Basic breeding question.

GOLDBERG71 · Mar 8, 2015

This last strain I came across a pheno that I really like. The strain is a cross and I have already run a pack of one side of the cross and found my keeper. Let's say this strain is A x B since strain shouldn't matter for these purposes. The features that really caught my eye are coming from B because I've alread run A myself. If I want to bring out as much of B as I can. Which is better. Inline breeding AxB for the most B. Or would it be better to work 2 different lines say AxB for the B which I have just found. And crossing that with say another strain that is let's say CxB and selecting again for B. Then creating and F1 between the 2 and selecting for B and then inline breeding from that point on?

I only ask because I've never grown nor smoked a straight up B! So although I like what I have. I also know that I don't know what traits I'm missing. That lead me to think if I crossed this with a strain with the same parent or genes it might make it more likely to come across those traits that this cross isn't expressing. Maybe I'm over thinking this?

GOLDBERG71 · Mar 8, 2015

I guess I should say I plan on making fem seeds. I said I've never bred but I have made pollen from all my keepers. So making female pollen I have understanding of. Most of all this takes learning about males out of my equation and I will know exactly how each would express themselves before I would choose to make the cross.

Farmer's Hat · Mar 11, 2015

I would cross your AxB keeper, with another strain that is clearly showing a lot of recessive genes. Its the best way to preserve the phenotypes you like.

If you inbreed your AxB keeper, it could go both ways. You might suppress the phenos you like, or you could get some plants that exhibit mostly B traits. The main thing to consider is that you will have to grow out around 40_50 plants before you find the phenos you are looking for.

nomofatum · Mar 13, 2015

(AxB)xB

bf80255 · Mar 16, 2015

GOLDBERG71 said:
This last strain I came across a pheno that I really like. The strain is a cross and I have already run a pack of one side of the cross and found my keeper. Let's say this strain is A x B since strain shouldn't matter for these purposes. The features that really caught my eye are coming from B because I've alread run A myself. If I want to bring out as much of B as I can. Which is better. Inline breeding AxB for the most B. Or would it be better to work 2 different lines say AxB for the B which I have just found. And crossing that with say another strain that is let's say CxB and selecting again for B. Then creating and F1 between the 2 and selecting for B and then inline breeding from that point on?

I only ask because I've never grown nor smoked a straight up B! So although I like what I have. I also know that I don't know what traits I'm missing. That lead me to think if I crossed this with a strain with the same parent or genes it might make it more likely to come across those traits that this cross isn't expressing. Maybe I'm over thinking this?

why would you want to breed in traits that you dont even know about when you have a strain that you do know the traits of? the best course of action would probably be crossing an A X B and then taking some F1 progeny and pushing through to the F2, if you make enough F2 beans youll be able to find what your looking for im sure but itll take a lot of seeds and time.

GOLDBERG71 · Mar 17, 2015

Farmer's Hat said:
I would cross your AxB keeper, with another strain that is clearly showing a lot of recessive genes. Its the best way to preserve the phenotypes you like.

If you inbreed your AxB keeper, it could go both ways. You might suppress the phenos you like, or you could get some plants that exhibit mostly B traits. The main thing to consider is that you will have to grow out around 40_50 plants before you find the phenos you are looking for.

Ok here's my issue. My A+B keeper is La Niña. I've run Black Widow. The characteristics that have caught my attention must be coming from the mullumbimby madness side. I can't find a reputable MM to cross with. So I'm trying to figure a way to pull out these characteristics. I have about 110 La Niña beans to work with. I have afghan haze that sounds similar. Shanti describes his MM in La Niña as Thai/Colombian but acknowledges others call it MM. IN the afghan haze it describes the haze as Thai/Colombian. That's the closest I have that MIGHT be MM? When I posted this I was looking at a bogus site claiming to sell Neville seeds with a nev haze MM cross. That was what I was thinking about when I posted this. Any info helps.

GOLDBERG71 · Mar 17, 2015

nomofatum said:
(AxB)xB

I wish it were that easy B is mullumbimny madness.

GOLDBERG71 · Mar 17, 2015

bf80255 said:
why would you want to breed in traits that you dont even know about when you have a strain that you do know the traits of? the best course of action would probably be crossing an A X B and then taking some F1 progeny and pushing through to the F2, if you make enough F2 beans youll be able to find what your looking for im sure but itll take a lot of seeds and time.

