complete darkness ????

Dr Kynes

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
raven1290 said:
Well, maybe I'm wrong, but I've done harvests with and without flushing and noticed a difference in taste and smell. Perhaps it's just me, but myth or not I'm going to keep doing a final flush. Also, I never said trichomes were there to catch bugs, but to protect the plant against them.

http://www.cannabisculture.com/content/inside-trichome
http://www.answers.com/topic/what-are-the-functions-of-trichomes
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/trichome
http://www.flickr.com/photos/67198491@N05/6269520969/
Click to expand...
sticky resinous glands do not protect against bugs, they TRAP THEM, yet i have never seen a cluster of bugs stuck to my dope.

FYI some trichomes (like the african violet pictured in your uninformative flickr link) are proto-root structures, which will become actual roots if they contact moist soil. this is why you can root african violets from a snippet of leaf which is not possible with many other plants. the trichomes of a tomatoe plant perform a similar duty, allowing roots to develop readily wherever a branch contacts soil. the fine hairs of a fig tree are intended to irritate browsing herbivores, and the spines of cacti do a similar duty. none of this has dick to do with sticky resinous glands on reproductive organs of any plant, much less an unusual species like cannabis.

the sticky resinous glands of dope do not offer any protection from budworms, whiteflies, spider mites, or any other dope pest critter, they are found solely on the reproductive organs of the female flower for the catching of windblown pollen.
you can doubt this to your heart's contentment, but it remains true. this is why calyxes which are un-pollinated produce MORE STICKY RESIN while pollinated calyxes stop producing resin and instead direct their energy to producing seeds.

or do you imagine that once seed production begins, the "protective power" of the sticky resin becomes somehow Less Important? if it were protective, then seed production (the ultimate goal of the plant) would require greater levels of protection through stickiness, not less.

none of your dictionary (lol) incomplete and inaccurate answers dot com (double lol) and cannabis culture dot com (triple lol) or wildly inaccurate flickr links (ultimate lol) support your claim that sticky resinous glands on the female flower are somehow protective, but then a list of irrelevant or inaccurate links is often all the "proof" that can be provided to support an erroneous assumption.

sadly the taboo on scirentific research with cannabis has resulted in very few scholarly examinations of the plant and it's reproduction, so i am unable to provide a definitive link from a reliable source, however in EVERY SINGLE PLANT ON EARTH sticky resins on the female reproductive organs are there to catch pollen, not to trap or repel bugs. this is true of both perfect flowers (like roses where the resin forms on the pistils and ova) or imperfect flowers, (like pines where the resin is on the mega-ova, the "cone")

biology is not haphazard nor is it capricious.
structures found solely on the ova are for the catching of pollen. thats is all.
 
hydrocropper420

hydrocropper420

Active Member
shit man you got some damn info, youe like a botany god, i see you have some knowledge my friend, but if both of them are such a myth, WHY does so many (even veterans) use both these methods, PLEASE take no offense, after reading more I have 100% respect for you!!
Dr Kynes said:
sticky resinous glands do not protect against bugs, they TRAP THEM, yet i have never seen a cluster of bugs stuck to my dope.

FYI some trichomes (like the african violet pictured in your uninformative flickr link) are proto-root structures, which will become actual roots if they contact moist soil. this is why you can root african violets from a snippet of leaf which is not possible with many other plants. the trichomes of a tomatoe plant perform a similar duty, allowing roots to develop readily wherever a branch contacts soil. the fine hairs of a fig tree are intended to irritate browsing herbivores, and the spines of cacti do a similar duty. none of this has dick to do with sticky resinous glands on reproductive organs of any plant, much less an unusual species like cannabis.

the sticky resinous glands of dope do not offer any protection from budworms, whiteflies, spider mites, or any other dope pest critter, they are found solely on the reproductive organs of the female flower for the catching of windblown pollen.
you can doubt this to your heart's contentment, but it remains true. this is why calyxes which are un-pollinated produce MORE STICKY RESIN while pollinated calyxes stop producing resin and instead direct their energy to producing seeds.

