper respiratory tract cancers such as cancer of the larynx, resulting from
chronic irritant effects on this tissue.
The IARC classification as a known human carcinogen is for inorganic acid mists containing
sulphuric acid only and does not apply to sulphuric acid or sulphuric acid solutions [2].
Environmental concentrations of sulphuric acid are generally much lower than those found in
occupational settings and are unlikely to result in respiratory tract cancers [4].


and your going to expose your self to smoke from something that's been grown in a known carcinogen? id say that trumps the arrant mists.

1) your claiming citric acid is not a buffer? im starting to see how little you know about anything outside of your realm:
Simple buffering agents

Buffering agentpK[SUB]a[/SUB]useful pH range
Citric acid
3.13, 4.76, 6.402.1 - 7.4
Acetic acid
4.83.8 - 5.8
K[SUB]2[/SUB]HPO[SUB]4[/SUB],7.26.2 - 8.2
CHES9.38.3–10.3
Borate9.248.25 - 10.25

so not only are you wrong about buffering agents it seems acetic acid is a buffer in itself with the inherent ability to stabilize ph!

the list of benefits of acetic acid roll on:
aerobic bacteria killing anaerobes
aerobic bacteria making nutrients readily available for the plants
is a buffer which stabilizes the ph
keeps gnats away
kills fungus and algea
kills spider mites when foliar fed
non carcinogenic
36-38% less toxic than sulfuric acid
contains trace nutrients and minerals
creates a highly oxygenated environment
no risk of blindness or burns

and the booby prize goes to sulfuric acid:
no effect on bacteria good or bad
excess sulfur content that is not up taken by plant readily as it is not a sulfate or a sulfide
does not kill fungus or algea
is carcinogenic when inhaled especially when SMOKED
36-38% more toxic than acetic acid
risks of blindness and spatter as well as countless(almost 100) violent reactions with organic and inorganic substances
does not kill spider mites
does not keep away pests.

edit: adding 1 gal white distilled vinegar to the equation as a cheaper alternative that contains no bacteria while still possessing some of the positives of acv as well as the benefit of being cheaper

1 gal distilled white vinegar= $2.39 at 5%
1 gal dwv= $1.19 at 2.5%
1 gal dwv= $1.09 at 2.3%
This is one of the most ignorant posts I have ever read here. Blindness? Inhaling "mist?" Smoking it? "doesn't kill spider mites?" WTF? Dude, you don't spray PH down ON your plants do you? Absolutely ignorant. many commercial PH down formulas use sulferic because it does not precipitate and slime out your system. It changes form as soon as it hits your solution, you don't 'smoke' it.

Acetic acid? They use this stuff to KILL WEEDS aka plants because it dries them out and burns them. You spray this ON your plants? Have you ever actually used vinegar for PH down? My friend did for about five days once in an emergency in his hydroponic system. Big mistake. After a few days he noticed weird clay looking gunk floating around in his reservoir. Upon further investigation, he found it in his hoses and clogging everywhere throughout his system. Fortunately he caught it in time and only wrecked his water pump.

Absolutely hands down the most ignorant post I have ever read here. What did that take you a half hour to come up with? lol Jaysus.
 

mvxciter

Member
I hate bumping up old threads but I'd like to stick a nail into all the sulfuric acid haters...

General Hydroponics (the guys that make ph up/down) says...

What if I can not get any pH Down, and my system is running high?

Answer: Short-term solutions include citric acid (which degrades in solution) or sulfuric acid made for car batteries. Make sure this does not include any lead, and be very careful with this acid. Vinegar will also work, but generally, the effects are short term.
As of right now the page can be found here:
http://generalhydroponics.com/site/index.php/resources/faqs/ph_dynamics_and_adjustment/

I've tried pure citric acid, had bad results with it growing mold/algae because it's an organic compound.
I am now using sulfuric acid to replace my normal ph down in my reservoir and its been great. No mold/algae problems because it's a mineral compound.
 

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
Nice first post:) Thanks for the bump. I am unsure why people get all excited about Zombie threads. Who cares, they can just ignore them if they don't like it, right?
 

medviper

Well-Known Member
very good info as well the debate
battery electrolyte is by far my 1st choice for ph control,the most stable and longest lasting economical ph down i've ever used to date.
i only need to add it by the drops to a 30 gal res using GH flora series(G,M,B)to keep ph at a stable 5.5-5.8 for days,i usually readjust on average twice weekly using very small amounts.i also use it to adjust my plain water final flush.
 
in high school, the crazy chem teacher (kinda hot) would always say..."do as you OTTA, and add ACID to WATA" and ever since I saw her thong, that phrase will forever stick in my head :D
 

VuKooDlaK

Member
you guys are kinda insane,using sulphuric acid to lower ph,there are much easier and less eccentric ways to control ph,like buying a ph down at a petshop for couple of bucks,or using citric acid(lemon juce) plagron sels for god's sake a ph down that's just citric acid and water,you're gonna give some poor smuck an idea to mess with used car batteries,wheel of course it's gonna reduce the ph but it doesnt mean its a good idea,much less a necessary one
 

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
Sorry, but citric acid is a terrible pH down. You don't have a clue about what you're talking about.

