Astir Grow Led Panel Project...

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
I'm making a simple(?!) spreadsheet ,for some led measurements regarding Power/radiation angle/distance from canopy...
One just enters those three values(on the 'salmon' colored areas of the spreadsheet) and everything else is calculated.....
Just these three parameters ....


It's not the easiest thing in the world,though...

As one has to deal with equations like :

E[SUB]θ[/SUB]=(I[SUB]o[/SUB]/d2) *[ 1-(((g+2)/4)*(r/d)[SUP]2[/SUP])] ....or.... g=1+Ln(.5)/Ln(cos (θ/2))[SUP]2[/SUP].....
Anyway....

Here are some results about one led with 400mW output flux,covering the same area on all three cases...
With different lens angles...120° ,60° & 30°.....

120°
400mW ,120°,0,2m above canopy.jpggraph 120 angle.jpg

- 20cm distance from canopy.
- 0.38 m^2 coverage
- 5 Watt/m[SUP]2[/SUP],on a radius of approx 0.35 m (half angle of 60°)

60°
calc  60 angle.jpggraph 60.jpg

- 60cm Distance from canopy.
- 0.38 m^2 coverage
- 0.56 Watt/m[SUP]2[/SUP],on a radius of approx 0.35 m (half angle of 30°)

30°

calc 30.jpggraph 30.jpg

- 1.3 Distance from canopy.
- 0.38 m^2 coverage
- 0.12 Watt/m^2,on a radius of approx 0.35 m (half angle of 15°)
 

tolakra

Member
Nice,
and how far do you believe that a spot of a plant gets fair amount of light for efficient growing-flowering?
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
I am predisposed to SDS's theories(?) on low watt leds as I bought a ufo 90 some 3 years ago (R:B 9:1) Where it failed as a solo grow light , it works fine when supplemented. I bought a 4 bulb el cheapo vanity fixture and was using a variety of cfls, and got pretty decent result.

Also, I have followed white diodes and have agreed with those who espouse them. Now armed with SDS's info, I bought a ~ 3w ww led bulb (nude- no globe/lenses), later I added a 7.5w daylight (more cool than neutral), but with a globe.
Sort of DIY without soldering.

These I am using with one 23w ww cfl + the ufo (~ 50w total) and all I can say is WOW, the 2 runts out of 8 seeds have taken off in the last week, exceeding the daily growth of my T5s . Probably ~ 20%+ since this photo 4 days ago. The spectral balance of the T5s was too blue. Corrected 3 days ago, over night they had a nice growth spurt. It took about 3 days with my UFO/led combo to take off, too.


While searching Youtube, I came across a video of a screw in bulb that has a screw o/o globe. Went to the site - chinabuye.com where I found a wide kelvin variety of 3-5w nude bulbs. I ordered 2 each of 3 different K ranges + a rechargeable led desk lamp which should be perfect for keyboard lighting + some other goodies. Total was $62 + free shipping!

FYI I paid $15 for the 7.5w CWs from Lowes on a mark down from $20. At this stage of the game screw in bulbs are perfect for me.
I just need a few more vanity fixtures.

Pic 1 & 2 are the 2 runts. Pic 3 (second strongest when transferred & 4 (strongest when transferred) are both under my HO T5 using aquarium bulbs which simulate cw/nw/ww

SDS: Question. I have one 660 HO bulb + one Wave Point Coral Wave. I understand they should be used together, but when? Onset of flower... mid-flower... last 3-4 weeks?
 

Attachments

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Nice,
and how far do you believe that a spot of a plant gets fair amount of light for efficient growing-flowering?
They are not supposed to be in a distance from canopy more than 30 cm ( 1 ' ).After that they loose much light power...
Thats why ,the use of multiple panels....
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
@PetFlora...
Pretty much you know my opinion for 660 nm light..
But!
From what I can see from my sick lady...

She matured VERY FAST....

Probably ,Warm whites ,emit plenty of far light ...
(Either for plants,generally ; or my lady was specially affected, by it....or..."Early finisher" specimen...)
So...
Nothing is for sure...

All you have to do is try...
I wish I knew...

But,we are,all, still in a " learning phase",concerning growing with leds...
Both from our successes and failures...

You don't have anything to loose ,trying...
Only to gain...
...
Either big buds...
...
Or either,one more bit of knowledge ,about how to "grow 'n ' harvest " 'em...


Beautiful plants,BTW....
Thumbs up !
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Thanks SDS!

