Beat Thermal Imaging
- Thread starter RickWhite
- Start date
smppro
Well-Known Member
here a video of them looking at a grow house and you see all they see, not much
http://forums.cannabisculture.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1414872
http://forums.cannabisculture.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1414872
doobnVA
Well-Known Member
I'm not saying the technology doesn't exist, but it certainly isn't what you're seeing in the aforementioned video or the photos above.
IR thermal imaging isn't capable of the kinds of the things you're talking about. There are devices that use microwaves to "see" people and other sources of heat through earth, stone, buildings, etc but these are *not* the thermal imaging devices in use by law enforcement, and they are NOT FLIR.
RickWhite
Well-Known Member
Actually it was the other posters that limited the discussion to FLIR. I'm talking about any and all existing technology that detects radiant heat. And even if the technology only detects a big spot on the roof from the heat of the bulb it's still the same outcome.
When they show pictures of big white spots on the roof or wall from a 1000W HID to a jury what do you think the outcome will be?
Fact is, guys get busted and convicted in part by thermal imaging. There is no denying this and that is all that matters.
TeaTreeOil
Well-Known Member
Yes, they probably do, but for none of the reasons you think or have stated.
The insulation of a house prevents roof/wall detection unless it's an obscene amount. No plants could survive the environmental conditions to produce such spots on walls or roofs.
RickWhite
Well-Known Member
So what if a guy has a wood burning stove? My friend uses one to heat his garage wich he uses more as a rec-room. And what about those of us with window AC units? What if your place has an old boiler system and certain parts of the house get too hot and need a window cracked?
Looking at hot air being vented simply isn't evidence of anything.
Looking at hot air being vented simply isn't evidence of anything.
bgmike8
Well-Known Member
they use the hot vents and the "anonymous source" ie. they lie. look up kopbusters by barry cooper. he claims that the cops busted a bait house by using the flir without a warrant.
basically if the cops know you are growing they can lie about a " anonymous informant" its a risk they will take. but usually they are correct and they raid a grow house. this is the way the police sidestep the constitution. anonymous sources should not be legitimate in this country.
riki>>> thermal imaging isnt being used to look in the house. on the video i believe it is warmer vents and what not that we see. there is some microwave technology that can do what you claim.
i just cant belive some of these warrants that are being issued. what the fuck does heat prove? you could be growing anything legal. so why waste time with a fly over? also, what if you use t-5's? then are they gonna fly over and say that the anonymous source is wrong? its all fucked up these days. the constitution is dying
its like gun rights, it was obviously important to list it in the 2nd fucking place out of ten. yet you have all these people that want to bann guns. what if they banned your right to free speech or religious worship because you are a convicted felon?
basically if the cops know you are growing they can lie about a " anonymous informant" its a risk they will take. but usually they are correct and they raid a grow house. this is the way the police sidestep the constitution. anonymous sources should not be legitimate in this country.
riki>>> thermal imaging isnt being used to look in the house. on the video i believe it is warmer vents and what not that we see. there is some microwave technology that can do what you claim.
i just cant belive some of these warrants that are being issued. what the fuck does heat prove? you could be growing anything legal. so why waste time with a fly over? also, what if you use t-5's? then are they gonna fly over and say that the anonymous source is wrong? its all fucked up these days. the constitution is dying
its like gun rights, it was obviously important to list it in the 2nd fucking place out of ten. yet you have all these people that want to bann guns. what if they banned your right to free speech or religious worship because you are a convicted felon?
doobnVA
Well-Known Member
Someone posted something on the other thread that I think you completely ignored in response to the wood stove. There was a story recently of a guy being "raided" because he was suspected of operating a grow house. They used thermal imaging to obtain the warrant for the raid because there was some "anomaly" on the thermal images. Guess what they found? A fuckin' wood stove! No grow house, just a guy with a wood stove in his garage. They saw the heat from the wood stove on their thermal imaging cameras and figured this guy had some crazy pot growing operation going on, when he really wasn't doing anything but burning some logs.
So, in other words, these clowns couldn't tell the difference between a wood stove (legitimate source of heat) and a bunch of powerful grow lights using common thermal imaging technology that's available to basically all law enforcement agencies. The SAME technology that you've been claiming can clearly see the "heat signatures" and identify growing operations.