Stick to strong acids like nitric and sulfuric acid or almost strong acids like phosphoric acid with very low pKa.

Citric acid is a weak organic acid and terrible to use as pH down.

you guys are kinda insane,using sulphuric acid to lower ph,there are much easier and less eccentric ways to control ph,like buying a ph down at a petshop for couple of bucks,or using citric acid(lemon juce) plagron sels for god's sake a ph down that's just citric acid and water,you're gonna give some poor smuck an idea to mess with used car batteries,wheel of course it's gonna reduce the ph but it doesnt mean its a good idea,much less a necessary one
 

Dirty Harry

Well-Known Member
The bottles of liquid PH- from the aquarium dept. states right on the bottle, "CAUTION: Contains sulfuric acid"

you guys are kinda insane,using sulphuric acid to lower ph,there are much easier and less eccentric ways to control ph,like buying a ph down at a petshop for couple of bucks,or using citric acid(lemon juce) plagron sels for god's sake a ph down that's just citric acid and water,you're gonna give some poor smuck an idea to mess with used car batteries,wheel of course it's gonna reduce the ph but it doesnt mean its a good idea,much less a necessary one
 

VuKooDlaK

Member
The bottles of liquid PH- from the aquarium dept. states right on the bottle, "CAUTION: Contains sulfuric acid"
sorry my ph minus does not contain sulfuric acid and is phosphate free,well use what you want,still seems as a relay eccentric idea that mainstream growers would not recommend

soil grower myself adding a buffer to soil seems as a care free way to go,i personally try to stay away from ghetto solutions in my grows

i'm just saying that i couldn't see my self in a room thinking i need a ph minus,o yes i can use sulfuric acid what a great idea.and that plagron stuf is a joke no doubt about it.
 

Dirty Harry

Well-Known Member
I assume there are different mixes of PH- in the pet stores. Some could be sulfuric acid and others not...But the fact that some do contain sulfuric acid, and fish live in the water adjusted with it just fine, kind of shows it is not as dangerous as you think. I have never seen a sulfuric acid PH- state NOT FOR SALT WATER FISH, and trust me...salt water fish, live corals, eminies and urchants are VERY expensive and sensitive to bad water. You do have the right to choose your preference, but that does not make other options wrong or dangerous.
 

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
Listen Mr. 3 posts, if you're not using either nitric acid, phosphoric acid, or sulfuric acid, you're the one using a "ghetto" solution. Those are the correct choices when picking a pH down. Nitric is better than sulfuric imo, if it's not on that list, it's a "ghetto solution"..

Believe me, you're not an expert on this matter. I recommend you spend more time listening to those with more experience and less time trying to educate us about your hunches of what is "too eccentric", whatever that even means.

sorry my ph minus does not contain sulfuric acid and is phosphate free,well use what you want,still seems as a relay eccentric idea that mainstream growers would not recommend

soil grower myself adding a buffer to soil seems as a care free way to go,i personally try to stay away from ghetto solutions in my grows

i'm just saying that i couldn't see my self in a room thinking i need a ph minus,o yes i can use sulfuric acid what a great idea.and that plagron stuf is a joke no doubt about it.
 

AlphaPhase

Well-Known Member
Hey waterdawg, how did you like the home made pH down? I'm thinking of using it to get extra Sulfur in my res. Looking for opinions
This has to be the longest running debate yet lol. But were the hell do you get molten lava and I bet its harder to handle than battery acid. I just started a hydro setup and now know I have fucked up tap water lol. In order to get PH down to 5.5 I have to add 400ml per 100L of this crap I have. Its 17% phosphorus acid and I have used about half a gallon so yes I'm headed to the auto store this week to make my own stuff. But I guess I better add slowly to res until I figure out how much is required. donnt want her to get down to 1 now do we. As for the dangers, this whole grow thing is dangerous lol. The thought of jail sends shivers down me spine!!! Not to mention a light exploding! Or a flood! Battery acid is the least of my worries. Ok thats it i'm shutten her down!!! :-(
 
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