So the nitrogen wouldn't be much of concern? What is a good mix ratio for a foliar spray?
DIY: pH Down - EASY!
- Thread starter Enigma
- Start date
applepoop1984
Well-Known Member
calcium nitrate is readily uptaken by the roots and it is very high in nitrogen i wouldnt recommend using a foliar spray at all especially during flowering. a little goes a long way with it and the ph should already be low enough when applied that it will be absorbed readily
Hmm... Very good info... Only problem is I purchased some calcium acetate before finding this thread. Will a calcium acetate be okay as a foliar spray in veg/early bloom? I imagine calcium isn't needed too often throughout a grow in a foliar - perhaps weekly up until 3rd week of bloom.
But I am more interested in your thoughts on the matter as I am intrigued by your knowledge - I'm guessing botanist?
applepoop1984
Well-Known Member
i used to cross breed roses when i was younger i was very active in the garden growing both flowers and crops. i wouldnt use calcium acetate as a foliar but it couldnt hurt i think they actually make one called foli cal at 10% concentrate at 3 fl oz per 2 gallons of water you dont want to be foliar feeding at all during bloom it creates mold problems so as soon as you go to 12/12 id stop doing that. calcium acetate does however have the benefit of being hygroscopic and acts like miracle gro moisture control beads which will help out with water/ heat stress.
I would take applepoops suggestions with a grain of salt, he certainly is not a botanist and his beliefs about growing are highly jaded by incorrect assumptions. You might want to start a new thread if you need answers to these questions.
applepoop1984
Well-Known Member
i study the the science of plants therefore i am technically a botanist. you are as well albeit a shoddy one. your beliefs about sulfuric acid are highly erroneous.
gotcha
Thanks... FoliCal seems to be a calcium nitrate based additive - I'm basing this on the nitrogen content. I will go with the Calcium acetate only because I already bought it on ebay. Calcium nitrate is much less expensive than calcium acetate - probably why it's more widely used.
But I seem to be steering this thread off topic - sorry to the starter of the thread. My original intent was suggesting calcium acetate solution for ph balancing - but that might be impractical :/
You are comparing apples to oranges. It is like saying 99% silver and 99% gold are worth the same because they are equal percentages. 5% vinegar simply does not work near the level of 5% sulfuric acid. You also do not understand the basics:
Acidity and alkalinity are measured with a logarithmic scale called pH. Here's why: a strongly acidic solution can have one hundred million million (100,000,000,000,000) times more hydrogen ions than a strongly basic solution! The flip side, of course, is that a strongly basic solution can have 100,000,000,000,000 times more hydroxide ions than a strongly acidic solution. Moreover, the hydrogen ion and hydroxide ion concentrations in everyday solutions can vary over that entire range.
In order to deal with these large numbers more easily, scientists use a logarithmic scale, the pH scale. Each one-unit change in the pH scale corresponds to a ten-fold change in hydrogen ion concentration. The pH scale ranges from 0 to 14. It's a lot easier to use a logarithmic scale instead of always having to write down all those zeros! By the way, notice how one hundred million million is a one with fourteen zeros after it? It's not coincidence, it's logarithms!
Ok, now that I have explained what PH means and highlighted a very crucial line in the paragraph I will continue by explaining why it matters.
The PH of a 5% acetic acid mixture is about 2.4 and the PH of a 1% sulfuric acid is 1. This means that a 1% solution of sulfuric acid will beat the balls off a 5% mixture of acetic acid.
Granted, I may be incorrect in explaining this next part as I haven't been to chemistry class a long time and I am going to explain it in human talk with a little generalization and rounding to make it easier.
Weak acids don't give up all their hydrogen to the water in the nutrients, where as a strong acid gives up all of them.
Acetic acid is a weak acid.
Sulfuric acid is a strong acid.
Now, when you put those all together, your math that shows acetic acid being more economical is pretty stupid. You aren't using a gallon of sulfuric acid mix vs a gallon of vinegar. Your vinegar is not as effective at 5% as sulfuric acid is at 2%. Even 1% sulfuric acid is roughly many many times stronger than your vinegar.
And while this math may not be 100% accurate, it is close enough to explain why you are a wrong.
PH of 1 is 10x's stronger than a ph of 2. And a ph of 1 vs a ph of 3 would be 100x's stronger. A ph of 2.4 would be something like 40 times weaker than a ph of 1. That means acetic acid sucks and sulfuric acid is awesome.
