Defoliation - removing fan leaves for higher yield
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Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
Amen.
BTW, I thought you were through trying to correct the wrongs of faux growing techniques.
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
I'm not a believer in yanking tomato "suckers" aka node produced secondary branches like grandpappy said you should do. A healthy leaf is a productive leaf for the production of plant material which includes the root system and the fruit. It's just plain common sense really.
I do drop young grapes and peaches so that the remaining ones are bigger and/or have better flavor, color, etc.
i8urbabi
Well-Known Member
Saying god created all plants and animals, god never messed up. Everything nature does, is done with perfection. The plant grows how it does for a reason. We may never know, but in nature the marijuana plant will grow perfect as is. Cutting the leaves away deprives it of something. Leave the plant be and respect it. Look outside of your home, everything you see from trees to grass to bugs is all growing how its meant to and is prolly better than we can ever make it. Cant beat the sun and let nature run its course and stop choppin your plants up. im sure you could get bigger buds cutting away stuff at the bottom. But im willing to bet that the hypothesis of leaving it alone will make to more potent bud is correct. More leaves, more energy can be absorbed into the plant, hands down.
epicseeds
Active Member
It isn't uprising a majority of you all attack something that so strongly goes against your beliefs, something that has been pounded into your brain since you first read how to grow marijuana. I guarantee 100% of you hating on this technique HAVE NOT tried this, or if you have you did not do it correctly. It baffles me how people will swear up and down that this does not work when you haven't even tried.
I was just like a majority of you. When I saw this thread on ICMAG I told myself "this is retarded" but I did a side by side test. And guess what out of 4 plants, the 2 that were defoliated averaged +20 grams than the non defoliated.
I don't see how this can be refuted. I urge you people to just try it on ONE plant. What's the harm in doing it to one plant - its not going to kill it, and the worst that could happen is you could lose some weight but it WONT happen i promise you.
Uncle Ben - earlier in this thread, and in other threads you say many things to the effect of "most of what is popular belief on forums or in growing culture in general is false." You made many valid points to this truth - especially when it comes to fancy nutes and such. Why can't the theory that defoliation will ruin your plant and not product heavier fruits be false too?
I can't begin to tell you why this works.... but I do know that when you practice this in veg an exponential amount of bud sites pop up after each defoliation. YOU MUST DO THIS DURING VEG...DO NOT DO THIS DURING FLOWERING ONLY. The main reason why this works is because all the lower branches will get much more light and grow up to the level of your main colas. I think this is the main reason I got more weight, because I had way more bud sites than the 2 that were not defoliated.
I will test out my next theory and I think I am on to something. I think if you were to defoliate during veg ONLY and let all of those bud sites pop up because of the leaf removal, then NOT DEFOLIATE DURING FLOWER I will get even better results. This will allow the fan leaves to continue to do their thing during flower when they apparently are needed the most.
I urge you people to give this a shot with just one measly plant. We humans think we know everything. The fact is we don't - and if you were to look at history you will see how strongly we held onto beliefs in the past and then eventually realized just how wrong we were. Why can't this be applied here? The truth is we really don't know much about the marijuana plant in terms of science. Laws and regulations has limited any real scientific studies....the only real scientific study on marijuana to date I have found is on the HEMP plant back in the 40s. And funny enough they found that cannabis grows best with the 9-3-6 NPK ratio which is exactly what Uncle Ben has advocated for so long. However this was done on HEMP plants which is grown for their stalk and not flowers...so this ratio is best for VEG and not necessarily the bloom stage.
Sorry for the ramble but it kind of irritates me when people will swear to something that they have never tried. Just give it a shot guys!
I was just like a majority of you. When I saw this thread on ICMAG I told myself "this is retarded" but I did a side by side test. And guess what out of 4 plants, the 2 that were defoliated averaged +20 grams than the non defoliated.
I don't see how this can be refuted. I urge you people to just try it on ONE plant. What's the harm in doing it to one plant - its not going to kill it, and the worst that could happen is you could lose some weight but it WONT happen i promise you.