Last grow, my first experimenting with aquarium bulbs, I was flipping bulbs in/out often- total of 8 @ 4ft. I used one Coral Wave throughout veg and into flower. Spectral graph; http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/catalog/product/gallery/id/9246/image/15978/

In mid-flower I replaced the CW with the 660. The plants would not finish and tric production was not near what I expected (exc smoke though).

Knowing what I know now, thanks to you taking me to another level of awareness, I can see either to use both together, or not at all
. The question is when? they are all one month old (from seed); thinking to wait 2-4 weeks then add these bulbs

Here's a few pre-harvest shots from that grow. FYI, I had a nasty aphid issue and was cutting primary leaves like crazy. The salvation was my hydro methods, which feed the plants many times each day, no doubt making up for the lost stored leaf energy


 

Attachments

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
".....I can see either to use both together, or not at all. The question is when? they are all one month old (from seed); thinking to wait 2-4 weeks then add these bulbs...."


I have to say,that you've got the point about the 660-730 issue...
Can't & shouldn't be used solely either of them...

660 "says" to the plant (through Pr=>Pfr) : "Oh! Do not flower! " .."Oh! The sun is plenty! " ....
but 730 "says" (through Pfr=>Pr) : " Oh ! Flower fast! Really fast !"...

So the equilibrium here,is pretty ambiguous...

So,I prefer to solve the "quiz" with the use of the "golden mix" ..
That is Neutral whites (6500°-4500° K )with Warm Whites(3500°-2500° K )....( Maybe 1:2 ? )...

As for the Coral Wave ...
Seems that,it can be quite of "oxidative" light...(peak at 420 nm)
..
Not that usefull for P ,but probably 99% ,more trichomes & terpenes....
That means "quality"..(potency,aroma,taste....)
So,pretty usefull for the entire growth cycle...
(The plant has to 'learn' to 'live' with it from seedling...Start biosynthesize anti-oxidants from 'young age'...Be aware of the pungent smell...)
....
Keep up the good work....
Even ,with aphids,you still got decent bud(s)......

Moreover...

I consider the early stages of a plant's life ,to be very crucial...
The enviro's 'pressures' will define ,in great degree,most of the pheno of the plant...

I got my lesson with my current lady...

I vegged her under x 4 of these :

s.jpgstupid mix.jpg


19 Watt each,with a spectrum of :
x6 Cool Whites...
x2 Warm Whites...
x2 Violet 380-410 nm ( Edison )...
x4 Reds 650-670 nm ...(with white arrows...)
x10 630 (620-640 nm ) leds...

TOTAL DISASTER!!!

She was giving me the impression ,that she was under a desert sun...
Thick ,small,
scorched and few leaves...
Short 'stature' with few nodes...
...
She entered reproductive stage (flowering) with a mere height of 15 cm !! (U.Ben's topped) ..
But when the " white light" 'hit' her...A miracle happened!!!
( But it was too late ,already...)...

As for the drivers I use ...
Crap!
(-Thank God,they are crappy...-)
1 out of 10 ,it gets toasted,if UNDER-DRIVEN !!!
But they just cost under 10$....
http://www.satisled.com/constant-current-driver-for-30pcs-1w-high-power-led-20301w-driver-waterproof_p560.html

Noway,one can fix 'em...
They are epoxy-dipped...

The driver power box was / is not so good idea,after all...
Drivers get too hot ...

Edit / P.S. : 1st day of flowering for the " 400 W HPS GP vs 132 W crap_whity_white_with_a_touch_of _red _630 " led ,group...
(in hybrid aerohydro buckets with same tank all of them Led+HPS.....)
....

led green.jpgunder of led power.jpg400 W greenpower hps vs 132 Watt crap leds.jpggroup WR 2 vegging.jpg

Nice,uh ?

What is better ?
To have one single 400 Watt HPS....
Or to have 400 pcs of small HPSs' ,of 1 Watt each ?

There is a HUGE difference ......

Those 120 Watt approx .of light flux ,get totally different disturbuted...

Leds already have this ability...

Trying to make them ,a single point ,light source ,can be characterised , at least foolish...