or do you imagine that once seed production begins, the "protective power" of the sticky resin becomes somehow Less Important? if it were protective, then seed production (the ultimate goal of the plant) would require greater levels of protection through stickiness, not less.

none of your dictionary (lol) incomplete and inaccurate answers dot com (double lol) and cannabis culture dot com (triple lol) or wildly inaccurate flickr links (ultimate lol) support your claim that sticky resinous glands on the female flower are somehow protective, but then a list of irrelevant or inaccurate links is often all the "proof" that can be provided to support an erroneous assumption.

sadly the taboo on scirentific research with cannabis has resulted in very few scholarly examinations of the plant and it's reproduction, so i am unable to provide a definitive link from a reliable source, however in EVERY SINGLE PLANT ON EARTH sticky resins on the female reproductive organs are there to catch pollen, not to trap or repel bugs. this is true of both perfect flowers (like roses where the resin forms on the pistils and ova) or imperfect flowers, (like pines where the resin is on the mega-ova, the "cone")

biology is not haphazard nor is it capricious.
structures found solely on the ova are for the catching of pollen. thats is all.
Click to expand...
 
Dr Kynes

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
hydrocropper420 said:
i dont agree with this entirely, pollin may stick to a trichome but will NOT produce a seed, its the pistol (hairs) at the end of the calyx that collects the pollin, trichomes and resin are one of the same thing, and they do NOT deliver polin to the calyx, the pistol does, or leaves would have seeds also as they are also covered in tricmes. One little ball of pollen lands on one of the white hairs, works its way down into the calyx and a seed develops, without the pollen there, the calyx just fills with THC resin istead of a seed, as for the darkness, its true for flush flavor, to get all the nutrients that the plant used to grow and get them out of the plant to get rid of a chemical flavor and add an organic flavor, it is a difference especially with hydro, and for rkness and the buds, it does make them work harder for 2 days of dark, its dying trying to find light because its depraved, thus making it crystalize twice as much, (some not al strains will be better to do this)sativas are good for darkness, due to their naturally longer harvest time, this is all from my personal experience along with a few other growers i work with (sensimilla-without seed)
Click to expand...
sigh...

the long wavy hairs of the pistils are there to take pollen to the calyx core and the ova, the sticky resin around the calyxes is there to catch pollen, which may not even reach the pistils, however this is why the pistils are so long and wavy. the action of the wind (cannabis' pollen friend) can move the pistils, nearby leaves and other resinous areas into contact with the pollen trapped in the resin thus transferring it to the pistil resulting in delivery to the calyx.

this is the same reason coneflowers (like strawberry, sunflowers, daisies and echinacea) have that big prominent button in the center of the flower, to attract bees and other nectar seeking insects and provide a large area to catch pollen with the fine sticky ended pistils found within the flower's central cone leading to the ova, while other flowers use a deep trumpet with prominent pistils and stamen to make the transfer through pollinators.

cannabis is a primitive early version of the flower. thats why it is so unusual, much like ginko biloba, conifers and hops.
 
Dr Kynes

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
hydrocropper420 said:
shit man you got some damn info, youe like a botany god, i see you have some knowledge my friend, but if both of them are such a myth, WHY does so many (even veterans) use both these methods, PLEASE take no offense, after reading more I have 100% respect for you!!
Click to expand...
some people still believe that the earth rides on the back of an elephant who rides on the back of a turtle, who rides on another turtle, and so on....

even when you ask, "what does the last turtle rest on?" they respond "Fuck You! it's Turtles All The Way Down!"

bad logic is illogical, thats why they call it that.

some people to this day believe that if you ask somebody "are you a cop?" before selling them some dope or engaging in prostitution that a cop has to answer yes....

this is untrue, but the myth persists.
 
hydrocropper420

hydrocropper420

Active Member
I very highly doubt that anyone would disagree that there is a science to why hydro buds are way bigger than an organic grow, thats a fact, side by side grow coparison, thats 100% proven along with flushing, I personally dont think JORGE CERVANTES would include darkness and flushing in his videos if there was NO benefit, hes the pot GOD, whos with me on this???!!!
 
