BEST RESULTS- should nutrients come from soil or in a bottle?

I am looking to start an organic grow soon. I still am not sure which provides best results....

1. A soil such as subcools super soil which provides all nutrients for the entire grow.

2. An organic soil with some additives as well....most nutrients come from a bottle known to be organic.

There will be many opinions on this, and most people assume that what works best for them will work best for you.

For indoor gardens: the answer is YES. Or more specifically (IMO) best results are achieved when using both. Slow release organics combined with teas, and soluble organic food. I say soluble because some of the best products (ie technaflora soluble seaweed) comes in dry soluble form, although many prefer liquid organic foods.

The real answer comes down to your priorities. If you want to spend as little as possible with great results, then a super soil/teas routine will suffice. If you have aspirations to take it to the highest levels, then supplementation can give you more control.

Matt Rize said:

There will be many opinions on this, and most people assume that what works best for them will work best for you.

For indoor gardens: the answer is YES. Or more specifically (IMO) best results are achieved when using both. Slow release organics combined with teas, and soluble organic food. I say soluble because some of the best products (ie technaflora soluble seaweed) comes in dry soluble form, although many prefer liquid organic foods.

The real answer comes down to your priorities. If you want to spend as little as possible with great results, then a super soil/teas routine will suffice. If you have aspirations to take it to the highest levels, then supplementation can give you more control.

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excellent reply, thankyou...+rep

And I'll go a little farther. For higher quality smoke: Go light on your slow-release food in your super soil. Do this planning on finishing your plants with only soluble organic food. That way you can completely cut the food out at the end, and give a better flush, leading to tastier smoke.

Matt Rize said:

And I'll go a little farther. For higher quality smoke: Go light on your slow-release food in your super soil. Do this planning on finishing your plants with only soluble organic food. That way you can completely cut the food out at the end, and give a better flush, leading to tastier smoke.

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good point...

a list of a few things i have, can someone tell me if this is a good start for an organic grow supplementing with organic nutrients?

fox farm ocean forest
1oz botanicare zho rhizosphere root inoculant
2oz 100% earthworm castings
2.25oz bat guano high phos 0-13-0
1oz water soluble inoculant with beneficial bacteria
3 types of myco- age old grow, great white, humboldt nutrients

im sure this is enough for a plant or two right? i think ill go out and get some dolomite lime and a few other additives as well...any suggestions on must have items for this soil?

Ocean forest- high quality soil mix. good choice
ZHO - also can't go wrong with a little inoculant
Earthworm casting - great food source to mix in
bat guano - also great phos source, for flowering i assume
other soluble inoculant - can't go wrong with microbes, if it is in the budget
age old grow - is a veg fert, not a myco. i started with this a long time ago. use it up, plan on stepping up to a higher quality product down the road. not sure it is certified organic.
Great white & HN myco madness - more inoculants, making this your third/fourth microbe ingredient, and expensive ones at that. But they can't hurt, use sparingly and keep in a dark cool place.

The only thing I would get is a K source (in the NPK). My fave is technaflora's soluble seaweed, super high quality and shelf stable forever.

Matt Rize said:

Ocean forest- high quality soil mix. good choice
ZHO - also can't go wrong with a little inoculant
Earthworm casting - great food source to mix in
bat guano - also great phos source, for flowering i assume
other soluble inoculant - can't go wrong with microbes, if it is in the budget
age old grow - is a veg fert, not a myco. i started with this a long time ago. use it up, plan on stepping up to a higher quality product down the road. not sure it is certified organic.
Great white & HN myco madness - more inoculants, making this your third/fourth microbe ingredient, and expensive ones at that. But they can't hurt, use sparingly and keep in a dark cool place.

The only thing I would get is a K source (in the NPK). My fave is technaflora's soluble seaweed, super high quality and shelf stable forever.

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man youve been extremely helpful,+rep. not many people can break this down like i am asking. age old actually has a water soluble myco...along with that i do have the age old grow 12-6-6....it has been opened for over a year now, will this matter? It has been stored in a cool dark place.

i think the age old grow will give me a good source of K right? now the thing i dont understand is when do i feed with it? im used to feeding every week in synthetics. there will be enough food in the soil for some time right? id like to make teas as well.

i also have some 4oz of geohumus. sounds like i should just choose a myco and run with that right? roughly how many gallons of soil can these little samples make? i can figure out the math later....just wondering if you had an idea.

also, would you cook these ingredients? how would you go about mixing these and preparation before transplant?

aeviaanah said:

man youve been extremely helpful,+rep. not many people can break this down like i am asking. age old actually has a water soluble myco...along with that i do have the age old grow 12-6-6....it has been opened for over a year now, will this matter? It has been stored in a cool dark place.

i think the age old grow will give me a good source of K right? now the thing i dont understand is when do i feed with it? im used to feeding every week in synthetics. there will be enough food in the soil for some time right? id like to make teas as well.

i also have some 4oz of geohumus. sounds like i should just choose a myco and run with that right? roughly how many gallons of soil can these little samples make? i can figure out the math later....just wondering if you had an idea.

also, would you cook these ingredients? how would you go about mixing these and preparation before transplant?