So...
.............................................
Or the whole 'concept-idea',to put lenses to leds...
...
Ok ,yes ,one can take the already high,radiance (how much light is emitted from a surface ),of leds to super high values....
Same as of many burning lasers !
(250mW Violet 405 nm..From BL recorders....Little gold plated sh!ts....Diodes,as well ...)
(Same goes for irradiance..How much light a surface gets...)
But....
You what gain (? ) in power ,you loose on irradiated area...
You "send" the light ,further.....
By increasing radiance ( how much light is irradiated,from a certain area,
within a cone of 1 steradian. R=W/m^2/sr..so you lower the surface ,the radiance goes high...),
the light stays ,relatively -to distance-powerful,with small losses in flux,for a greater distance....
But ...Its "spotty"...
Difficult for light cone bases to overlap ,in small distances from canopy...
Too much power,may surpass the L.Compes.Point..May ,"whitening",will occur...
"Bleaching"...
Decreased surface area,irradiated(with a higher irradiance value though..)
So...
With really good leds like the branded ones ,without added lenses,at a 1 Watt die,(or 2 dies x 1 Watt...),a small group of them ,in multiple panels....

The smaller the better..In,fact....

The ideal would have been each led ,in different position,illuminating the plant canopy...
All over it...
Plants...C3 plants...Do not need great power to grow...
And they have low responces on light differences...
(evolution to survive under canopies of own or other plants,cloudy days in a series,ect..)
All they need to thrive and blossom ,is coverage...
Light all over...

. ..... Bad languaged ,green lady : .....

"Hey,you,two-legged mothafuck@ !
Why do you think I have many leaves and use the older ones to store energy in them ?
'Cause I have or like to have plenty of light ,where I'm ....'set' ?
Uh ? ..."

....
" Even " light,everywhere...
Like..."out there"
.....
Not necessary very strong..
Or, if strong ,better .." arranged "...More panels,instead of one...


Some renown companys have utilised this method ,with long "stripes" or "lines" ...
Within the canopies..
Intracanopy led lighting,as n@Σ@ refers to it...


So..

Either you beam a high plant from far above...
Or illuminate it equally all over...
From, really close..
With no heat...
With pretty much dispersed power (120°-155°) ...
With great enough power ,for the surface illuminated..
( for 120°-155° leds ,height of 10cm to 40cm,-depending on Output flux of the led use-is ideal ....)

Think it over...
Search more...
Who knows ?
Maybe the solution for a finer spectra will occur,also...

But ,a small -green- voice,says,something like :
" I like all the three whites of this new ice-light...Pretty cool, under it...I think i like them,a lot... "


So...
Searching it over with leds...
It's fun...
One gets,even closer with the plants...
..
Call me ,crazy or fool......
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
I 'be honest...
The whole concept of "surround lighting" came ,along with a ..." failure",I should say ,so..
.Emhh..
Yes..

The very first led attempt,not sooooo long ago....

Strap on your belt,my friend...
I used 31.something Watts, of crappy 5050 smd led modules ( 12 V )...
Each led ,had 3 chips ,driven at 20mA ,60mA in total per led..
Four leds per module,with smd resistors...
Dipped in epoxy glue..
Everything..
Cooling ,lenses,precision,ect..... He,he,he...,do not even think about 'em....
WE ARE TALKING FOR TOTAL "CHEAP" CRAP !!!....

48 Modules...

In a small plastic bottom, of ex-desk scanner...
(that's recycling,for sure...)...
Do not laugh,please...
I got 9-10 whole grams....
( 1/3 oz,I think ? )

.Pretty pitiful....
0,2..g/w ...

But you know what ?
...
Thing is ,I shouldn't have got ,those 10 or nine grs ,already... ..
(can't say for sure,because of the often ...native's ,guh..eh...hem...."mammalian herbosmoker" attacks...)
Tried to illuminate with lasers also...

650s' & 405s'....
Those &U(&ers,get toasted from heat ,within an hour,or two...
Burned 7 or 8 of them in one day...
Experiment stopped ,there...
...
Anyway...
...
:dunce::blsmoke::?:idea:
Led ,is a whole new way of "cold light " .....

TOTAL IRRADIANCE (Over the range of 280-50,000 nm)

A ratio of total irradiance to PAR of 0.50 or less W m-2 per μmol m-2 s-1 (2.3 W m-2 per W m-2 PAR) is desirable to reduce thermal heating of plants and soil. The solar radiation ratio is less than 0.50 W m-s per μmol m-2 s-1 PAR. A ratio below 0.50 cannot be obtained with most lamps without a barrier and adequate ventilation or a luminaire specifically designed to dissipate infra-red radiation. For example, the ratios for metal halide lamps without a barrier, with an acrylic barrier, and with an acrylic barrier with 5 cm of water was shown to be 0.60, 0.53, and 0.24 W m-2 per μmol m-2 s-1 PAR, respectively. Low temperature sources such as low pressure sodium lamps and light emitting diodes (LEDs) without barriers have been shown to have ratios of 0.41 and 0.28, respectively.