Looking at hot air being vented CAN BE evidence of something, in conjunction with other things that are indicative of cannabis growing. For instance, you have a dryer vent on the south side of your home and another on the north side. The one on the north side is constantly venting hot air 24/7 and the one on the south side only comes on for an hour at a time like a normal dryer vent.
Or you have a suspicious looking vent coming out of the house on the second floor under an eave that vents constantly and that part of the house appears much warmer than the rest of the house.
When LEO see something that they feel is "suspicious", then they go poke around in your trash and see what they can observe going on at your home from the street (neither of which require a warrant). Are there bags of potting soil or other evidence of an "illegal marijuana factory" ? Could be evidence of tomato growing, but hopefully you get the point.
I think the problem is that you're *assuming* law enforcement needs some kind of concrete evidence in order to raid a suspected drug operation (or do anything else, like arrest someone) when in fact, they don't. All they really need is a "reasonable suspicion" that a crime is being or has been committed. This "reasonable suspicion" is easily fabricated using lots of circumstantial evidence that may or may not "reasonably" lead one to believe illegal activity is taking place. Unfortunately for all of us, it seems those who are in positions of power when it comes to enforcing the laws of our land are severely lacking in the "reason" department. This is why our police officers are raiding grandma's house and shooting her dead in botched drug raids.
smppro
Well-Known Member
Yeah it isnt fair but they dont have to know what they are looking at through thermal imaging, just a theory, havent you guys seen the IR video of the cops busting another cops house because she had bad insulation in her attic.until i find it heres an article on thermal imaginf by a cop,
Structure Profiles with a Thermal Imager
Looking for indoor marijuana grows
(http://www.officer.com/online/artic...ion=20&id=38502) (LE affiliated)
Updated: October 24th, 2007 03:14 AM EDT
JONATHAN BASTIAN
Thermal Imaging Contributor
Officer.com
Believe it or not, the structure profile is probably the oldest and most common law enforcement application for a handheld thermal imager. It is also the most challenging application, due to a questionable Supreme Court ruling. However, the general notion is that you can use a thermal imager to help identify the presence of an indoor marijuana grow.
The Indoor Challenge
Growing plants indoors is not new, nor difficult. By bringing the soil inside (in a planter), regularly watering the plant, and allowing natural sunlight into the room, you can grow almost anything inside. The problem with growing marijuana inside, however, is that it's illegal (it's illegal outdoors too, but you get the point). And growers are greedy. Since it is illegal, they cannot grow plants near windows. Since they are greedy, they are not happy with just four or five plants.
Therein lays the pot grower's conundrum. He needs light, but cannot use natural light. Therefore, he has to use artificial light that simulates sunlight. Besides the tremendous amount of electricity this requires, it generates an overwhelming amount of heat. This is problematic for the grower, as marijuana does not grow well in hot environments.
So, the pot grower has to vent this excess heat somewhere outside the pot growing room. The greedier he is, the more plants he grows. The more plants he grows, the more lights he needs. The more lights he needs, the more heat he generates. The more heat he has, the more he has to vent. And, since the thermal imager sees heat...it can be a great tool to locate abnormal heat signatures on and around buildings.
By comparing a suspect structure to similar structures, you might see unusual heat build-up that indicates a grow room. Or, you might see strange heat patterns indicating the location and direction of vents. Either way, it can be another indicator in your investigation that the suspect is indeed growing marijuana.
Restrictions
Up until 2001, police officers could use a thermal imager to scan any home, farm, office, shed or other structure at their whim. Obviously, good police work dictates building sufficient probable cause to get an arrest or search warrant. Not only is it unethical, but it would also be a waste of time and effort to scan homes and buildings at random, just hoping to find odd heat patterns. As an investigator, you need to put in the time and effort to do things the proper way. The TI is not a shortcut to a good investigation; it's just a tool to help generate another piece of evidence.
That said, 2001 changed the thermal imaging landscape in the US. Erroneously stating that thermal imaging was a technology not available to the general public, and concerned that some unknown future technology might make it possible to see the intimate details of private life within the confines of a home's four walls, the Supreme Court banned a current technology that does not reveal the intimate details within a home.
Catch that? Yep, worried about something that does not yet exist that could see into a home, the justices decided to restrict a technology that does exist but does not see into a home. So, courtesy of Kyllo v. U.S., police officers must now obtain a search warrant prior to performing a thermal scan of a private dwelling. Notice, the Kyllo decision applies only to private dwellings, where the expectation of privacy is highest.