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Hey, your welcome, this is what I do for a living here in Cali. I teach at the north bay campus of OU. Just thought it was about time to give back after learning so much from the canna-threads.

Yes, age old nutes can go bad in the dark, been there personally since I switched off of it completely and forgot about the bottles. Smell them, if they smell rancid they have spoiled. A year is pushing it, but they might still be okay.

With indoor organics, figuring out when and what to feed is the tricky part. That is why many choose to go with a complete pre-mix formula like sub's super soil. Less thinking required.

But for those of us who like to start their plants on pre-mix food, and transition over to soluble organics for flowering, we have to do some analysis. This will take a little time and depend heavily on what you are using for slow release food. I used to transition to soluble food at the first sign of deficiency, usually around 3 to 4 weeks in Ocean Forest. Start light with the soluble food and step it up slowly, knowing that your slow-release is running out. Earth worm castings alone (right?) as your only added slow release food will not add that much NPK. You will have to start by feeding for the end of veg (grow formula) and phasing over to cover the nutritional potential of flowering (more P/K from bloom formula). Or you can cut out the bloom formula and use a little of the grow with bat guano and soluble seaweed. Also, consider a tea of some sort during veg and during bloom to unlock the potential from the Ocean Forest/castings.

Geohumus is a soil conditioner, good for keeping your mix fluffy, but not a nutrient. I've never worked with it, but seems to be an interesting alternative to perlite. Sorry, no idea about how to use it.

DON'T COOK ANYTHING! Your ingredients are all ready to use. Cooking will kill your microbes and degrade your nutes.

Mix in your granular inoculants before planting. Water in your soluble microbes all the way through.

why does subcool say to cook his pre-mix? when should one cook/not cook?

aeviaanah said:

why does subcool say to cook his pre-mix? when should one cook/not cook?

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Oh, I thought you meant you are cooking your nutes and inoculants. Yeah, you can cook your soils, but with just Ocean Forest and earthworm castings that is not needed or beneficial.

The super soil mix has lots of slow release ingredients, and 'cooking' can be beneficial to release some nutrients into the mix. It is a concentrate soil mix, to be combined with a base soil or used as a dressing. From sub's thread:

"Now, we add water and let it cook in the sunshine. Thirty days of cooking is best for this concentrate.

Do not put seeds or clones directly in this mix. It is a concentrated mix used in conjunction with base soil. Place it in the bottom of each finishing container. Fully rooted, established clones should be placed in a bed of base soil that is layered on top of the concentrate. As the plants grow, they slowly push their roots into the Super Soil, drawing up all nutrients needed to complete their life cycle. Super Soil can also be used to top dress plants that take longer to mature."

Matt Rize said:

Oh, I thought you meant you are cooking your nutes and inoculants. Yeah, you can cook your soils, but with just Ocean Forest and earthworm castings that is not needed or beneficial.

The super soil mix has lots of slow release ingredients, and 'cooking' can be beneficial to release some nutrients into the mix. It is a concentrate soil mix, to be combined with a base soil or used as a dressing. From sub's thread:

"Now, we add water and let it cook in the sunshine. Thirty days of cooking is best for this concentrate.

Do not put seeds or clones directly in this mix. It is a concentrated mix used in conjunction with base soil. Place it in the bottom of each finishing container. Fully rooted, established clones should be placed in a bed of base soil that is layered on top of the concentrate. As the plants grow, they slowly push their roots into the Super Soil, drawing up all nutrients needed to complete their life cycle. Super Soil can also be used to top dress plants that take longer to mature."

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ok so you just surround an existing soil with this stuff....

aeviaanah said:

ok so you just surround an existing soil with this stuff....

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Or transplant into it with established healthy plants. Same thing basically. I used to use this system and found it great for healthy growth, but lacking in smoke quality because of an inability to flush. I don't mess with slow release feces (or poop at all) anymore. I'm all vegan organic these days, so I have to feed from start to finish.

I add solid nutrients - horse manure and worm casts to my soil mix. But as the plant grows and the roots grow that soil gets largely replaced by roots. So I also use liquid nutes, to feed the roots when there is little soil left.

And isn´t cooking soil mainly to sterilise it - kill off weeds and principally insect eggs - kill the sciarid fly??

Spanishfly said:

I add solid nutrients - horse manure and worm casts to my soil mix. But as the plant grows and the roots grow that soil gets largely replaced by roots. So I also use liquid nutes, to feed the roots when there is little soil left.

And isn´t cooking soil mainly to sterilise it - kill off weeds and principally insect eggs - kill the sciarid fly??

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Yeah, I thought so, also speeds up breakdown a little. And it has to be cooked in an oven of some sort to kill the larvae, not just heated by the sun.

Matt Rize said:

Yeah, I thought so, also speeds up breakdown a little. And it has to be cooked in an oven of some sort to kill the larvae, not just heated by the sun.

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This is what subcool said
"Now, we add water and let it cook in the sunshine. Thirty days of cooking is best for this concentrate."
when i said cook, i meant to sit outside in the sun...

so your thinking i should mix age old grow powder with earthworm castings with ffof? also add a little geohumus and myco as well? this will provide enough food a few weeks or so? i also have soil sulfur....can this be used instead of dolomite lime?