http://biology.mcgill.ca/Phytotron/LightWkshp1994/8.1 Guidelines/Guidelines text.htm


And many other ,neat tricks ,they ..offer...
Like..
Almost absolute ,coverage....
405 nm 250mW br diode.jpg5050-lasers 650-405.jpgunder 5050smd.jpg
.
Plants....and light...
Same goes,probably with spectrum...
They do not need "high peaks" on "selected" wl ranges..
Plenty of them...
They just need the whole thing....
If extreme peaks,extreme will be the responce...
The " white light" ,
whether coming from HPS,MH,T5s',cfls or even from mercury vapor or halogen ...
(at 70's.....)
They balance it ,out ....
They use every little nanometer...
They evovle under them...
They use them either counteracting(650-680 / 720-740 ) ,either synesgistic
(610-640 with 650-700 Emers. Effec .) ..
And many of which we are aware and probably few more that we are not in knowledge of ....
So something could go wrong very easily ,with a...."penetrating" peak of certain wl band...
White light has it .."all" lets say ..

So why not from 3 (or 4 ? or 5!) different types of white leds ?

(UV range is missing,though ..
Biosynthesis of anti-oxidant chemicals diminishes over time or probably even stops..
Whatever that means..

The "pressure" needed ) UV 360-380(UVa) ,(up to 5 W/m^2 : solar ground level irradiance maximum measurement ) and
280-310 nm(UVb) (up to .5 W/m^2 : solar maximum ground level irradiance measurement,for aprox one-two hours time period )

Since higher plants have developed their present characteristics under sunlight during the long process of evolution, it is quite natural that they adapted themselves to the present state of light environment. Higher plants seem to require all the spectrum bands, except for the band wavelengths 800 nm, of the sunlight coming on the Earth's surface. Blue, UV-A and UV-B light have their respective specific photomorphogenetic actions for higher plants, and are not replaced by light of other wavebands. These wavebands of radiation cooperate (UV-V, RL and BL) or counteract (BL and OL or RL) with light of other wavebands, and their requirements probably depend on the amount of other light. The situations make it difficult to draw a clear formula for lighting. We are required to take a case by case strategy, and gradually to obtain a better combination of individual wavebands. The processes of the development of lighting resembles that of prescription of a culture medium.

For the first step toward lighting formulation, the quantity of PAR should be fixed, because PAR seems to have an absolute quantity requirement. At this step the balance between the RL and BL components in the PAR should be considered. At the next step UV-A should be taken into account. It is less expensive in installment and operation than UV-B, although the functions of UV-A are not clear yet. Finally UV-B comes into consideration. To utilize the beneficial effects of UV-B and minimizing its deleterious effects, caution should be exercised in the selection of its intensity and waveband.
...
...)



( But ,that's another story ,already....
Seeds from led grown plants for led growing .?..
With needed UVB & UVA ...to evolve,to ...
Rated..
Generations needed to show evolution signs ???
-New phenos,???
Or even genotypes.??? )
 

Jahulath

Member
Hey PSUAGRO, I can't help but notice 61.5 Lm/W... That is pretty poor even compared to CFL. Also 3000k should be yellow rather than "Bright white". Considering all of that these lamps are bastard expensive and seemingly not so efficient. Was Chronicool the one that grew a low wattage plant using flexible extensions? light-bulb-lamp-socket-e27-e27-flexible-extension-adapter-converter-124341n.jpg

If so then it is an awesome concept and very close to the NASA research I have seen but your $38*8 + all the trimmings could buy you something that is so much more... I am not a pro and you can learn from my mistakes easily enough. As you know I have gotten myself in a muddle trying to design an LED lamp of my own but I am STILL wayy under half the price of a cheap BS grow lamp. Quite honestly I feel that I should have simply bitten the bullet and spent proper $$$.$$ on a penetrator grow lamp, if you can do this without starving then I think it is a no brainer - I am greedy poor and short sighted with a FAT chunk of stubborn and overconfident.

Learn from my mistakes, heaven help you for trying to emulate lmao.

Hehheehhee Sailor, you beat me to it - Thanks for the failed experiments, I love to see prototypes and it is always really helpful to see when people have already done the hairbrained thing you are contemplating (Lasers ffs I'd have done it if I had found em cheap enough believe me I looked)

Yay!
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
.."Hehheehhee Sailor, you beat me to it - Thanks for the failed experiments, I love to see prototypes and it is always really helpful to see when people have already done the hairbrained thing you are contemplating (Lasers ffs I'd have done it if I had found em cheap enough believe me I looked)

Yay!
..."

