best air stone, diffuser, and pump? dwc

fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
OregonMeds said:
I've always wondered fatman what kind of difference there really is in heat put into the water with a saltwater type external mag drive pump and internal mag drive. Even the external flows water around the back of the impeller and around the inside of the coil from what I can tell, so how much is air cooled in reality?
Would a pool type pump pass less heat?
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Depends on the pump. Many air cooled pumps that are mag drive have a few inches between the motor and the pump so very little heat is transferred. Even those that do not have that space of seperation are still loosing n more of the motors heat through their metal cases then through the plastic pump material attached to the motors steel case. Air can takeup, transport and disperse the thermal energy quicker and more efficiently than the heat can pass through the plastic to the water.

Plus as stated, most quality air cooled pump motors are enclosed in metal to quickly dissipate the heat to the air. Most air cooled pumps also have an internal fan blade to quickly dissipate heat to the air so it is not transfer to the pumps water. Then again most air cooled pumps used for reef aquariums and therfore growers have plastic cases and plastic magnets which transfer much less heat to the water from the metal cased motors.

This is far from the case with cheap plastic cased motors like the Danner pumps or the submersible pumps which transfer all or in the case of the Danner used externallly nearly all heat energy to the water.

Some external air cooled pumps are even in aluminum amd aluminum finned cases to run cool and tranfers very, very little heat to the water. If t you buy an external pump with a plastic case be assured nearly all the motors heat energy is being taken up by the pumps water as the plastic case insulates the motor and the water is better capable of taking up the water that the air when both are enclosed in the same plastic case.
 
tea tree

tea tree

Well-Known Member
great thread. I currently have a 20 watt air pump that is using two 1 dollar airstones in a five gal dwc. While I have a boiling and bubbling and explosive mix I cant help but think I can refine this a little with that wooden air stone. That one looks cherry. Altho my trees grew fine with 3 watts and one airstone per five gallon I think with 10 watts thru two airstones I saw a surge. I have that standard metal pump on eBay for 54 dollars I beleive. I forget who makes it. Loud, gets hot but reliable and strong. Some of those backflo preventers are also o my list for next paycheck. I would not mind one bucket on my floor of my tent but 4! would suck. As in if pumps fail below waterline when they start up again they pump water out!
 
OregonMeds

OregonMeds

Well-Known Member
I'm glad you mention danner pumps specifically, lets say you compare the dwc system I'm basing mine off of which runs an 1800 , 1200 and 700 danner fpr each group of 5 large tree bins with 10 bins total and two 100 gallon reservoirs. So that's a total of 2x 1800, 2x1200, 2x700, plus whatever heat is put into the water by the 80lpm pond air pump and the ambient temp of the room which is say around 85f.
( I can hear you laughing)

Some try to get by on 1/2hp chillers but everyone says get a 1hp.

Lets say you chop all that down and use a pair of Iwaki pumps (md70rlt) and insulate the hell out of everything, those pumps are still going to be moving some water, the water friction and resistance alone generates heat obviously no matter what, not counting what those pumps will put in, so will I really be lowering the size of chiller required and to what degree?

Also, given the right setup couldn't some of that water pressure and pump be used to turn the entire system into it's own low efficiency refrigerator using just water as the refrigerant as other systems do these days in other industries? Theoretically that is, if you could somehow work out the details of what that might require to switch water paths to turn it on or off or create the pressure needed, or what it might do to the nutrient solution.
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
Lets figure thw e watts total and condider the pumps at 60% efficient. ((2*145 watts) +(2*110 watts)+(2*70 watts)+150 watts))*0.40= 320 watts of thermal energy. 320 watts. A one hp power air reconditioner is 1200 btu. A goof chiller is more effiient than an air conditioner as water stores and transfers thermal energy more efficiently than air. However you rae dependent of the manafacturers ethiv cs in this area. they tend to arbitrarily assign cpacaities on the sixe of the compressor not the size or quality of the heat exchanger. Myself I would not bother cooling below the ambient room temperature but just keep the nutrients cooled to the ambient room temp. So really all you need worry about is the heat caused bp pump inefficiency. 40% is a more than sufficient figure. So in that case you only need a bit larger than a 1/4 HP chiller if it is supplied with an heat exchanger at least as effecient as a cheap window air conditioner. Your talking more than enough water movement for high DO throughtout the system.