Uncle Ben - earlier in this thread, and in other threads you say many things to the effect of "most of what is popular belief on forums or in growing culture in general is false." You made many valid points to this truth - especially when it comes to fancy nutes and such. Why can't the theory that defoliation will ruin your plant and not product heavier fruits be false too?
I can't begin to tell you why this works.... but I do know that when you practice this in veg an exponential amount of bud sites pop up after each defoliation. YOU MUST DO THIS DURING VEG...DO NOT DO THIS DURING FLOWERING ONLY. The main reason why this works is because all the lower branches will get much more light and grow up to the level of your main colas. I think this is the main reason I got more weight, because I had way more bud sites than the 2 that were not defoliated.
I will test out my next theory and I think I am on to something. I think if you were to defoliate during veg ONLY and let all of those bud sites pop up because of the leaf removal, then NOT DEFOLIATE DURING FLOWER I will get even better results. This will allow the fan leaves to continue to do their thing during flower when they apparently are needed the most.
I urge you people to give this a shot with just one measly plant. We humans think we know everything. The fact is we don't - and if you were to look at history you will see how strongly we held onto beliefs in the past and then eventually realized just how wrong we were. Why can't this be applied here? The truth is we really don't know much about the marijuana plant in terms of science. Laws and regulations has limited any real scientific studies....the only real scientific study on marijuana to date I have found is on the HEMP plant back in the 40s. And funny enough they found that cannabis grows best with the 9-3-6 NPK ratio which is exactly what Uncle Ben has advocated for so long. However this was done on HEMP plants which is grown for their stalk and not flowers...so this ratio is best for VEG and not necessarily the bloom stage.
Sorry for the ramble but it kind of irritates me when people will swear to something that they have never tried. Just give it a shot guys!
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
Please see the other thread on this tired old theory that raises its ugly head with every crop of noobs in 20 thousand other cannabis forums hehe. I don't deal in theories, I deal ONLY with botany. It's real ya know.
Like I said in the other thread, I aint about to yank leaves off a hibicus, olive, tomato, pecan, peach, grapevine or any other flowering or fruiting plant material. I've been growing about every kind of plant material you can think of for over 40 years and it's all about the most root and foliage mass you can muster up and retain in a healthy condition until harvest that drives yields. Case in point, I also graft citrus and after babying a couple of potted citrus for 2 years I'm finally going to have a decent crop, IF, they don't stop losing their frickin' leaves (which is driving flower and fruit drop).cosmic karma, luck, seeing what ya wanna see?
but, but.....the other guy in the other thread said you must do this DURING FLOWERING ONLY, starting at the 21st day!!!!!!! I'm confused.
https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/367996-pruning-when-do-you-take-4.html
Happy yanking,
Unkie Bennie
.
Snow Crash
Well-Known Member
As someone who is defoliating several plants right now as an experiment I can clearly see the results.
Large fan leaves are replaced by smaller fan leaves from the lower branches. As fan leaves are removed the plant responds by increasing the size of the leaves on the lower branches. The increase in direct light further develops these branches. Rather than removing lower growth sites, you remove fan leaves, it makes PERFECT sense for those with a brain to use. I'm growing bud sites in veg so that I can grow lots of big nugs in flowering. Seems like too many people are stuck in the mentality that we are growing lettuce. Removing the bud sites to keep fan leaves we'll trim off at harvest and toss anyway... Doesn't make sense like this method does.
By keeping the lower bud sites, developing them early on, I get thicker stems, a fuller canopy, more places to grow nugs, and when the nugs to grow the plant can grow them bigger. Not because the buds are getting light but rather because time and energy were spent early on developing a strong vascular system in those lower branches to support these nugs.
Seems like you guys are growing some skinny ass plants if you think the loss of a couple fan leaves from the main stalk is going to ruin the harvest. I know that I remove one leaf only to find four more beneath it that weren't getting the light they needed. The large fan leaf required more energy to maintain itself; transpiration and the transportation of water and energy from the roots to the leaf. After taking the single large leaf the smaller four leaves, which are more efficient energy producers, will replace the lost leaf mass in under 48 hours by increasing their own sizes. It is really quite amazing how Marijuana responds with this method. I've grown enough of these plants without defoliation to see the difference without a side-by-side comparison.