Why would I want to pour a gallon of smelly ass vinegar into my res a week when I can use a tiny bit of sulfuric acid. I used a gallon of sulfuric acid on a 50 gallon res for multiple grows. A gallon of acid would only last a few weeks at best and if you are doing hydroponics you would be adding a lot of things to your res for no reason.
Simply put: acetic acid is inferior. It has never been used as a PH down except by people who are absolutely forced to, while sulfuric acid has a long history of use as a ph down for plants and works great.
applepoop1984
Well-Known Member
iv laid a trap for you. the cost argument was a ruse for my plan to show you that you have no idea what you're doing.
http://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project_ideas/Chem_AcidsBasespHScale.shtml=
"Acidity and alkalinity are measured with a logarithmic scale called pH. Here's why: a strongly acidic solution can have one hundred million million (100,000,000,000,000) times more hydrogen ions than a strongly basic solution! The flip side, of course, is that a strongly basic solution can have 100,000,000,000,000 times more hydroxide ions than a strongly acidic solution. Moreover, the hydrogen ion and hydroxide ion concentrations in everyday solutions can vary over that entire range."
nice copy and paste job. you dont retain information too well but you are a Google wizard!
"In order to deal with these large numbers more easily, scientists use a logarithmic scale, the pH scale. Each one-unit change in the pH scale corresponds to a ten-fold change in hydrogen ion concentration. The pH scale ranges from 0 to 14. It's a lot easier to use a logarithmic scale instead of always having to write down all those zeros! By the way, notice how one hundred million million is a one with fourteen zeros after it? It's not coincidence, it's logarithms!"
again nice copy and paste job.
"and I am going to explain it in human talk with a little generalization and rounding to make it easier."(on your self)
and now to explain your folly. your tutorial states:
"Get a gallon of distilled water, pour out 2 cups.
Put 1 cup of battery acid in your gallon jug of water. Wait a minute or two. Put top back on. Lightly agitate to mix.
Thats it, you have just made a gallon of PH down for a maybe a dollar or so. "
this translates to a solution of 2.3% H2S04 or a ph of 0.37!!!!?
" If you have a large res you can use battery acid straight into the
remote res, you wont have to dump cups of ph down into it any
longer, as a small amount of sulfuric acid undiluted(33% is undiluted)
does the same thing."
and this is where you get really dangerous!a list of organic and inorganic materials that react VIOLENTLY with sulfuric acid:
Special Remarks on Reactivity:
Hygroscopic. Strong oxidizer. Reacts violently with water and alcohol especially when water is added to the product.
Incompatible (can react explosively or dangerously) with the following: ACETIC ACID, ACRYLIC ACID, AMMONIUM
HYDROXIDE, CRESOL, CUMENE, DICHLOROETHYL ETHER, ETHYLENE CYANOHYDRIN, ETHYLENEIMINE, NITRIC
ACID, 2-NITROPROPANE, PROPYLENE OXIDE, SULFOLANE, VINYLIDENE CHLORIDE, DIETHYLENE GLYCOL
MONOMETHYL ETHER, ETHYL ACETATE, ETHYLENE CYANOHYDRIN, ETHYLENE GLYCOL MONOETHYL ETHER
ACETATE, GLYOXAL, METHYL ETHYL KETONE, dehydrating agents, organic materials, moisture (water), Acetic anhydride,
Acetone, cyanohydrin, Acetone+nitric acid, Acetone + potassium dichromate, Acetonitrile, Acrolein, Acrylonitrile, Acrylonitrile
+water, Alcohols + hydrogen peroxide, ally compounds such as Allyl alcohol, and Allyl Chloride, 2-Aminoethanol, Ammonium
hydroxide, Ammonium triperchromate, Aniline, Bromate + metals, Bromine pentafluoride, n-Butyraldehyde, Carbides, Cesium
acetylene carbide, Chlorates, Cyclopentanone oxime, chlorinates, Chlorates + metals, Chlorine trifluoride, Chlorosulfonic
acid, 2-cyano-4-nitrobenzenediazonium hydrogen sulfate, Cuprous nitride, p-chloronitrobenzene, 1,5-Dinitronaphthlene +
p. 5
sulfur, Diisobutylene, p-dimethylaminobenzaldehyde, 1,3-Diazidobenzene, Dimethylbenzylcarbinol + hydrogen peroxide,
Epichlorohydrin, Ethyl alcohol + hydrogen peroxide, Ethylene diamine, Ethylene glycol and other glycols, , Ethylenimine,
Fulminates, hydrogen peroxide, Hydrochloric acid, Hydrofluoric acid, Iodine heptafluoride, Indane + nitric acid, Iron, Isoprene,
Lithium silicide, Mercuric nitride, Mesityl oxide, Mercury nitride, Metals (powdered), Nitromethane, Nitric acid + glycerides,
p-Nitrotoluene, Pentasilver trihydroxydiaminophosphate, Perchlorates, Perchloric acid, Permanganates + benzene, 1-