hydrocropper420

hydrocropper420

Active Member
LOL ill give ya thatfor sure, ''th thing to do'' if you will, something people just believe cuz its just wha you do, iget ya completely, but what if the guys that do the darkness and flushing (as i do) stop, and our crop turns out not as good as the past, can we blame it on your theory, or are we responsible for our own crop here, basically does your advice hold water or do you just sound that brilliant, I mean i can use words but you sound like a fuckin rocket scientist, damn, LOL, again no offense!!
Dr Kynes said:
some people still believe that the earth rides on the back of an elephant who rides on the back of a turtle, who rides on another turtle, and so on....

even when you ask, "what does the last turtle rest on?" they respond "Fuck You! it's Turtles All The Way Down!"

bad logic is illogical, thats why they call it that.

some people to this day believe that if you ask somebody "are you a cop?" before selling them some dope or engaging in prostitution that a cop has to answer yes....

this is untrue, but the myth persists.
Click to expand...
 
Dr Kynes

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
hydrocropper420 said:
I very highly doubt that anyone would disagree that there is a science to why hydro buds are way bigger than an organic grow, thats a fact, side by side grow coparison, thats 100% proven along with flushing, I personally dont think JORGE CERVANTES would include darkness and flushing in his videos if there was NO benefit, hes the pot GOD, whos with me on this???!!!
Click to expand...
hydroponics and aeroponics result in bigger fruits, bigger buds and bigger yields due to scientifically verifiable testable and ultimately provable controls over the growing conditions which you can not get in the open environment in fields, or with soil.

however, the curiously taboo nature of dope cultivation prevents scholarly research, and publication of findings for peeer review, so all we have is rumours and myths propagated by appeals to authority, or flawed assumptions.

the only way to actually determine if flushing or extended pre-harvest darkness results in better dope would be a double blind test grow of multiple clones (literally hundreds or even thousands to get statistically relevant results) of the same plant under identical conditions with only the variables at question changing, as well as many control plants, which would require extensive facilities for the many grows, in addition to laboratory testing and calibration equipment, tenders for the various grows who can NEVER meet each other or the test operators (or it's no longer double blind) and several months of dedicated lab time resulting in very little smokeable dope since it will likely all be used in testing unless the operation is truely massive.

the concepts however do not adhere to accepted theories of botany, horticulture or agriculture, so the likelihood of the testing being done is nearly zero. much in the way the tests for "pyramid power" or the "energy matrix of crystals" will never be proved or disproved, since these theories are patently retarded.

if somebody wants to perform these experiments i am willing to work for $15 an hour and some dope. i will even relocate, just drop me a line.
 
E

Edgar9

Well-Known Member
I've done the 48 hours of darkness and also harvested without it. The only thing I noticed after doing the 48 hours of darkness is that it makes the plants look like shit. I was actually too embarrassed to let anyone see my plants after they were subjected to the 48 hours of darkness.

I think it's also a good way to end up with budrot/mold. I'll never do it again. If the plants are ready to be harvested, then just harvest them. There's no 48 hours of darkness in nature.
 
A

Anotherlover

Active Member
lol, I have stuck a few plants into complete darkness.

Not as a magical means to up the strength of the plant, simply because I have a plant that I will be trimming soon anyway but just don't have the time to do right now and the cupboard is a nice, clean, sterile, empty space.

I have one in a cupboard right now and will leave it there till the soil is completely dry just to speed up actual drying time a bit.

No rush though, I have several jars full of curing bud and some bud in my drying area.
Currently set for at least the next 2 to 3 months (by which time my outdoor plants as well as current crop in flowering room will be more or less ready for harvest).
 
R

raven1290

Active Member
Ok, I'm not disputeing that you seem to know a lot about botony. However, if sticky resin glands are only on the flower, then what are all those sticky things on the leaves of the plant? Also, I came up with 4 links (and there're more out there) to support my claims, you couldn't come up with a single link to support yours even with the wealth of information (true or false) on the internet. Could you atleast provide me with the title of a book or some reference I could go and read?
 