Because La Niña is Black widow x mullumbimby madness. I've grown black widow. The characteristics that have my attention didn't come from the BW. When I posted this I thought I found a nev haze x MM. Since I couldn't find a straight up MM I started thinking about breeding. So I posted this for help. I've since learned the site with the nev haze x MM was a bogus site. So now I don't know what I can do? I guess I'll have to pop some LN seeds and see if I can find something close to the one I have? Or selfing the one I have?

bf80255 · Mar 17, 2015

GOLDBERG71 said:
Because La Niña is Black widow x mullumbimby madness. I've grown black widow. The characteristics that have my attention didn't come from the BW. When I posted this I thought I found a nev haze x MM. Since I couldn't find a straight up MM I started thinking about breeding. So I posted this for help. I've since learned the site with the nev haze x MM was a bogus site. So now I don't know what I can do? I guess I'll have to pop some LN seeds and see if I can find something close to the one I have? Or selfing the one I have?

you may have grown black widow but if La Nina was made like most strain with 2 P1 plants (a male and female) you probably didnt grow the cut or pheno that the P1 was selected for. wow so what are they if the sights bogus? bagseed?

if you really like that plant why not pop seeds and also self her?

GOLDBERG71 · Mar 17, 2015

bf80255 said:
you may have grown black widow but if La Nina was made like most strain with 2 P1 plants (a male and female) you probably didnt grow the cut or pheno that the P1 was selected for. wow so what are they if the sights bogus? bagseed?

if you really like that plant why not pop seeds and also self her?

Well I am going to self. I just haven't had much time to read about breeding. But I know when plants are crossed it expresses from both parent. I thought when posted I found a cross. So since BW didn't over impress me I was surprised when I tested the La Niña. The haze pheno really impressed. Since I know this cross couldn't show all MM. Then I started wondering if it could be better with less BW and how to accomplish that. So in searching the web I could only find 1 site old school breeders association. So I started a thread and got no replies. Then I asked about the strain. Seeds by Neville cross Nev Haze x MM. Then I wondered if crossing these 2 strains might be the best way to pull out more MM. I can't say it will be better but if it can improve BW to my taste Im really interested in tasting straight up and since there is no way for me to know what a true MM is. My thinking was by crossing I'd have the best chance of figuring it out. I started thinking about crossing my favorite strains just to get some sort of surprise. I grew the La Niña for a friend. So after tasting it I though well if I'm going to breed why not have a goal. Rather than just picking my 2 best and crossing. Why not cross to remove the BW from my LN? Maybe it's a dumb idea? But that's why I started this thread because if I'm going to try it I might as well do it with a goal in mind id like to start with the best chance for success.
I have no idea what they are selling. But they also say they sell reeferman seeds. But if you go to reefer mans website they list distributors with genuine genetics and warns of other sites not selling real seeds. And old school isn't on the list. I also haven't seen Neville selling seeds yet. But that brings me to my final point. If this site were real I thought nevilles MM cross would be the same as MNS Lanina.

bf80255 · Mar 17, 2015

GOLDBERG71 said:
Well I am going to self. I just haven't had much time to read about breeding. But I know when plants are crossed it expresses from both parent. I thought when posted I found a cross. So since BW didn't over impress me I was surprised when I tested the La Niña. The haze pheno really impressed. Since I know this cross couldn't show all MM. Then I started wondering if it could be better with less BW and how to accomplish that. So in searching the web I could only find 1 site old school breeders association. So I started a thread and got no replies. Then I asked about the strain. Seeds by Neville cross Nev Haze x MM. Then I wondered if crossing these 2 strains might be the best way to pull out more MM. I can't say it will be better but if it can improve BW to my taste Im really interested in tasting straight up and since there is no way for me to know what a true MM is. My thinking was by crossing I'd have the best chance of figuring it out. I started thinking about crossing my favorite strains just to get some sort of surprise. I grew the La Niña for a friend. So after tasting it I though well if I'm going to breed why not have a goal. Rather than just picking my 2 best and crossing. Why not cross to remove the BW from my LN? Maybe it's a dumb idea? But that's why I started this thread because if I'm going to try it I might as well do it with a goal in mind id like to start with the best chance for success.
I have no idea what they are selling. But they also say they sell reeferman seeds. But if you go to reefer mans website they list distributors with genuine genetics and warns of other sites not selling real seeds. And old school isn't on the list. I also haven't seen Neville selling seeds yet. But that brings me to my final point. If this site were real I thought nevilles MM cross would be the same as MNS Lanina.

kinda confusing, in breeding your not going to be able to just completely segregate genes and the traits that go along with them to make pure lines if thats what your saying. your better off just breeding and selecting for the ons that taste and smell like what your looking for for a few generations.... or just buying pure versions of those strains.

Sativied · Mar 17, 2015

bf80255 said:
kinda confusing, in breeding your not going to be able to just completely segregate genes and the traits that go along with them to make pure lines if thats what your saying.

Indeed, and even when he does succeed to an extend, it's likely going to come at a cost too from breeding out genes from both parents.

If I understand the goal correctly, the easiest and obvious way to go is backcross that cross to the parent you want to be represented more.

GOLDBERG71 · Mar 17, 2015

Sativied said:
Indeed, and even when he does succeed to an extend, it's likely going to come at a cost too from breeding out genes from both parents.