Phenyl-2-methylpropyl alcohol + hydrogen peroxide, Phosphorus, Phosphorus isocyanate, Picrates, Potassium tert-butoxide,
Potassium chlorate, Potassium Permanganate and other permanganates, halogens, amines, Potassium Permanganate +
Potassium chloride, Potassium Permanganate + water, Propiolactone (beta)-, Pyridine, Rubidium aceteylene carbide, Silver
permanganate, Sodium, Sodium carbonate, sodium hydroxide, Steel, styrene monomer, toluene + nitric acid, Vinyl acetate,
Thalium (I) azidodithiocarbonate, Zinc chlorate, Zinc Iodide, azides, carbonates, cyanides, sulfides, sulfites, alkali hydrides,
carboxylic acid anhydrides, nitriles, olefinic organics, aqueous acids, cyclopentadiene, cyano-alcohols, metal acetylides,
from msds sulfuric acid
im going to highlight a few hazards that growers will face when using this snake oil: acetic acid , acrylates this means no moisture control beads if your using soil, cresol containing pesticides, organic materials(nothing needs to be said here lol) hydrogen peroxide( so no oxygenating your res or soil) nitric acid( a by product of potassium nitrate mixed with H2S04 highly explosive) PHOSPHORUS( lol) carbonates includes potash calcium carbonate lime dolemite
Hydrogen gas is generated by the action of the acid on most metals (i.e. lead, copper, tin, zinc, aluminum, etc.). Concentrated
sulfuric acid oxidizes, dehydrates, or sulfonates most organic compounds.
Special Remarks on Corrosivity:
Non-corrosive to lead and mild steel, but dilute acid attacks most metals. Attacks many metals releasing hydrogen gas
and it gets even better:
Carcinogenicity
There is sufficient evidence that occupational exposure to strong-inorganic–acid mists
containing sulphuric acid is carcinogenic [1]. Inhalation of sulphuric acid mists may cause an
increase in upper respiratory tract cancers such as cancer of the larynx, resulting from
chronic irritant effects on this tissue.
and you mean to tell me you want to use a known carcinogen in your grows? and then your going to smoke that?
and telling noobs how to mix a solution of .37 ph!? this is a highly reactive highly caustic substance and the only benefit is price and per your quote
"Thats it, you have just made a gallon of PH down for a maybe a dollar or so. "
when 2 gallons of apple cider vinegar only costs $1.56 and has numerous advantages of which i will now list:
1 contains beneficial aerobic bacteria that break down nutrients to be made readily available
2 bacteria kill anaerobic bacteria that cause problems for your plants
3 creates an oxygenated environment for your plants
4 keeps fungus gnats away
5 is 36% less lethal than sulferic acid( sulfuric acid at 98% lethal dose= 2140mg/kg
acetic acid at 100% lethal dose = 3310 mg/kg)
6 kills algea and prevents root rot
7 is a natural buffer acting as a ph stabilizer
8 non carcinogenic
9 kills and deters spider mites when foliar sprayed
10 contains trace nutrients and minerals
11wont cause blindness or burns
12 is listed as being a 0 on the msds for reactivity whereas sulfuric acid is listed as being a 3 making it one of the least reactive substance u can use in your grow
the only advantage you have is price, and a gallon of apple cider vinegar is $1.56 and if i wanted to i could make my own for next to nothing.
your handling and calculations are all wrong this is a blarney! feces and urine cost next to nothing are you going to add that to your res too?
"it's logarithms!"
http://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project_ideas/Chem_AcidsBasespHScale.shtml=
"Acidity and alkalinity are measured with a logarithmic scale called pH. Here's why: a strongly acidic solution can have one hundred million million (100,000,000,000,000) times more hydrogen ions than a strongly basic solution! The flip side, of course, is that a strongly basic solution can have 100,000,000,000,000 times more hydroxide ions than a strongly acidic solution. Moreover, the hydrogen ion and hydroxide ion concentrations in everyday solutions can vary over that entire range."
nice copy and paste job. you dont retain information too well but you are a Google wizard!
"In order to deal with these large numbers more easily, scientists use a logarithmic scale, the pH scale. Each one-unit change in the pH scale corresponds to a ten-fold change in hydrogen ion concentration. The pH scale ranges from 0 to 14. It's a lot easier to use a logarithmic scale instead of always having to write down all those zeros! By the way, notice how one hundred million million is a one with fourteen zeros after it? It's not coincidence, it's logarithms!"
again nice copy and paste job.