Dr Kynes

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
raven1290 said:
Ok, I'm not disputeing that you seem to know a lot about botony. However, if sticky resin glands are only on the flower, then what are all those sticky things on the leaves of the plant? Also, I came up with 4 links (and there're more out there) to support my claims, you couldn't come up with a single link to support yours even with the wealth of information (true or false) on the internet. Could you atleast provide me with the title of a book or some reference I could go and read?
Click to expand...
the sticky resin glands are all round the female flower, not on the broa leafs, not on the stems and not anywhere on the male plant.

the sticky areas around the female reproductive organs are to catch pollen, so that wind can move the foliage about and hopefully get some of that trapped pollen on the pistils. Thats why they are so long and wavy.

none of your links had shit to do with cannabis, or resin glands on the female reproductive organs of a dioecious imperfect flower, except the one from "Cannabis Culture dot com" which is just as counter to accepted botanical and agricultural theories as your own statements.

likewise your view is supported by numerous other dope related forum posts, some yippie dope growing guides from the 70's and many other sources which are NOT reliable, unless you propose that skewering your main stem with a rusty nail improves yields too?

every dioecious plant uses sticky resin on and around the female flowers to catch pollen. why is this so hard for you to grasp?

conifers do it, ginko biloba does it, hops do it, hackberry does it, even ordinary flowers produce sticky resin on and around their female structures, but they can be more targeted in their resin production by using pollinators, rather than relying on the wind like dope does.

if you can provide a single scholarly citation ( Grasscity forum posts or a dogeared copy of high times magazine do not count) arguing that sticky resin glands found on and around the female reproductive organs of ANY PLANT provide protection from insects i will eat my hat.

claiming the lack of scholarly study and publication regarding dope is proof of your rightness is specious at best.

http://faculty.unlv.edu/landau/gymnosperms.htm

specific to pine trees, as mentioned before but heres the relevant bit:

4. Pollination in gymnosperms involves a pollination droplet that protrudes from the micropyle when pollen grains are being shed. The droplet provides a large, sticky surface that catches the normally wind-borne pollen grains of gymnosperms so that the ovule is more likely to be fertilized. After pollination the droplet evaporates and contracts, carrying the pollen grains into the pollen chamber and into contact with the ovule.


another link dealing specifically with the resin of the female hop flower (a close relative of cannabis, being the second of only 2 species of cannabaceae s.s known)

https://pag.confex.com/pag/xxi/webprogram/Paper6942.html

again, resin is a product of the female reproductive organs, not the male, or the vegetation.
 
R

raven1290

Active Member
Actually you know what Dr Kynes, as I sit here thinking about our little arguement I've reached a conclusion. Who the hell cares what natures purpose is for trichomes. The only thing I really care about is that they have thc in them and I can smoke it to get high and feel better. So whether I'm right or you are, let's just be friends and worry about how to grow the perfect, most potent, seed and bug free plant. Agree?
 
R

raven1290

Active Member
Ok, so you provided 2 links that do not mention trichomes once. I originally stated trichomes are there for protection, not the resin formed within the flower itself. Do conifers or any other plant for that matter have trichomes? By the way, do have a degree in botony? You seem to have way too much information about plants for the average person.
 
Kite High

Kite High

Well-Known Member
Dr Kynes said:
trichomes and resin ARE the pollen receptors. they catch the pollen so it can be delivered to the calyx. thats why they are sticky, and that is their function, since cannabis is wind pollinated.


the logic behind the extended darkness before harvest is a mystery, its kind of like the myth of flushing, or the belief that "chemical" fertilizers are inferior to "natural" ones for the plant.

theres shitloads of old yippie and hippie myths regarding dope cultivation, and most of them are bullshit.
Click to expand...
BS!! The trichomes serve no purpose in reproduction...I mean c'mon think would ya? How could the pistil ever wrangle away the pollen granule from the super adhesive resin head? Have you looked at the pistil structures? They are fine web like hairs meant to snag and entrap the pollen granule and retrieve it into the waiting ovule. The resin glands are to deflect uv, repel trap insects and protection of the ovule and/or embryo from dehydration by shielding. Hey Doc read up on Botany ....