:bigjoint::bigjoint::bigjoint:...You now..Some days ...Those days..
Things just start to happen...

Reds 640-660 lasers are all over in desktop/laptop computer dvd recorders..(250-400mW )
....or player (80-150mW,if iremeber correctly...)
Any dvd recorders...
(RECYCLE ! Make laser grow lights !!!!!)
405nm (250-500mW) are the tough ones to find...
I got mine ...anyway...pretty cheap...
Diffficult ,but doable....

Laser is light ,ain't ?
Light means either e/m energy waves or photon particles...One, and the same....
Energy and mater fused together in ..what we call light...
In a laser ,the photons are there....
Diffused and collimated,from a diode....
But for sure water-cooling is needed the least.....
For the diodes to live more than an hour or two.....
...
$uck !

We like to play with the oddest of toys,aren't we ?
:dunce:
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
but notice 61.5 Lm/W... That is pretty poor even compared to CFL.
Forget units like lumens,candelas,lux.....
1Watt 0f red 630 light is approx . 270 something lumens ..

1Watt of blue light at 450 is 60 something lumens..
All together 330lumens ,give or take....

1 Watt green 550 nm light is 680 ,give or take lumens...

You take the 680 lm ,I'll keep the 330 lm ...

I have two watts of red & blue ..
You have one watt of green ...

Forget lumens,lux,candelas..
Total,forget about them,considering plants illumination...

Also 3000k should be yellow rather than "Bright white"
Yellow is the 2000+/- range of lps / hps or pink phosphor leds...

seemingly not so efficient
In lumens no they are not efficient..They emit some radiation over 700nm ..
Invisible to human eye...
In flux power,the same as other whites....( approx )
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
3000K Bright White. WTF? Probably a misprint- 5K is more like it. I thought about these before SDS came along, but thought them too expensive in case they didn't work out, what would I do with them? Instead I opted for the small 3-7.5 watters (@ ~ $6-15), thinking I could always use them around the house. So far showing great (shocking) results. I have one 4 bulb vanity, and today picked up 2 more @ 3 bulb. Not sure the bigger bulbs would fit side by side in these, but making DIY fixtures is NBD. Keep in mind these 38w are ~ 6"s long + fixture, so in your smallish cab, you are losing ~ 8".

This is the 7.5w Daylight I bought 2 of. Alas, it has a globe, but. Using one in 2 X 4 tent, the other doing a nice job lighting my dining/computer area http://www.lowes.com/pd_352274-75774-LA19DM/5K/LED_4294801193__?productId=3408610&Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&pl=1&currentURL=?Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&facetInfo=
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
..Wow...I lot of fuzz ,for nothing...

Well,not exactly nothing...

We all ,keep learning from it...

Well,yes lot of stardust in this thread...

Happy to know,about it.....

And every opinion,of course ,is like an....

Anyway...

The " quest " is pretty funny,afterall...

No point for any hard feelings...

Every man to his craft...

So...On with the joke (cfls here I come... ),of mixing whites....
The lady that vegged under mostly red ....
With terrible outcome..
Noway,like what the other group ,-with the white leds- have had in vegging...

She had mostly red (630+660 ; 5:2 ) and " learn" to live with it...

I changed the light,to whites when on with the 12/12 cycle..
Today...
45th day on 12/12...
45 mids.jpg45 tops 2.jpg45 tops.jpg45th day.jpg

Well ,definately she is not a champ...
But...
Could It be possible for 44 Watts of CFLs' ,and from end of 5th week till now,
with 66 Watt of CFLs' ,to have had the same outcome ?
I think not...
No way...
And...
I take into evaluation facts like :
-She was vegged terrible...
-I 've poisoned her..
-Crappy leds (it would have been really different ,if all 24 leds in each panel were high-end branded ones...Much,much more different....)
-Tree-style ,is worse than SCROG,at that case of multiple panels...
-And few more...(tap water of 1,37 EC ,ect..)
Plus...
-So ,what more or less,than to show all the stardust topped,
super funny little micro grow ,through " 0-1s',for others to see " ?

...Lol...

Why all this fuzz ?
Com' on..Why is bad to solder 90+ diodes if it's a good way to use leds ?
(at least ,thats' what you think..)
And you have the will & courage to do it...
And of course removing ,old leds from pc is not easy-who said so ? -
But its doable enough,for a skilled soldering iron user...
There is analog equip for that...(wicks..)
Anyway...
Details...
...
Everybody is free to try everything..
None has ,any "position",or "opinion' ,
which is "heavier",somewhat than others' are..
Freedom of thinking and doing...
Experimenting...
Techno-babbling..

