Defoliation - removing fan leaves for higher yield

A

accountant

Member
I don't believe training or pruning a plant is "mutilating" the plant. If you train your plants a certain way you probably don't need to defoliate, and tucking away leaves (or even just cutting leaves in half, as Ed Rosenthal suggested) does help but is far too time consuming to do.

Logically to me, it seems the plant gets far more light if there are a lot of smaller leaves rather than having only a handful of top fan leaves take all the light. Surface area, folks...

Neither me nor anybody else here is NOT responsible for what happens to your plants. I can only share what I know or do, and expect others to at least give it a try to see their results. I refrained from posting this in the beginner's forum because I didn't want people seeing the thread and ripping off every fan leaf blindly. I posted it here specifically because I figured people would be willing to do tests on even just 1 of their plants before deciding whether this is right for them or not.

The problem with comments like "it stunts growth" and "the plant needs all the fan leaves for energy" is that these people have likely not tried it and only have opinions on the technique based on how they think a plant works, and not necessarily by somebody who has given much thought to the idea that we're growing indoors (this method is only for indoor plants) and that we can manipulate the plant to suit your needs (maximize bud growth.)

These same people would probably have talked negative about supercropping (is crushing the stem "mutilating" the plant?), lollipopping, etc had these not been standard practices now. Maybe because these things seem unnatural, but it's important to remember that we aren't growing in nature. The plant doesn't have the same needs and concerns indoors.
 
PussymOneyWeed

PussymOneyWeed

Well-Known Member
darkdestruction420 said:
It hurts to see people mutilate their plants to try to fix not having suffecient lighting. If thats not an option their is still a better solution.....Tie the leaves out of the way, it takes about 5 seconds and requires string and tape, anyone could do it and doing so doesnt diminish its energy capabilities or stun the plant or throw away all the valuable stored energy in the leaves and get the lower buds more light still.
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We have a winner! no need to cut the leaves off when you can tie them out of the way. As ^ stated there not just "solar panels" they happen to be where the plants produces its energy and uses it when it needs it. But you're gonna do what you want to and it doesn't affect me in anyway so i could care less.
 
A

accountant

Member
fdd2blk said:
wait, ... what? bongsmilie
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For instance, we know 100 little cubes have far more surface area than one big cube. Taking into account that a big fan leaf will shade A LOT of smaller leaves on the top/middle/bottom of the plant, removing that fan leaf will let more light go down the plant and hit more smaller leaves vertically.
 
S

snocat

Active Member
Im a newbe when it comes to indoor growing but have read alot and learned alot in the past year.and have to many outdoor grows under my belt to remember them all,but anyways I have read that light degrades thc,has anyone else heard or read this before? if this is true then maybe those shade leaves are there for a reason. my plants are almost at 8 weeks and last night I was checking out the tricomes and it seems to me that my lower buds have more tricomes than the top ones,maybe I should say the middle buds,because the very lower buds dont get much light and are not as matured as the other buds wich is common but the top buds do not have the amount of tricomes as the ones below them,now maybe this is just my plants but I have also noticed in my outdoor grows the plants that were somewhat shaded from all day direct sunlight were always better than my plants that got direct sun all day.now these are just my observations and I guess where you live would effect any outdoor grow along with many other things.I think that if the plant came with those leaves then why take them off,I have move the shade leaves in my indoor grow but havent cut any off next grow I will definatly try it with 1 or 2 plants and see what the results are. peace and grow on
 
F

fdd2blk

Well-Known Member
accountant said:
For instance, we know 100 little cubes have far more surface area than one big cube. Taking into account that a big fan leaf will shade A LOT of smaller leaves on the top/middle/bottom of the plant, removing that fan leaf will let more light go down the plant and hit more smaller leaves vertically.
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so why are those leaves even there in the first place?

if you have 100 cubes that are 1 x 1 and you put them all together you will have 100 square inch of coverage. if you have a 10 x 10 cube you will have 100 square inches of coverage. i don't understand your reasoning.
 
A

accountant

Member
fdd2blk said:
so why are those leaves even there in the first place?

if you have 100 cubes that are 1 x 1 and you put them all together you will have 100 square inch of coverage. if you have a 10 x 10 cube you will have 100 square inches of coverage. i don't understand your reasoning.
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Leaves do have a purpose. They store nutrients and they protect the plant from the elements (and animals.) These things are not an issue for us indoors however, as we provide nutrients the entire cycle, and most of us don't have a deer that's going to come bite off our main cola.

Why would you put the 100 cubes together? Leaving space between them increases surface area.


(the surface area argument is my own hypothesis on why this works for me. Perhaps the plant feels like it's dying and just decides to pump out fatter nugs)
 
F

fdd2blk

Well-Known Member
accountant said:
Leaves do have a purpose. They store nutrients and they protect the plant from the elements (and animals.) These things are not an issue for us indoors however, as we provide nutrients the entire cycle, and most of us don't have a deer that's going to come bite off our main cola.

Why would you put the 100 cubes together? Leaving space between them increases surface area.