Now, some jurisdictions have required thermal search warrants for years. Some may now stretch the Kyllo decision to include businesses, outbuildings and the like. But as far as the U.S. Supreme Court cares, the warrant restriction applies only to scans of dwellings.
Ethical Use on Structures
As mentioned above, randomly scanning buildings to find a suspicious heat signature is wrong and a waste of resources. But once you have initiated a proper investigation into a suspect building, the TI can be part of the evidence you collect to prove your case.
Prior to scanning the suspect building, be sure you have your local prosecutors on board. Show them the technology; have them give their interpretation of the Kyllo decision. Demonstrate how the TI can help you gain additional evidence against the suspect without ever intruding into his personal space, or even stepping foot on his property.
Before you take the TI to the street on your first investigation, get formal training. One online article cannot even come close to giving you all the fundamentals necessary to legally and ethically perform a thermal scan of a structure. The Law Enforcement Thermographers' Association is the primary law enforcement trainer for TI use. Yes, I instruct for them. Yes, it's a plug. But, the reality is that if you plan to build indoor grow cases with a thermal imager, you need to be prepared for court. The LETA training is the only way I know to be certified and be ready.
Like every other thermal imaging application, the TI is not the silver bullet or ultimate tool. It is just one more tool in the toolbox that can help officers build a better case. Properly used, the TI can generate additional evidence to help secure the final search warrant, allowing you to go in and seize a lot of marijuana...and put a pot grower out of business.
(end story)
Jonathan Bastian is a police officer in Lexington, Kentucky. He works part time with Bullard as a Thermal Imaging Specialist and is certified through the Law Enforcement Thermographers Association (LETA) as a thermal imaging instructor. Jonathan has written dozens of articles and one book on the use of thermal imagers in public safety functions. He has over 15 years experience in public safety as a firefighter, EMT and police officer.
Structure Profiles with a Thermal Imager
Looking for indoor marijuana grows
(http://www.officer.com/online/artic...ion=20&id=38502) (LE affiliated)
Updated: October 24th, 2007 03:14 AM EDT
JONATHAN BASTIAN
Thermal Imaging Contributor
Officer.com
Believe it or not, the structure profile is probably the oldest and most common law enforcement application for a handheld thermal imager. It is also the most challenging application, due to a questionable Supreme Court ruling. However, the general notion is that you can use a thermal imager to help identify the presence of an indoor marijuana grow.
The Indoor Challenge
Growing plants indoors is not new, nor difficult. By bringing the soil inside (in a planter), regularly watering the plant, and allowing natural sunlight into the room, you can grow almost anything inside. The problem with growing marijuana inside, however, is that it's illegal (it's illegal outdoors too, but you get the point). And growers are greedy. Since it is illegal, they cannot grow plants near windows. Since they are greedy, they are not happy with just four or five plants.
Therein lays the pot grower's conundrum. He needs light, but cannot use natural light. Therefore, he has to use artificial light that simulates sunlight. Besides the tremendous amount of electricity this requires, it generates an overwhelming amount of heat. This is problematic for the grower, as marijuana does not grow well in hot environments.
So, the pot grower has to vent this excess heat somewhere outside the pot growing room. The greedier he is, the more plants he grows. The more plants he grows, the more lights he needs. The more lights he needs, the more heat he generates. The more heat he has, the more he has to vent. And, since the thermal imager sees heat...it can be a great tool to locate abnormal heat signatures on and around buildings.
By comparing a suspect structure to similar structures, you might see unusual heat build-up that indicates a grow room. Or, you might see strange heat patterns indicating the location and direction of vents. Either way, it can be another indicator in your investigation that the suspect is indeed growing marijuana.
Restrictions
Up until 2001, police officers could use a thermal imager to scan any home, farm, office, shed or other structure at their whim. Obviously, good police work dictates building sufficient probable cause to get an arrest or search warrant. Not only is it unethical, but it would also be a waste of time and effort to scan homes and buildings at random, just hoping to find odd heat patterns. As an investigator, you need to put in the time and effort to do things the proper way. The TI is not a shortcut to a good investigation; it's just a tool to help generate another piece of evidence.