Besides, can you guys really not afford to just try this out on one plant in your own garden before trying to beat it down? A couple CFL bulbs or a spare corner of the grow room is all you need. Worst case scenario for you people is us being right, which is probably why you're resisting it.
Now, for those that are all, meh I don't trim my other plants... You've probably never grown Roses or Apples before. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=7&sqi=2&ved=0CC0QFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fscholar.lib.vt.edu%2Ftheses%2Favailable%2Fetd-11252002-110834%2Funrestricted%2FETD-2.pdf&rct=j&q=defoliating%20for%20bud&ei=pruoTJO3L4KesQOT5piHDQ&usg=AFQjCNECBjsTWy5b2egDrCi-9mTImqj94g Scroll down to page 5. This is a university study showing the effects of gradual defoliation on fruit production. Your guy's theory against this method is most clearly unfounded, while defoliation itself is still holding ground against the naysayers.
Here's a community of people who have been working this method on a much larger scale. There is a tremendous amount of evidence FOR defoliation here: http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=174163
@UncleBen: Defoliation is a process best suited to vegetative life, when the plant is actively creating vegetation (leaf mass). During this time a lost leaf is replaced/compensated for quickly by the rest of the plant. Removing a fan leaf after the 2nd week of flowering will not allow the plant to replace this lost mass as it is now focused on producing flowers rather than foliage. During the 2nd to 8th week of flowering I believe that defoliation should be discontinued. During the final weeks of bloom there is some evidence for the removal of most leaves that have long stems to induce a beneficial stress reaction in the plant. I haven't seen this first hand but think that there is ample evidence to encourage further testing.
Large fan leaves are replaced by smaller fan leaves from the lower branches. As fan leaves are removed the plant responds by increasing the size of the leaves on the lower branches. The increase in direct light further develops these branches. Rather than removing lower growth sites, you remove fan leaves, it makes PERFECT sense for those with a brain to use. I'm growing bud sites in veg so that I can grow lots of big nugs in flowering. Seems like too many people are stuck in the mentality that we are growing lettuce. Removing the bud sites to keep fan leaves we'll trim off at harvest and toss anyway... Doesn't make sense like this method does.
By keeping the lower bud sites, developing them early on, I get thicker stems, a fuller canopy, more places to grow nugs, and when the nugs to grow the plant can grow them bigger. Not because the buds are getting light but rather because time and energy were spent early on developing a strong vascular system in those lower branches to support these nugs.
Seems like you guys are growing some skinny ass plants if you think the loss of a couple fan leaves from the main stalk is going to ruin the harvest. I know that I remove one leaf only to find four more beneath it that weren't getting the light they needed. The large fan leaf required more energy to maintain itself; transpiration and the transportation of water and energy from the roots to the leaf. After taking the single large leaf the smaller four leaves, which are more efficient energy producers, will replace the lost leaf mass in under 48 hours by increasing their own sizes. It is really quite amazing how Marijuana responds with this method. I've grown enough of these plants without defoliation to see the difference without a side-by-side comparison.
Besides, can you guys really not afford to just try this out on one plant in your own garden before trying to beat it down? A couple CFL bulbs or a spare corner of the grow room is all you need. Worst case scenario for you people is us being right, which is probably why you're resisting it.
Now, for those that are all, meh I don't trim my other plants... You've probably never grown Roses or Apples before. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=7&sqi=2&ved=0CC0QFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fscholar.lib.vt.edu%2Ftheses%2Favailable%2Fetd-11252002-110834%2Funrestricted%2FETD-2.pdf&rct=j&q=defoliating%20for%20bud&ei=pruoTJO3L4KesQOT5piHDQ&usg=AFQjCNECBjsTWy5b2egDrCi-9mTImqj94g Scroll down to page 5. This is a university study showing the effects of gradual defoliation on fruit production. Your guy's theory against this method is most clearly unfounded, while defoliation itself is still holding ground against the naysayers.