My self though I would just buy three reeflo 3600 gph Snapper or the older Dart models pumps on eBay. Retail that is about $850 versus about $900 for the Fanner pumps. The will flow New sNappers or OldDarts will pump 3450 gallons each at 145 watts each. That means three of them would give you 10,350 gph at 435 watts total draw versus the 800 watts of the Danner pumps for 8600 gph of flow. The Reeflo are air cooled. Air conditioners are much chepaer than water chillers. I use quite a few of the Reeflos with my reef aquariums for large skimmers and for closed loop circulation in SPS coral tanks.
 
CAN MAN

CAN MAN

Member
pr0fesseur said:
50.26 Inches of surface area 9 on the hardness scale indestructible! put this in the bottom of your buckets gents! this thing makes so many bubbles in a 5 Gal bucket it raises the surface level drastically! The typical air stones dont put out air evenly like these puppies! Typical airstones only put out air bubbles in one spot this delivers air to thw whole of the bucket bottom.!!!
:bigjoint::weed:
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:clap:where did you get it. an how much an what size air pump did you use
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
The Mohs hardness scale is not a sign of indestructibility. it is simly a way of measuring hard meinerals ability r to scaratch a soft mimeral. ad far as its hradness being a 9. I highly doubt that as the scale only goes to 10 and a diamond is a 10. A few nines: Corundum, Carborundum,, Tungsten carbide, titanium carbide. 7.5 to 8: Hardened steel, Tungsten, emerald. Usually diffusers such as that are made of scintered glass or fused quartz. That means something like a 6 for a hardness. The diffuser would have to be a metal to be that hard and those metals would be too unaffordable for use in a simple growing reservoir. The glass or quartz would belisted as a hard substance but definitely not a 9.

Now lets llk at the fact you say it is 50.26 inches square. Area = pi * r^2. so (50.26/3.14)^0.5 = 4, so there fore 8 inches diameter. If you have a link to this diffuser post a link. I am quite curious. I am however not intersted in somthing that would have to be stolen from an employer to be affordable for use.
 
pr0fesseur

pr0fesseur

Well-Known Member
fatman7574 said:
The Mohs hardness scale is not a sign of indestructibility. it is simly a way of measuring hard meinerals ability r to scaratch a soft mimeral. ad far as its hradness being a 9. I highly doubt that as the scale only goes to 10 and a diamond is a 10. A few nines: Corundum, Carborundum,, Tungsten carbide, titanium carbide. 7.5 to 8: Hardened steel, Tungsten, emerald. Usually diffusers such as that are made of scintered glass or fused quartz. That means something like a 6 for a hardness. The diffuser would have to be a metal to be that hard and those metals would be too unaffordable for use in a simple growing reservoir. The glass or quartz would belisted as a hard substance but definitely not a 9.

Now lets llk at the fact you say it is 50.26 inches square. Area = pi * r^2. so (50.26/3.14)^0.5 = 4, so there fore 8 inches diameter. If you have a link to this diffuser post a link. I am quite curious. I am however not intersted in somthing that would have to be stolen from an employer to be affordable for use.
Click to expand...
If you read my previous post here i posted all the links
Actually adamantine spar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamantine_Spar which is a form of Corundum
https://www.rollitup.org/3962505-post8.html

heres where i got the 8" from
http://www.thebigtomato.com/catalog/activeaqua-air-stone-disc-new.htm
 
tea tree

tea tree

Well-Known Member
wtf, looks at this!











20 dollars for this and 60 for the best one. Damn. Sounds good. What about electrolysis machines. Someone has one and another memeber just built one. I cant fid the link to the shop I saw them at before. It was a hydro shop. I think they are very expensive tho, like a 1000 dollars. Pretty cool.
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
pr0fesseur said:
If you read my previous post here i posted all the links
Actually adamantine spar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamantine_Spar which is a form of Corundum
https://www.rollitup.org/3962505-post8.html

heres where i got the 8" from
http://www.thebigtomato.com/catalog/activeaqua-air-stone-disc-new.htm
Click to expand...
Oh yes professor I have every one of all your previous potsts you have ever put up in this forum memorized. NOT. You just gotta know I live by your every word and go back every night and read what you have previosuly posted otherwise I just can't sleep due to an over whelming fear that I am missing out on all that is important in mj growing. Give us all a break dude.

Nice! Is it also a brittle material. Many hard materials and most sintered materials are pretty brittle, as they are just barely bound to each other through light surface melting. Shouldn't make any difference during use but it would make a hugh difference in shipping and handling breakage.
 
pr0fesseur

pr0fesseur

Well-Known Member
fatman7574 said:
Oh yes professor I have every one of all your previous potsts you have ever put up in this forum memorized. NOT. You just gotta know I live by your every word and go back every night and read what you have previosuly posted otherwise I just can't sleep due to an over whelming fear that I am missing out on all that is important in mj growing. Give us all a break dude.