"and I am going to explain it in human talk with a little generalization and rounding to make it easier."(on your self)
and now to explain your folly. your tutorial states:
"Get a gallon of distilled water, pour out 2 cups.
Put 1 cup of battery acid in your gallon jug of water. Wait a minute or two. Put top back on. Lightly agitate to mix.
Thats it, you have just made a gallon of PH down for a maybe a dollar or so. "
this translates to a solution of 2.3% H2S04 or a ph of 0.37!!!!?
" If you have a large res you can use battery acid straight into the
remote res, you wont have to dump cups of ph down into it any
longer, as a small amount of sulfuric acid undiluted(33% is undiluted)
does the same thing."
and this is where you get really dangerous!a list of organic and inorganic materials that react VIOLENTLY with sulfuric acid:
Special Remarks on Reactivity:
Hygroscopic. Strong oxidizer. Reacts violently with water and alcohol especially when water is added to the product.
Incompatible (can react explosively or dangerously) with the following: ACETIC ACID, ACRYLIC ACID, AMMONIUM
HYDROXIDE, CRESOL, CUMENE, DICHLOROETHYL ETHER, ETHYLENE CYANOHYDRIN, ETHYLENEIMINE, NITRIC
ACID, 2-NITROPROPANE, PROPYLENE OXIDE, SULFOLANE, VINYLIDENE CHLORIDE, DIETHYLENE GLYCOL
MONOMETHYL ETHER, ETHYL ACETATE, ETHYLENE CYANOHYDRIN, ETHYLENE GLYCOL MONOETHYL ETHER
ACETATE, GLYOXAL, METHYL ETHYL KETONE, dehydrating agents, organic materials, moisture (water), Acetic anhydride,
Acetone, cyanohydrin, Acetone+nitric acid, Acetone + potassium dichromate, Acetonitrile, Acrolein, Acrylonitrile, Acrylonitrile
+water, Alcohols + hydrogen peroxide, ally compounds such as Allyl alcohol, and Allyl Chloride, 2-Aminoethanol, Ammonium
hydroxide, Ammonium triperchromate, Aniline, Bromate + metals, Bromine pentafluoride, n-Butyraldehyde, Carbides, Cesium
acetylene carbide, Chlorates, Cyclopentanone oxime, chlorinates, Chlorates + metals, Chlorine trifluoride, Chlorosulfonic
acid, 2-cyano-4-nitrobenzenediazonium hydrogen sulfate, Cuprous nitride, p-chloronitrobenzene, 1,5-Dinitronaphthlene +
p. 5
sulfur, Diisobutylene, p-dimethylaminobenzaldehyde, 1,3-Diazidobenzene, Dimethylbenzylcarbinol + hydrogen peroxide,
Epichlorohydrin, Ethyl alcohol + hydrogen peroxide, Ethylene diamine, Ethylene glycol and other glycols, , Ethylenimine,
Fulminates, hydrogen peroxide, Hydrochloric acid, Hydrofluoric acid, Iodine heptafluoride, Indane + nitric acid, Iron, Isoprene,
Lithium silicide, Mercuric nitride, Mesityl oxide, Mercury nitride, Metals (powdered), Nitromethane, Nitric acid + glycerides,
p-Nitrotoluene, Pentasilver trihydroxydiaminophosphate, Perchlorates, Perchloric acid, Permanganates + benzene, 1-
Phenyl-2-methylpropyl alcohol + hydrogen peroxide, Phosphorus, Phosphorus isocyanate, Picrates, Potassium tert-butoxide,
Potassium chlorate, Potassium Permanganate and other permanganates, halogens, amines, Potassium Permanganate +
Potassium chloride, Potassium Permanganate + water, Propiolactone (beta)-, Pyridine, Rubidium aceteylene carbide, Silver
permanganate, Sodium, Sodium carbonate, sodium hydroxide, Steel, styrene monomer, toluene + nitric acid, Vinyl acetate,
Thalium (I) azidodithiocarbonate, Zinc chlorate, Zinc Iodide, azides, carbonates, cyanides, sulfides, sulfites, alkali hydrides,
carboxylic acid anhydrides, nitriles, olefinic organics, aqueous acids, cyclopentadiene, cyano-alcohols, metal acetylides,
from msds sulfuric acid
im going to highlight a few hazards that growers will face when using this snake oil: acetic acid , acrylates this means no moisture control beads if your using soil, cresol containing pesticides, organic materials(nothing needs to be said here lol) hydrogen peroxide( so no oxygenating your res or soil) nitric acid( a by product of potassium nitrate mixed with H2S04 highly explosive) PHOSPHORUS( lol) carbonates includes potash calcium carbonate lime dolemite
Hydrogen gas is generated by the action of the acid on most metals (i.e. lead, copper, tin, zinc, aluminum, etc.). Concentrated
sulfuric acid oxidizes, dehydrates, or sulfonates most organic compounds.