If I understand the goal correctly, the easiest and obvious way to go is backcross that cross to the parent you want to be represented more.

Oh yes I know what you mean. I wouldn't think anything like pure line. I don't believe back crossing even changes the % of lineage. (BX a 50/50 cross will always be 50/50 right?) But the selection would eventually increase the odds for the traits I chose for. Which is why I was asking originally I thought I at least had a lead on a different cross. Which would have left me 2 choices. Selective in line breeding for those traits. Or finding the MM haze pheno of each strain and starting from a cross of those 2. The benefit I was thinking this would get me is I'd have 3 sets of genes. My thought process was that the linage would then be in this case 25% Nev Haze 25% Black Widow AND 50% MULL MAD. Leading to more phenos leaning dominant MM and the 25% Nev Haze should help pull out haze phenos also? Because if I could order pure MULL MAD I would start there. But that seems impossible I can't even find a cross. I know I'm no professor and probably not saying this as clearly as I'd like to be.

Without find a different cross this is impossible. The only reason I'm still asking is because I might as well use this as a point to learn from. So I can correct my thinking if it's flawed. Because I'm going to start making my own beans. Id just like to do it as wisely as I can.

GOLDBERG71 · Mar 18, 2015

bf80255 said:
kinda confusing, in breeding your not going to be able to just completely segregate genes and the traits that go along with them to make pure lines if thats what your saying. your better off just breeding and selecting for the ons that taste and smell like what your looking for for a few generations.... or just buying pure versions of those strains.

I know it's confusing and speculative. I guess that goes with rare or mystical strains as some call them. Since I want to breed after finding this pheno in a cross with mull madness I though a pure sativa pheno was a great place to start especially since I can't find a reputable pure MM or even a cross. At least the time and effort would be going towards something I can't purchase. If I could buy it I'd prefer someone reputable did the selecting and pungency tests.
I also can't use a 20 foot tall plant with a one foot trunk. Which a pure MM Tends to be. But the MM shanti crossed with BW was the short pheno. I do know I can fit the La Niña with no problem.

GOLDBERG71 · Mar 18, 2015

I won an auction of a 100 more La Niña. So I guess at this point I'll wait for them to arrive. Then I guess I'll start popping them in groups of 20 or so. And see what other haze phenos I can find. Then go from there. At this point maybe the best I can do is search the La Niña beans for any and all haze phenos to make sure I start with the best. Since I know 2 females isn't much to select from maybe there is more than 1 haze pheno?

Sativied · Mar 18, 2015

GOLDBERG71 said:
I don't believe back crossing even changes the % of lineage. (BX a 50/50 cross will always be 50/50 right?) B

It does if you cross back to one of the original parents. For example, if you got 50NHBW/50MM and cross that back to MM you get 25%NHBW/75%. If you cross those back to the same MM again you get 12%NHBW/87.5%MM. And so on:

Depending on whether the desired traits of the NH and BW are recessive or dominant that is a feasibly way to move more towards MM while retaining the best features (well, their genes) from the NH and BW. See this thread for more extensive examples: https://www.rollitup.org/t/backcrossing-your-own-variety.840329/

skunkwreck · Mar 18, 2015

Sativied said:
It does if you cross back to one of the original parents. For example, if you got 50NHBW/50MM and cross that back to MM you get 25%NHBW/75%. If you cross those back to the same MM again you get 12%NHBW/87.5%MM. And so on:
View attachment 3375079
Depending on whether the desired traits of the NH and BW are recessive or dominant that is a feasibly way to move more towards MM while retaining the best features (well, their genes) from the NH and BW. See this thread for more extensive examples: https://www.rollitup.org/t/backcrossing-your-own-variety.840329/

Sweet I've wondered about BX's before and you just answered a couple questions for me...thanks

Mohican · Mar 18, 2015

Since MM is Thai and Colombian, you could use a Columbian or Thai to cross with and see if that brings back the desired traits.

I am using a landrace sativa (Mulanje Gold) to cross with several clone only strains and getting some very good results. The one I crossed with blue dream has blue tinted buds

Cheers,
Mo

skunkwreck · Mar 18, 2015

Mohican said:
Since MM is Thai and Colombian, you could use a Columbian or Thai to cross with and see if that brings back the desired traits.

I am using a landrace sativa (Mulanje Gold) to cross with several clone only strains and getting some very good results. The one I crossed with blue dream has blue tinted buds

Cheers,
Mo

That's nice Mo !

bf80255 · Mar 18, 2015

Mohican said:
Since MM is Thai and Colombian, you could use a Columbian or Thai to cross with and see if that brings back the desired traits.

I am using a landrace sativa (Mulanje Gold) to cross with several clone only strains and getting some very good results. The one I crossed with blue dream has blue tinted buds

Cheers,
Mo

This is where you find new stuff! landraces!
great breeding mohican.

Basic breeding question.

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