And why not,after all ?
Free to read ,what I've found and thought ,that might be useful...
You don't have to ,though...

Searching..

In many different ways..
For all the ..."players"...it's the same..
Whatever...

For the common welfare,afterall...
..
Simple ,enough...

..
MaKe led ,no war...

:peace::peace::peace:

'Cause,afterall,they ,probably,possess the ability to grow plants,requiring the use of less energy..
And everybody is free,to think and act...
Comparing "searching with leds".to collecting bottle
caps or stamps ,is much-much better...

-according to my and only mine ,point of view-
......
My own deeep rabbit hole...

Lol...
..
Keep growing for rolling..

Stardusty,misty, tips of the day:

# 1 ): "
White leds are mainly the ones , that continuously being evolved,by led industry...
Getting "better" and "better",all the time..
. "


# 2 ) :
[video=youtube;cpD6KO0aggk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpD6KO0aggk[/video]

 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Caution: Reading the following may have adverse effects ,including headache,vomiting,dizziness,drulling over keyboard,ect....
Avoid reading,if not really necessary ....


As for the per centi amount of red range needed...
30%-40% of total flux or 60%-70% ???

There is a question. Is it necessary to prepare optimal light conditions for the photosynthesis of all leaves on the plant or not?
What way is it determined?
The correct decision on spectral composition of light depends very much on certain morphological characteristics of plants.
There is a dependance upon the distribution of fruits(Stardust:or flowers) along a stem (Tikhomirov, 1990).

For example, cucumber has equal distribution of fruits along the stem.
There every leaf supplies assimilate to its fruit.(Stardust:or flowers)
In this connection cucumber leaves at all layers must be provided with optimal light conditions.
This requires a large portion of green rays in PAR (about 40%).
Red rays in PAR (about 40%) provide high level of photosynthesis of upper leaves.

Green rays penetrate into middle and lower leaves of plants.
Blue rays have regulatory function, but its part in PAR is not very big (about 20%) (Tikhomirov, 1989).


We have another situation, where fruits of a plant concentrate in the upper part of the stem.

Classical example is wheat.

The ear of wheat is supplied with assimilates, primarily from the upper leaves.
With this crop, PAR must have approximately 60-70% red rays (Tikhomirov, 1990).

We've obtained data on specific reactions of plants for the spectral composition of PAR.
It's particularly important during plant development processes.

According to this point of view plants may be divided into two groups (Tikhomirov et al., 1991):
1) The first group is characterized with restricted growth and development processes at definite ontogenetic phases if the PAR spectrum and intensity are not optimized (i.e., cucumber, sunflower);


2) The second group include plants capable of passing through all ontogeneticS phases and producing a harvest irrespective of the PAR spectrum and intensity provided (for example: tomatoes, wheat).

Wheat is capable of passing through all phases of ontogenesis regardless of any specific spectral irradiation.
It's correct for PAR range of 100-600 W m[SUP]-2[/SUP] and possibly even higher.

Tomatoes have more restricted PAR range in comparison with wheat. With a PAR of 200 Wm[SUP]-2[/SUP] and higher, tomato productivity is lowered in red rays.

PAR range for radish appeared to be more narrow.
Even when red and green light is equal at a PAR of 200 Wm[SUP]-2[/SUP],plants of radish perish.
Cucumbers appeared to be the most greatly influenced by the spectrum of PAR.
For example in red wavelengths with less than PAR of 50 Wm[SUP]-2[/SUP], plants die.


We shouldn't ignore these great differences in reaction of plants on spectrum and PAR intensity.
All compromising decisions including introduction of universal spectrum of irradiation lead to partial loss of productivity.



Equal-energetic spectrum ("white" light) or a spectrum similar to curve of the action spectrum of photosynthesis have been proposed for use as a universal spectra for plants growing under lamp lighting.

The first might be chosen because of consideration of phylogenesis of plants,
the second - because of research familiar to you (McCree, 1972; Inada, 1976).

Either of these options could be accepted as a temporary compromise for initial research.


I do not believe that we have to copy illumination of plants in natural conditions for use in controlled environment growing.