That said, 2001 changed the thermal imaging landscape in the US. Erroneously stating that thermal imaging was a technology not available to the general public, and concerned that some unknown future technology might make it possible to see the intimate details of private life within the confines of a home's four walls, the Supreme Court banned a current technology that does not reveal the intimate details within a home.
Catch that? Yep, worried about something that does not yet exist that could see into a home, the justices decided to restrict a technology that does exist but does not see into a home. So, courtesy of Kyllo v. U.S., police officers must now obtain a search warrant prior to performing a thermal scan of a private dwelling. Notice, the Kyllo decision applies only to private dwellings, where the expectation of privacy is highest.
Now, some jurisdictions have required thermal search warrants for years. Some may now stretch the Kyllo decision to include businesses, outbuildings and the like. But as far as the U.S. Supreme Court cares, the warrant restriction applies only to scans of dwellings.
Ethical Use on Structures
As mentioned above, randomly scanning buildings to find a suspicious heat signature is wrong and a waste of resources. But once you have initiated a proper investigation into a suspect building, the TI can be part of the evidence you collect to prove your case.
Prior to scanning the suspect building, be sure you have your local prosecutors on board. Show them the technology; have them give their interpretation of the Kyllo decision. Demonstrate how the TI can help you gain additional evidence against the suspect without ever intruding into his personal space, or even stepping foot on his property.
Before you take the TI to the street on your first investigation, get formal training. One online article cannot even come close to giving you all the fundamentals necessary to legally and ethically perform a thermal scan of a structure. The Law Enforcement Thermographers' Association is the primary law enforcement trainer for TI use. Yes, I instruct for them. Yes, it's a plug. But, the reality is that if you plan to build indoor grow cases with a thermal imager, you need to be prepared for court. The LETA training is the only way I know to be certified and be ready.
Like every other thermal imaging application, the TI is not the silver bullet or ultimate tool. It is just one more tool in the toolbox that can help officers build a better case. Properly used, the TI can generate additional evidence to help secure the final search warrant, allowing you to go in and seize a lot of marijuana...and put a pot grower out of business.
(end story)
Jonathan Bastian is a police officer in Lexington, Kentucky. He works part time with Bullard as a Thermal Imaging Specialist and is certified through the Law Enforcement Thermographers Association (LETA) as a thermal imaging instructor. Jonathan has written dozens of articles and one book on the use of thermal imagers in public safety functions. He has over 15 years experience in public safety as a firefighter, EMT and police officer.
smppro
Well-Known Member
here ya go cant find video yet though
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2474184/Poor-insulation-led-to-drugs-raid-on-police-officers-home.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2474184/Poor-insulation-led-to-drugs-raid-on-police-officers-home.html
hater hurter
Active Member
keep it small and use every room and the heat will come out all the vents, problem solved! lol
lazyblazer67
Active Member
Did anyone else read the details of the video where the one vent in the house was hot. The found 30 POUNDS and 41 plants. Now it doesnt say how many plants were in flower but im going to guess at least half of them were or maybe even all of them. If they already had 30 lbs in the house ready to sell, im assuming its a pretty big grow. Unless you think they only have a 250w in there and they save up their buds for a long time. If you keep your grow to a reasonable size (like 3k and under) you should be just fine. It is also a Federal law to have a warrant before you can observe any private property with TI. So the cops would already have to have a reason to be checking your place out anyway and they use the TI as extra evidence. Cops dont just fly around in helicopters randomly spoting houses with heat coming out of it. So it all comes down to being smart with your grow. DON'T tell anyone, use proper odor control, and be smart about where you vent your air.
blueberry2012
Member
ok not going to argue with anyone, see it for yourself uk power company's & police useing helicopters to find grow http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRbBu8nkjRk
New technology cops use a helicopter to spot marijuana grow rooms.. This is not F.L.I.R. because FLIR only works good at night. This new technology gives the cops the benefit of spotting grow ops during the daytime.. In America this is against the law, and cops need a warrant to "spy" on your house...
JustCoasting
Well-Known Member
FLIR's cannot see through glass because they only "see" the temperature of the glass. A true FLIR can only "see" heat waves.
mindphuk
Well-Known Member
That's FLIR they are using, not some new unnamed technology. FLIR works in the daytime just fine.
blueberry2012
Member
you clearly have not watched the vid link, that vid was on uk tv made by the bbc not some fools & i dont care what its called its worrying & that 1 vid gives a better insight that all the pages of rants on here