Whats with the flaming? I just stated that if you read the THIS WHOLE thread(not entire forums) post #8 to be exact, you would have seen the links i posted. I dont know bout you but this is a place to learn all i am doing is posting what i found how it works and my results/thoughts nothing more..Excuse me for trying to help others as ive helped them...I have agreed on all of your points because they are all true and were here to help others, NO?:wall:
Click to expand...
 
pr0fesseur

pr0fesseur

Well-Known Member
If you check out Alita here:
http://alita.com they have an amazing Silicone micro perforated tubing thats great for krusty buckets or even bubble cloners. it never closg and lasts almost forever..HERE:
http://alita.com/diffuser/siliconehose.php A quick note you will need a pretty heavy duty pump like the one fatman suggests Danner or Alita style with more than 2psi or 40l/min to see the real payoff on their tubing and diffusers. Here is a link for some air pumps free shipping too! http://www.azponds.com/new_webpages/New_air_pumps.html

 
B

brandavis

Member
Be careful with this diffuser hose. If your reservoir isn't at least three feet deep you won't get the tiny bubbles you are looking for since its made for deeper aquaculture applications. I've wasted about $120 trying to get it to work only to find out that you need about 3+ feet of water to create enough water pressure to get the real tiny bubbles. It's a nice product but make sure it will work for your application.
 
pr0fesseur

pr0fesseur

Well-Known Member
brandavis said:
Be careful with this diffuser hose. If your reservoir isn't at least three feet deep you won't get the tiny bubbles you are looking for since its made for deeper aquaculture applications. I've wasted about $120 trying to get it to work only to find out that you need about 3+ feet of water to create enough water pressure to get the real tiny bubbles. It's a nice product but make sure it will work for your application.
Click to expand...
You also need a high pressure pump as well.. the standard aquarium pumps wont work....
You must use a pond pump!! for the extra $$ it will be worth it! you can bubble as much hose as you can buy!
 
IntrepidTraveler420

IntrepidTraveler420

Member
As for liters/gals in res to watt/output of pump what seems to be the consensus?

I saw 1W per gal (.5W per gal unpreferably doable) mentioned at the beginning of this thread. I’m running a 6W pump for 4 8L-DWC’s = 6W for 32L or roughly 8 gals. or 15L a min output to 32L res… however you want to look at it. They are doing fine, but I have had some root rot and heat issues. Room temp peaks at 80 and that seems to be what my DWC units peak at too =( . Time to try some new insolation and pump placement. Did I read correctly that the pump must be set higher than your res water line to avoid flooding in case of pump malfunction?
 
UnderCurrentDWC

UnderCurrentDWC

Active Member
IntrepidTraveler420 said:
As for liters/gals in res to watt/output of pump what seems to be the consensus?

I saw 1W per gal (.5W per gal unpreferably doable) mentioned at the beginning of this thread. I’m running a 6W pump for 4 8L-DWC’s = 6W for 32L or roughly 8 gals. or 15L a min output to 32L res… however you want to look at it. They are doing fine, but I have had some root rot and heat issues. Room temp peaks at 80 and that seems to be what my DWC units peak at too =( . Time to try some new insolation and pump placement. Did I read correctly that the pump must be set higher than your res water line to avoid flooding in case of pump malfunction?
Click to expand...
I don't like to rate air flow by watts, all pumps perform differently so there energy efficiencies will be different as well. I calculate my air needs by Liters per minute or Gallons per hour. I recommend a minimum of 1lpm per gallon in a DWC system. I personally use 200lpm for 70 gallons in my flower room(Overkill), and 20lpm per 20 gallon tote in the veg and have beautiful roots.

Edit: No you do not need to have the air pump above the waterline if the tube feeding the air is above the waterline at some point.

Hope that helps.

Happy growing
UCDWC~
 
P

P007

Member
SO , just to bump this thing,


in the scenario where you're growing in the walk-in closet connected to your bedroom, is an ALITA style pump going to be too loud? I currently have two ECO-AIR 4's encased in a box filled with sound insulation going to 4 19L buckets with regular airstones.

I'm going to change things to TWO large rubbermaid containers to make things easier, but it should be roughly same volume of water I believe.

Pretty quiet, but I'd like to up the DO content, using some of the nice disk airstones. I know I need a better pump, but don't want to be sleeping to a bus-motor.


cheers
 
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