For example there's no need to grow some species of plants under alternative light dark periods. Our research showed that productivity of some plants (radish, wheat) can be increased under continuous irradiation (Tikhomirov et al., 1976; Lisovsky et al., 1987). Also, we should not strictly aspire to duplicating morphophysiological characteristics of field grown plants. Thus, for example, we achieved a very large radish productivity when we sharply changed its photomorphogenesis (Tikhomirov et al., 1976). This is true for increasing cucumber productivity too. However, if we accept this concept, we must know where and how we should deviate from natural conditions to increase productivity of plants grown in controlled environments.
http://biology.mcgill.ca/Phytotron/LightWkshp1994/1.3 Tikhomirov/Tikhomirov text.htm
....
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Some white ,aromatic,spicy pepa...
Stardust ,covered ....
The lowest of buds,which has survived my ....attacks...

white spicy pepper.jpg

And one a bit higher,still set 30 cm,or so under canopy,away from 120° (crappy)leds of 1 Watt chip...
pepa 2.jpg
...

[video=youtube;YleXlgHI1oM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YleXlgHI1oM[/video]
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
660 leds with no 730s'.. aka high R:FR ratio illumination....


What some say....:


High R:FR Ratios ( R:FR ratio 655-665 nm vs 725-735 nm )

Fluorescent tubes and high pressure sodium vapor lamps are popular PAR sources in CE, and both provide R:FR ratios several times higher than sunlight. Due to the spectral properties of Pr and Pfr, changes in R:FR above ca. 1.5 do not cause a proportional change in the phytochrome photoequilibrium (Smith and Holmes 1977). Therefore, the R:FR-based neighbor detection mechanism is likely to be distorted or disabled when canopies are grown under extremely high R:FR ratios. Some experimental evidence for this idea has been provided by studies with amaranth, in which CuSO[SUB]4[/SUB] filters were used to increase the R:FR ratio of the light received by the canopies and reduce stem elongation. These studies have shown that very high R:FR ratios result in decreased (rather than increased) canopy net productivity. It is not clear whether this decrease is caused by (1) the elimination of an active sink of assimilates (i.e. the growing internodes), a change in the pattern of light penetration through the canopy (see below), or a combination of the two. In any case, these results appear to directly contradict the notion that canopy growth at high densities is limited by the diversion of photosynthate to "shade-avoidance" responses. Of course, the use of artificially high R:FR ratios may be a convenient way to obtain short-statured plants in CE, which may be desirable for many crops grown for horticultural or ornamental purposes (McMahon and Kelly 1990, Rajapakse and Kelly 1992).

Another predictable consequence of the use of extremely high R:FR ratios in CE is the elimination of phototropic responses triggered through phytochrome. Since these responses may play a role in the dynamics of gap-filling by the canopy, it is suggested that the increase in light interception over time (and therefore canopy growth) will be slowed under very high R:FR. Of course, the extent of this retardation would depend upon (1) the quantitative importance of phototropic responses in gap-filling by the shoot population, and (2), the extent to which phytochrome and B-absorbing photoreceptors play redundant roles in controlling phototropic responses in canopies.
Finally, very high R:FR, which disable the phytochrome-mediated mechanism of neighbor etection, will almost certainly result in increased size structuring in dense plant populations. From a plant grower stand-point the establishment of a strong size hierarchy in the population might have two negative consequences: reduced total yield at high densities and reduced yield uniformity.


You know by now,where to find those....
INTRODUCTION

Attempts to use artificially lit cabinets to grow plants identical to those growing in sunlight have provided compelling evidence of the importance of light quality for plant growth. Changing the balance of red (R) to far-red (FR) radiation, but with a fixed photosynthetic input can shift the phytochrome photoequilibrium in a plant and generate large differences in plant growth. With FR enrichment the plants elongate, and may produce more leaf area and dry matter (see Smith, 1994 these proceedings). Similar morphogenic responses are also obtained when light quality is altered only briefly (15-30 min) at the end-of-the-day (Ballare 1994; these proceedings). Conversely, for plants grown in natural conditions the response of plant form to selective spectral filtering has again shown that red and far-red wavebands are important as found by Kasperbauer and coworkers (Kasperbauer, 1992). Also, where photosynthetic photon flux densities (PPFD) of sunlight have been held constant, the removal of far-red alone alters plant growth (Mortensen and Stromme 1987; McMahon et al., 1991). As shown in Table 1 for chrysanthemum, with FR depletion plants grown in sunlight are small, more branched and darker green. Here we examine the implications for plant growth and flowering when the far-red composition of incident radiation in plant growth chambers is manipulated.