(the surface area argument is my own hypothesis on why this works for me. Perhaps the plant feels like it's dying and just decides to pump out fatter nugs)
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leaves are flat. :wall:


this whole concept you are promoting is based on your guesses and assumptions.


i wish you luck.


bongsmilie
 
A

accountant

Member
fdd2blk said:
leaves are flat. :wall:

bongsmilie
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Leaves are flat. The image was only to show what surface area means in general. A leaf removed would add more light to all the smaller leaves below it. i.e., if you have a 2 foot tall plant and the light can't get passed the first 6" of the plant due to the canopy, you're not utilizing the leaves beneath the canopy. This depends on how the plant is trained, light intensity, etc. This is just what I think though, and is probably not why defoliation works (for me and others.)

I began by trying this on a few plants in veg which I was tossing out. They didn't die, growth wasn't stunted, and within a week or two all the leaves grew back. After seeing this I tried it on flowering plants and the results were phenomenal. Now I'm a curious guy, and I need to know why this works, but that's a separate issue from whether it works or not—at least in my experience.
 
Dwezelitsame

Dwezelitsame

Well-Known Member
this is interesting

i have tried both all leaves on and all leaves off have everyone debating tried both or talking from what i heard and what i read , just curious

i dont want to get into this battle of the know it alls cause i know nothing but im at it for a year and like to experiment but sometimes i have to pay for my errors but its a part of learning best lessons learned those that cost you for the credits in some way

this is a cut and paste from golden seeds mj info and seeds site
good day


"Interesting facts" THEORIES WHY TO TRIM FAN LEAVES
Increase Lower Bud Development
The fan leaves shade lower buds and that these buds do not develop to there full potential because of a reduction in lighting intensity due to shading from upper fan leaves.

To conserve energy for upper bud development
Trimming fan leaves and lower, shaded branches focuses the plant’s development on main top buds. A plant wastes precious energy several ways. A tall plant needs to use energy to build extra stem, and then use extra energy to move water up higher, this is why I believe "scrog" methods are productive. An untrimmed bushy plant causes the plant to expend energy to build elaborate branches and leaves, and then has to use excess energy to supply all these structures. Careful trimming to remove unnecessary branches (which wont produce nice buds) and unproductive suckers will leave more energy for a larger yield. Suckers do exactly as their name suggests, they suck needless energy from the plant which can be put to better use, towards yield.
 
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ogreballerina

Well-Known Member
I never remove fans leaves anymore until late in flowering....( I learned my lesson)

I will actually wait until they yellow and die before cutting them off...

I will cut a few off here( Or just one finger leaf or even the tip) if they are rubbing up against a bud.
I use bending method for more colas...I always cut off any popcorn growth.

I learned my lesson..leaves are the buds factories...and every time you cut off a good leaf your firing an employee...
 
A

accountant

Member
Dwezelitsame said:
this is interesting

this is a cut and paste from golden seeds mj info and seeds site
good day

"Interesting facts" THEORIES WHY TO TRIM FAN LEAVES
Increase Lower Bud Development
The fan leaves shade lower buds and that these buds do not develop to there full potential because of a reduction in lighting intensity due to shading from upper fan leaves.

To conserve energy for upper bud development
Trimming fan leaves and lower, shaded branches focuses the plant’s development on main top buds. A plant wastes precious energy several ways. A tall plant needs to use energy to build extra stem, and then use extra energy to move water up higher, this is why I believe "scrog" methods are productive. An untrimmed bushy plant causes the plant to expend energy to build elaborate branches and leaves, and then has to use excess energy to supply all these structures. Careful trimming to remove unnecessary branches (which wont produce nice buds) and unproductive suckers will leave more energy for a larger yield. Suckers do exactly as their name suggests, they suck needless energy from the plant which can be put to better use, towards yield.
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Thanks for the quote - removing "suckers" is actually pretty common when growing tomatos and does not hurt the plant. Lollipopping is a similar technique we use in SoG to promote the development of a single cola with no popcorn buds.


I never remove fans leaves anymore until late in flowering....( I learned my lesson)
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What were the consequences when you removed leaves? what stage was the plant in? what strain(s)? I'm not doubting you—just curious because my plants are doing fine plucked.
 
Miss MeanWeed

Miss MeanWeed

Active Member
accountant said:
Leaves are flat. The image was only to show what surface area means in general. A leaf removed would add more light to all the smaller leaves below it. i.e., if you have a 2 foot tall plant and the light can't get passed the first 6" of the plant due to the canopy, you're not utilizing the leaves beneath the canopy. This depends on how the plant is trained, light intensity, etc. This is just what I think though, and is probably not why defoliation works (for me and others.)

I began by trying this on a few plants in veg which I was tossing out. They didn't die, growth wasn't stunted, and within a week or two all the leaves grew back. After seeing this I tried it on flowering plants and the results were phenomenal. Now I'm a curious guy, and I need to know why this works, but that's a separate issue from whether it works or not—at least in my experience.
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Have you tried it with differing strains? Does it make flowering longer?
 
Werry420

Werry420

Active Member
i do also remove all my fan leafs but NOT till the final 2 weeks of flowering and i still get great buds
 
Scott187

Scott187

Active Member
i don't cut off any fan leaves til they die and wither off naturally. your plant will tell you when its done with the leafs. let your plant grow like its suppose to. eventually the lower buds will come, small but they will come.
 
A

accountant

Member
darkdestruction420 said:
Why???? throwing away all the stored energy is a waste.....your plants made it and stored it for a reason you know....
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Growing indoors, we supply the plant with nutrients indefinitely unless you're going organic. It doesn't need to store anything (not that I'm saying leaves are ONLY for storage.)
 
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