Cannabis Botany- Robert Clarke

"Biology of PollinationPollination is the event of pollen landing on a stig- matic surface such as the pistil, and fertilization isthe union of the staminate chromosomes from the pollen with the pistillate chromosomes from the ovule.Pollination begins with dehiscence (release of pollen) from staminate flowers. Millions of pollen grainsfloat through the air on light breezes, and many land on the stigmatic surfaces of nearby pistillate plants.If the pistil is ripe, the pollen grain will germinate and send out a long pollen tube much as a seed pushesout a root. The tube contains a haploid (in) generative nucleus and grows downward toward the ovule atthe base of the pistils. When the pollen tube reaches the ovule, the staminate haploid nucleus fuses withthe pistillate haploid nucleus and the diploid condition is restored. Germination of the pollen grainoccurs 15 to 20 minutes after contact with the stigmatic surface (pistil); fertilization may take up to twodays in cooler temperatures. Soon after fertilization, the pistils wither away as the ovule and surroundingcalyx begin to swell." No mention of trichome involvement whatsoever...
Furthermore
"Trichomes are plant hairs composed of one or more cells. Almost all gesneriads have leaves and flowers with trichomes. These hairs serve multiple purposes, including discouraging insect predators, reflecting sunlight, and insulating the plant body. The trichomes of the nettle (Urtica dioica), for instance, contain a substance which irritates the skin of a person who touches the leaf and breaks any trichomes.This cool picture, courtesy of Miriam Denham, shows the trichomes on Sinningia sulcata, magnified many times. The trichomes appear to be four (sometimes three) cells long. The purpose of these trichomes is probably insulation, but some species, such as S. amambayensis, have hairs with sticky wax-like substance(s) to deter insects."
http://www.burwur.net/sinns/3tricho.htm
However I am in complete agreement that preharvest flushing is useless and even detrimental to the final product. Its all about properly dried and cured as far as taste and aroma.
 
R

raven1290

Active Member
Kite High said:
BS!! The trichomes serve no purpose in reproduction...I mean c'mon think would ya? How could the pistil ever wrangle away the pollen granule from the super adhesive resin head? Have you looked at the pistil structures? They are fine web like hairs meant to snag and entrap the pollen granule and retrieve it into the waiting ovule. The resin glands are to deflect uv, repel trap insects and protection of the ovule and/or embryo from dehydration by shielding. Hey Doc read up on Botany ....

Cannabis Botany- Robert Clarke

"Biology of PollinationPollination is the event of pollen landing on a stig- matic surface such as the pistil, and fertilization isthe union of the staminate chromosomes from the pollen with the pistillate chromosomes from the ovule.Pollination begins with dehiscence (release of pollen) from staminate flowers. Millions of pollen grainsfloat through the air on light breezes, and many land on the stigmatic surfaces of nearby pistillate plants.If the pistil is ripe, the pollen grain will germinate and send out a long pollen tube much as a seed pushesout a root. The tube contains a haploid (in) generative nucleus and grows downward toward the ovule atthe base of the pistils. When the pollen tube reaches the ovule, the staminate haploid nucleus fuses withthe pistillate haploid nucleus and the diploid condition is restored. Germination of the pollen grainoccurs 15 to 20 minutes after contact with the stigmatic surface (pistil); fertilization may take up to twodays in cooler temperatures. Soon after fertilization, the pistils wither away as the ovule and surroundingcalyx begin to swell.
Click to expand...
Good post, but I don't think were going to change his mind. We've been back and forth for hours.
 
Shivaskunk

Shivaskunk

Well-Known Member
I know that when i go to create seeds i paste pollen on the pistils not trichomes. Ive also seen many trichomes on stems, stalks, and even broad leaves under magnification. Nit capitate-stalked trichomes but definitely capitate-sessile trichomes right on the leaf. I wouldnt doubt at all that a function of trichomes on cannabis is capturing pollen, but you stated that they transfer pollen right to the calyx and thats simply not true.
 