OVERVIEW

As a broad generalization, far-red rich lamps are beneficial and sometimes essential, for plant growth and flowering in artificially lit chambers. Thus fluorescent and sodium lamps, being FR deficient may cause stunting and poor flowering. Brief end-of-day FR exposure may alleviate some of the stunting of growth but will probably have complex effects on flowering. A more beneficial approach appears to be continued FR enrichment over the whole photoperiod. A further complexity is that the need for FR input may vary cyclically over the day.

http://biology.mcgill.ca/Phytotron/LightWkshp1994/Contents.htm

Vey interesting info about 660 & blue...& uv... light...

-PHYTOCHROME, PLANT GROWTH AND FLOWERING
-REQUIREMENTS OF BLUE, UV-A, AND UV-B LIGHT FOR NORMAL GROWTH OF HIGHER PLANTS,
AS ASSESSED BY ACTION SPECTRA FOR GROWTH AND RELATED PHENOMENA---
PLANT PHOTOMORPHOGENESIS AND CANOPY GROWTH
-PHYTOCHROME-MEDIATED RESPONSES
IMPLICATIONS FOR CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT RESEARCH FACILITIES
-

And I 've got to make 10 of these,to try them SCROG on 1-2 females... :

possible winner...jpg

{ -blue (cools,mainly / but neutrals,also) wls disperse more placed on corner for full & easy coverage
-Red wls are more " direction oriented"...A bit to the center but still as dispersed as possible...
They are the spike ,after all....Far apart....As possible....
-Neutrals(blue-greens( manuf. 'trick'for more lumens)-yellows) running across in the mid zone...
-Warm whites ( orange-red-far red) ,all over...

A beauty....
Oh....
...
Oh...
I wish I had the money to buy ...

-40x630 Osrams...(red dragons )
-100 x Oslons warm whites or Crees...
-40 x cool crees...
- 60 x neutral crees or osrams..

The best bins for my needs....
But...
My budget,allows me more easily to spend approx 120$ for 300 pcs of crappy leds...
(That's what I've paid,before ..)

Manufacturer e-mail me ,telling that the cool whites/neutral ,now they are stronger...
Not much details ,though...

So to continue searching and experimenting :
Total cost :
10 x 20cm x 16 xc x 5 cm alum.heatsink =150$ all...(no shipping,direct from factory...)
10 pcbs = 50$/shipping included+2x pcb as present...
10 drivers =100$ (without shipping )
240 leds 1 Watt chip =I ordered 300 pcs=120$ (shipping included+50$ custom duty)
+ 70$ for a bit of silver3% solder (lead free ), some tubes of cheap white silicone thermal paste,silicone thermal glue,cables,plugs,rivets,ect...

=540 $ give or take 20$.....
(sorry,for the earlier mistake...)


For 10 X 22 Watt (approx.) led panels
..
540$ for 200+ Watts...
...
....
Not so bad afterall..
And for the ways chosen....
Ok....
But it's a "hobby",dealing with "fresh" tech...
Has to have a certain price...

For utilising expensive quality leds,I guess I'll have to wait ..
First I have to find what works best and how...

Until then,I'm sure ,they will exist super -efficient leds...
But until ,then,I'll stay with the cheap,crappy ones..
They do the job ,they are asked to,just fine....
(In fact ,the same ,exact led units (quality)
with the led units many renown led grow panels have.
(...Or maybe even better,maybe,cause they are custom ordered,regarding chip selection and phosphor mix-)


And from now on ,I will buy some leds when needed...
For the needs of my experiments....

Now,the brothers of the other group ,just entered flowering...

Vegged under 132 Watt of Astir (Proto-)Type Led grow panels (6x pcs)...
(Slightly different types..But mainly under Warm / Neutral whites......)
No lenses...120°-140°
With not the best arrangement of the illuminairies in available space.....
Maybe a bit far ,also...

Observe carefully...

Thats what can 132 Watt of crappy white (warms -neutrals-cools mix ) leds do , pretty easy..
.If used ,in ..certain and very specific way....
-Imagine what high-quality ones,can do if used,in the same way...-


Now....
Fed from same tank...
Vegged under 400 Watt of HPS (Plps Grn.Pwr )+digital ballast...(Sonlight)
Those...
Different ,in a way....

(All of them are WR...From seed...)
Anyway..
Both are good...
At least....



Flowering ,will reveal its shelf,along with many more answers...
...
As for....
Utilising white leds,....
My own @ss-rabbit hole,shows those pitiful but enlightful sparks of wisdom,you all see...:
....


No...
For sure no...
...
Cfls' here I come...
No!...
...
What about....:
"HIDs ,here I come.." ..

That's more correct,brothers ...
Ain't, so ?

( And the new buckets ,also seem to be .."fast" enough....He,he,he....)
 
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