Special Remarks on Corrosivity:
Non-corrosive to lead and mild steel, but dilute acid attacks most metals. Attacks many metals releasing hydrogen gas
and it gets even better:
Carcinogenicity
There is sufficient evidence that occupational exposure to strong-inorganic–acid mists
containing sulphuric acid is carcinogenic [1]. Inhalation of sulphuric acid mists may cause an
increase in upper respiratory tract cancers such as cancer of the larynx, resulting from
chronic irritant effects on this tissue.
and you mean to tell me you want to use a known carcinogen in your grows? and then your going to smoke that?
and telling noobs how to mix a solution of .37 ph!? this is a highly reactive highly caustic substance and the only benefit is price and per your quote
"Thats it, you have just made a gallon of PH down for a maybe a dollar or so. "
when 2 gallons of apple cider vinegar only costs $1.56 and has numerous advantages of which i will now list:
1 contains beneficial aerobic bacteria that break down nutrients to be made readily available
2 bacteria kill anaerobic bacteria that cause problems for your plants
3 creates an oxygenated environment for your plants
4 keeps fungus gnats away
5 is 36% less lethal than sulferic acid( sulfuric acid at 98% lethal dose= 2140mg/kg
acetic acid at 100% lethal dose = 3310 mg/kg)
6 kills algea and prevents root rot
7 is a natural buffer acting as a ph stabilizer
8 non carcinogenic
9 kills and deters spider mites when foliar sprayed
10 contains trace nutrients and minerals
11wont cause blindness or burns
12 is listed as being a 0 on the msds for reactivity whereas sulfuric acid is listed as being a 3 making it one of the least reactive substance u can use in your grow
the only advantage you have is price, and a gallon of apple cider vinegar is $1.56 and if i wanted to i could make my own for next to nothing.
your handling and calculations are all wrong this is a blarney! feces and urine cost next to nothing are you going to add that to your res too?
"it's logarithms!"
applepoop1984
Well-Known Member
new thread coming soon make your own apple cider vinegar at 0.02 cents per gallon. a short synopsis =
2 20 gallon garbage cans
20 apples at $5.93 with high sugar content gala are good and cheap i used them for the pricing
1 oz bragg organic apple cider vinegar $0.15
air stone air pump
cheese cloth
remove and save apple cores , cut rest of apples into tiniest pieces add to 20 gallon can along with 1 oz shaken up braggs organic acv
ad 19 gallons water wrap airstone in cheese cloth attach to pump insert in can and leave on.cover top of can with cheese cloth to keep bugs out but allow air in(even though the air pump does just that) wait 3 weeks keep can in temperature not to exceed 80 degrees f and nto below 60 degrees f. ready for use after 4 weeks. remove apples and discard, mix thoroughly and move 12 gallons to the second can and close lid. add 5-8 apples to 1st can chopped and cored( add the cores as well and chop them) repeat process. acv stored in second can needs to be ph'd to 2.4 with a test strip and diluted to 2.77 ph. total cost= $6.08 for 95gallons = $0.06 per gallon for a dilution of 1% and a ph of 2.77. for the initial start up and the maintenance apples will cost $2.32 per 19 gallons diluted to 1% at 2.77 ph = $0.02 per gallon
an alternative would be to use hard cider instead of the bragg but apples are cheaper and bragg onyl needs to be used during your startup as youl be using 1/3 of the symbiotic yeast and bacteria for your perpetual acv setup.