Kite High

Kite High

Well-Known Member
raven1290 said:
Good post, but I don't think were going to change his mind. We've been back and forth for hours.
Click to expand...
I do not seek to change his mind...that is his problem...lol

But in furtherance of thought here, if its purpose is as he states to capture pollen, then why does the plant grow trichomes from sprout and what function do the cannabinoids contribute to catching pollen? Utterly preposterous line of thought...wow
 
T

Tomselik

Member
Kite High said:
BS!! The trichomes serve no purpose in reproduction...I mean c'mon think would ya? How could the pistil ever wrangle away the pollen granule from the super adhesive resin head? Have you looked at the pistil structures? They are fine web like hairs meant to snag and entrap the pollen granule and retrieve it into the waiting ovule. The resin glands are to deflect uv, repel trap insects and protection of the ovule and/or embryo from dehydration by shielding. Hey Doc read up on Botany ....

Cannabis Botany- Robert Clarke

"Biology of PollinationPollination is the event of pollen landing on a stig- matic surface such as the pistil, and fertilization isthe union of the staminate chromosomes from the pollen with the pistillate chromosomes from the ovule.Pollination begins with dehiscence (release of pollen) from staminate flowers. Millions of pollen grainsfloat through the air on light breezes, and many land on the stigmatic surfaces of nearby pistillate plants.If the pistil is ripe, the pollen grain will germinate and send out a long pollen tube much as a seed pushesout a root. The tube contains a haploid (in) generative nucleus and grows downward toward the ovule atthe base of the pistils. When the pollen tube reaches the ovule, the staminate haploid nucleus fuses withthe pistillate haploid nucleus and the diploid condition is restored. Germination of the pollen grainoccurs 15 to 20 minutes after contact with the stigmatic surface (pistil); fertilization may take up to twodays in cooler temperatures. Soon after fertilization, the pistils wither away as the ovule and surroundingcalyx begin to swell." No mention of trichome involvement whatsoever...
Furthermore
"Trichomes are plant hairs composed of one or more cells. Almost all gesneriads have leaves and flowers with trichomes. These hairs serve multiple purposes, including discouraging insect predators, reflecting sunlight, and insulating the plant body. The trichomes of the nettle (Urtica dioica), for instance, contain a substance which irritates the skin of a person who touches the leaf and breaks any trichomes.This cool picture, courtesy of Miriam Denham, shows the trichomes on Sinningia sulcata, magnified many times. The trichomes appear to be four (sometimes three) cells long. The purpose of these trichomes is probably insulation, but some species, such as S. amambayensis, have hairs with sticky wax-like substance(s) to deter insects."
http://www.burwur.net/sinns/3tricho.htm
However I am in complete agreement that preharvest flushing is useless and even detrimental to the final product. Its all about properly dried and cured as far as taste and aroma.
Click to expand...
The more tricomes the higher the chance it has to be pollinated by a bee landing on it or what ever. It will increase the chance of procreation.
Don't you think a bee would be more prone to check out the cannabis covered in tricomes compared to 1 with nothing at all. Dummy ass dummy
 
Kite High

Kite High

Well-Known Member
Tomselik said:
The more tricomes the higher the chance it has to be pollinated by a bee landing on it or what ever. It will increase the chance of procreation.
Don't you think a bee would be more prone to check out the cannabis covered in tricomes compared to 1 with nothing at all. Dummy ass dummy
Click to expand...
cannabis has no insect or bird pollinators as there are NO SUGARS OR "NECTAR" to attract these pollinators in cannabis flowers so why would pollinators even pay mind to a plant flower with no food source for them? Wtf is your bee gonna want to fuck with a trichome it can do nothing with?

Cannabis only needs a slight breeze to do its thing. Study botany people and you won't have all these preposterous bunches of bullshit in your head. And stick your "dummy" up your ass clown. You have to be all of what, 16?
 
C

cannabiscultivation

Active Member
well.


My personal investigation of flavor has revealed to ME, 1 week of dark with a continual flush of fresh bubbler water makes the best tasting herb out of weed that did not taste nice without it.
 
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