Here's a community of people who have been working this method on a much larger scale. There is a tremendous amount of evidence FOR defoliation here: http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=174163
@UncleBen: Defoliation is a process best suited to vegetative life, when the plant is actively creating vegetation (leaf mass). During this time a lost leaf is replaced/compensated for quickly by the rest of the plant. Removing a fan leaf after the 2nd week of flowering will not allow the plant to replace this lost mass as it is now focused on producing flowers rather than foliage. During the 2nd to 8th week of flowering I believe that defoliation should be discontinued. During the final weeks of bloom there is some evidence for the removal of most leaves that have long stems to induce a beneficial stress reaction in the plant. I haven't seen this first hand but think that there is ample evidence to encourage further testing.
just my opinion here.....
i think that there are ready replacements under fan leaves as a natural precaution to things that may happen in a natural setting I.E. outdoors. such as a freakin pine cone falling and knocking off a leaf or two. things like this happen in the great outdoors and its like a back up plan mother nature has given the plant and the plant will recover very quickly. . this IMO does not suggest that is a liscense to strip em all because that type thing doesnt happen in nature often enough to have enough resiliance to fully recover without suffering in root development, refolliating, and devoting its energy to upcoming reproduction.
again, just one guys opinion here
P.S. if you must snip a few leaves just to see then at least do it 3 days after the new moon as it will be rising and better encourage new growth. call me old fashioned
P.S.S. boy i cant wait to hear the feed back on my moon comment lmao
i think that there are ready replacements under fan leaves as a natural precaution to things that may happen in a natural setting I.E. outdoors. such as a freakin pine cone falling and knocking off a leaf or two. things like this happen in the great outdoors and its like a back up plan mother nature has given the plant and the plant will recover very quickly. . this IMO does not suggest that is a liscense to strip em all because that type thing doesnt happen in nature often enough to have enough resiliance to fully recover without suffering in root development, refolliating, and devoting its energy to upcoming reproduction.
again, just one guys opinion here
P.S. if you must snip a few leaves just to see then at least do it 3 days after the new moon as it will be rising and better encourage new growth. call me old fashioned
P.S.S. boy i cant wait to hear the feed back on my moon comment lmao
Gank
Active Member
I prune the fans off of mine as well halfway thru flowering, I am outdoors. Second if taking leaves from the plant stunts the growth then tell me why in the world do you top the plant? When I top mine nothing about it stunts nothing. As a matter of fact it grows faster than before. Just my two cents.
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
1. I've grown both.
2. You failed to mention the use of gibberlic acid in the study. Keep it honest, eh?
3. IC Mag is just another collection of marijuana nerds thinking they have reinvented the wheel.
UB
reggaerican
Well-Known Member
i like to jump up and down on my plants in late flower to promote healthy buds.. i guess if that works good for me than prunning all your fan leaves should work for you..
GENIUS!!
GENIUS!!
rastadred22
Well-Known Member
topping early in vege is completely different than trimming late into flower! all the energy goes into correcting the problem youve given it from defoliating instead of into growing more dense buds and its a given i mean its common sense y get rid of the part of the plant that allow the light procces to work? the bud doesnt grow from the light hitting the buds it grows from the light on the fan leaves makes absolutley no sense to me! and if u want to talk about what happens in nature as many refer to this...mother nature doesnt go around plucking off leaves...that doesnt happen its like your a fast person so what ido is cut a leg off with the expectation that yea it will hurt but it will heal and you will run faster......
New Grower 420
Active Member
i see alota people bad mouth it seems like op has done tests to prove his facts i havent seen much from the opisition(only skimmed the thread my bad if i missed any thing)
New Grower 420
Active Member
i see alota people saying its bad to to but how many people have done a side by side? i see people say its basic botany well maryjane has never really been studied in depth by botanists diffrent rules may apply, there just alota factors that havent been studied or proven on bolth sides of the argument.