2 20 gallon garbage cans
20 apples at $5.93 with high sugar content gala are good and cheap i used them for the pricing
1 oz bragg organic apple cider vinegar $0.15
air stone air pump
cheese cloth
remove and save apple cores , cut rest of apples into tiniest pieces add to 20 gallon can along with 1 oz shaken up braggs organic acv
ad 19 gallons water wrap airstone in cheese cloth attach to pump insert in can and leave on.cover top of can with cheese cloth to keep bugs out but allow air in(even though the air pump does just that) wait 3 weeks keep can in temperature not to exceed 80 degrees f and nto below 60 degrees f. ready for use after 4 weeks. remove apples and discard, mix thoroughly and move 12 gallons to the second can and close lid. add 5-8 apples to 1st can chopped and cored( add the cores as well and chop them) repeat process. acv stored in second can needs to be ph'd to 2.4 with a test strip and diluted to 2.77 ph. total cost= $6.08 for 95gallons = $0.06 per gallon for a dilution of 1% and a ph of 2.77. for the initial start up and the maintenance apples will cost $2.32 per 19 gallons diluted to 1% at 2.77 ph = $0.02 per gallon
an alternative would be to use hard cider instead of the bragg but apples are cheaper and bragg onyl needs to be used during your startup as youl be using 1/3 of the symbiotic yeast and bacteria for your perpetual acv setup.
20 LBs of apples isn't going to get you 20 gallons of 5% vinegar. It takes about 2 bushels to make 5 gallons of cider - you are talking hundreds of pounds of apples for 20 gallons of cider. Why do you keep posting things that are retarded? I just bottled a 5 gallon batch of cider last night that is 10% alcohol and while I could prompt it into being vinegar, the cost is enormous. Also, cutting the apples up isn't going to work. You would have to press them. You probably wouldn't get 1% acetic acid from that without distilling it down.
Apple juice is cheaper than apples, and would still run you $4 a gallon even if you made a wish for a useful random yeast and random bacteria to convert the alcohol once fermentation is completed. Your directions are just as likely to result in a garbage can full of vomit than anything useful. Is your time worth anything? Not to mention you completely ignored sanitation.
applepoop1984
Well-Known Member
that is not true. your spewing blarney again to be a contrarian. if they are chopped fine enough no need to press them. apple cider vinegar is easier than a ronco rotisserie set it and forget it. 20 apples and 1-0z braggs will get you 19 gallons in 3-4 weeks and the ph will be in the 2.4 range you are grasping at straws. 2 bushels to make 5 gallons of cider vinegar lol. you are a liar and a buffoon and. " I just bottled a 5 gallon batch of cider last night that is 10% alcohol and while I could prompt it into being vinegar, the cost is enormous." yeah sure you did you are so full of crap. im guessing your next move would be posting a picture of 30 brown bottles with an unknown liquid in them to really show me whats what. the cost is enormous? what are you talking about you just let it sit for a few weeks lol. it generally only takes 3-5 apples per gallon with 1 oz of braggs organic acv and a 1/4 cup of sugar it speeds up the process. it takes 10 lbs of apples per gallon of cider not apple cider vinegar huge difference. all that is required is enough sugar and aceto bacteria and sanitation comes from the ph. for the end product the only maintenance is skimming the top once after about 2 weeks. look at every tutorial for acv. do you know why they dont mention sanitation? its because fruit flies carry aceto bacteria to the mixture and the acidity from the vinegar makes it sanitary. apple juice is nto cheaper than apples i can get a lb of apples for 88 cents where can i find a gallon of apple juice for 88 cents? even cheaper is having a friend with an apple tree and using his
I proved my point. Your list of 10 things is mostly incorrect. I never said I wrote the first part, I did copy and paste it. This isn't a science paper for high school, those links proved my point about your nonsensical argument.
A gallon of apple cider vinegar at Wal-Mart is $3.83 btw. Where are you getting it for 1.56?
Attachments
Since it is blatantly obvious to anyone who has even an inkling of a clue about making vinegar that you have about as much understanding of it as a dog does of driving a car, I don't need to defend myself. However, to save anyone who is ignorant of the process and growing from believing the enormous pile of bullshit that you have laid down, I must reject your premise. Of the two of us, I have actually made vinegar. It was malt vinegar, because I was trying to recreate the flavor of a homemade malt vinegar I had in Ireland on one of the islands that dot the west coast. Being a brewer, this wasn't a big deal since I had everything on hand. No one who has any fucking clue would suggest 20 lbs of apples would make 20 gallons of cider or cider vinegar.
1) Cutting up apples would never let all the sugar be available. Pureeing MAYBE. Juicing, OK.
2) While I believe it is possible to go straight from sugar to vinegar, I don't think it works like you were saying. Please provide some evidence.
3) Why would you want rotten fruit and flies in your grow area? Why not throw mites in your grow too? I believe you can buy caterpillars online.
4) There are many bacteria that love oxygen. You are just as likely to make something fucked up and nasty that kills your plants as you are to make vinegar without actually using a acetobacter
5) Suck my balls.
6) I actually kissed the Blarney Stone.
7) Since converting alcohol to acetic acid is the basis for making vinegar, you have to have alcohol % or the potential before you make the vinegar. To make a decent 5 gallon batch of cider it takes about 70-85 LBs of apples and that isn't super strong. Adding sugar would help. You would need a lot of sugar in your 20 gallon garbage can to get even close to 5%. I guess I could go into a discussion about OG and figuring out potential alcohol but since you have no clue it would be a giant waste of time.
Sulfuric acid > Acetic acid9) Why are you arguing for ACV vs distilled vinegar - distilled vinegar is cheaper and isn't full of shit you don't want in your res.
10) Suck my balls.
It takes more than a LB of apples to make a gallon of apple juice or apple cider vinegar. Unfortunately, the mist from the vinegar must of given you brain cancer and now you can't use simple logic.
applepoop1984
Well-Known Member
1. people have been using apple cores as well as whole apples to make vinegar for eons.
2. sugar is added as well as 1 0z of mixed organic apple cider vinegar containing aceto bacter which decreases the time to ferment and convert to vinegar
3. rotten fruit is removed, the top of the container is covered with cheese cloth on the 1st bucket the second bucket has a closed lid which doesnt kill the acetobacter but makes them in active temporarily. fruit flies carry aceto bacter this is how vinegar was first made. the finished product is detestable to flies and insects of all types acting as a natural pesticide which insects are unable to develop a resistance to.
4. but i am using aceto bacter. the use of 1 oz organic apple cider guarantees it will turn into vinegar after it ferments
5. so far your arguments have amounted to 80% blarney, 20% hearsay
6. 83% blarney
7. it takes 7-8 days before it starts fermenting. adding the tonnes of sugar you recommend would be useless and kill the bacteria. 1/4 cup per batch is all thats needed
8. sulfuric acid> acetic acid at reacting with all metals to form hydrogen gas (hindenburg) , causing blindness, being a known carcinogen(msds sulfuric acid) and reacting violently with all organic matter as well as moisture control beads, potassium nitrate(one of the most common nutrients) hydrogen peroxide(no oxygenating your soil/ res) nitric acid(the by product of the reaction between potassium nitrate and sulfuric acid, even at a form diluted below 1%) and carbonates( potash, dolemite etc)
9. why do you talk like a sailor? are you that upset that your not right? do your kiss your mother with that mouth
10. your little outline consisted of 90% blarney 10% hearsay.
im not debating what kind of juice can be made from a pound of apples. im not talking about, juice cider or in your case apple schnapps. im using 55 grams of sugar and alone not to mention the 17 or so grams that come from one apple.the bacteria arent going to run out of sugar. if they do i add 1/4 cup more and ph a week later till i get it to 2.4
unfortunately the asbestos in your reservoir has found its way into your lungs and only lies and hot hair are able to escape. i get it from the same place i get my apples for 88-81 cents/pound
ps your not the only one who home brews
2. sugar is added as well as 1 0z of mixed organic apple cider vinegar containing aceto bacter which decreases the time to ferment and convert to vinegar
3. rotten fruit is removed, the top of the container is covered with cheese cloth on the 1st bucket the second bucket has a closed lid which doesnt kill the acetobacter but makes them in active temporarily. fruit flies carry aceto bacter this is how vinegar was first made. the finished product is detestable to flies and insects of all types acting as a natural pesticide which insects are unable to develop a resistance to.
4. but i am using aceto bacter. the use of 1 oz organic apple cider guarantees it will turn into vinegar after it ferments
5. so far your arguments have amounted to 80% blarney, 20% hearsay
6. 83% blarney
7. it takes 7-8 days before it starts fermenting. adding the tonnes of sugar you recommend would be useless and kill the bacteria. 1/4 cup per batch is all thats needed
8. sulfuric acid> acetic acid at reacting with all metals to form hydrogen gas (hindenburg) , causing blindness, being a known carcinogen(msds sulfuric acid) and reacting violently with all organic matter as well as moisture control beads, potassium nitrate(one of the most common nutrients) hydrogen peroxide(no oxygenating your soil/ res) nitric acid(the by product of the reaction between potassium nitrate and sulfuric acid, even at a form diluted below 1%) and carbonates( potash, dolemite etc)
9. why do you talk like a sailor? are you that upset that your not right? do your kiss your mother with that mouth
10. your little outline consisted of 90% blarney 10% hearsay.
im not debating what kind of juice can be made from a pound of apples. im not talking about, juice cider or in your case apple schnapps. im using 55 grams of sugar and alone not to mention the 17 or so grams that come from one apple.the bacteria arent going to run out of sugar. if they do i add 1/4 cup more and ph a week later till i get it to 2.4
unfortunately the asbestos in your reservoir has found its way into your lungs and only lies and hot hair are able to escape. i get it from the same place i get my apples for 88-81 cents/pound
ps your not the only one who home brews
1) Vinegar is made from sugar/alcohol. With an original gravity between 1.040 and 1.050 and a full fermentation you will get 5% alcohol which can then be converted into 5% vinegar.
2) If you knew how to brew, you would not suggest that it takes 7 days to start fermenting. My apple cider was bottled on the 7th day after pitching the yeast @ 1.007 gravity to retain a slight bit of sweetness.
3) Acetobacter doesn't speed fermentation. Yeast ferments, acetobacter turns alcohol into acetic acid in the presence of an oxygen rich environment. There are two different things.
4) Sugar doesn't kill bacteria. The OG of apple juice is between the desired 1.040 to 1.050 generally. It takes 13-15lbs of apple to make a gallon of Juice. A gallon of juice weighs between 8 and 9 lbs depending on the process and the apples in question. There isn't some magical process that can make 20 gallons of juice(160-180lb of juice) out of 20lbs of apples. So you are using a tremendous amount of water and have to add about a LB of sugar per gallon to get the water to the 5% range just to have enough sugar to feed the yeast. This means you are using something like 20lbs of sugar and 20 lbs of apples in a 20 gallons batch to get into the 5% range. I used a couple pounds of brown sugar in that 5 gallon batch as well as some honey to get the OG up to the level I was looking for and I started with pure apple juice/cider that had a OG that would make it 5% or so to start.
5) Sugar kills bacteria in what planet?
6) Do you even grow?
7) Let me guess, someone got a mr beer for Christmas? lol.
applepoop1984
Well-Known Member
1 this is false with a gravity of 1.04 you will get 5.5% alcohol and at 1.05 you will get 6.9%
2 it takes 3-4 weeks for full fermentation of acv and 7-8 days for fermentation to begin. you get all your information from forums this is part of your problem, the other of course being the petulant arrogance of a 10 year old trapped in the body of someone in their mid 40's.
3 "There are two different things."
yes they are but i said them in the same sentence. i stated "decreases the time to ferment and convert to vinegar" implyingi knew both processes were separate not to mention i stated ferment 1st and conversion 2nd in the order that they happen. it just so happens that the organic apple cider vinegar i used in the above recipe contains both YEAST and ACETOBACTER OOOOOOHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
4 i feel sorry for you all you can make is low gravity "hard cider" lol. if sugar cant kill bacteria can you tell me why the hell sugar doesnt rot? you absolute peon. iv done experiments with high concentrations of sugar in microbiology class the bacteria stay the H away from it lol. not too mention too much sugar slows down the fermenting process and kills yeast. probably why you only managed 5%
5 earth!
6 have you ever had a girlfriend?
7 no someone got a label maker
ps honey slows down the fermenting process , all your fruits, saccharins, saccharides, phenylalanine , tabs, shastas, and glucose molecules formed a symbiosis to give you the weak girly cider
2 it takes 3-4 weeks for full fermentation of acv and 7-8 days for fermentation to begin. you get all your information from forums this is part of your problem, the other of course being the petulant arrogance of a 10 year old trapped in the body of someone in their mid 40's.
3 "There are two different things."
yes they are but i said them in the same sentence. i stated "decreases the time to ferment and convert to vinegar" implyingi knew both processes were separate not to mention i stated ferment 1st and conversion 2nd in the order that they happen. it just so happens that the organic apple cider vinegar i used in the above recipe contains both YEAST and ACETOBACTER OOOOOOHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
4 i feel sorry for you all you can make is low gravity "hard cider" lol. if sugar cant kill bacteria can you tell me why the hell sugar doesnt rot? you absolute peon. iv done experiments with high concentrations of sugar in microbiology class the bacteria stay the H away from it lol. not too mention too much sugar slows down the fermenting process and kills yeast. probably why you only managed 5%
5 earth!
6 have you ever had a girlfriend?
7 no someone got a label maker
ps honey slows down the fermenting process , all your fruits, saccharins, saccharides, phenylalanine , tabs, shastas, and glucose molecules formed a symbiosis to give you the weak girly cider
Can neither of you see you're just engaged in a pissing match? Or are you too busy wiping off your shoes and pissing back?
It's obvious this has become personal to both of you, so neither is ever going to concede. Agree to disagree and move on please.
This thread has become useless IMHO. Unsubscribed.
It's obvious this has become personal to both of you, so neither is ever going to concede. Agree to disagree and move on please.
This thread has become useless IMHO. Unsubscribed.