Almost 1/3 of all homicides in my county 2010-16 were police killings

Fogdog said:

Not really. US accident rates due to guns is orders of magnitude higher than most other countries. Simply putting a bullet into a gun makes one less safe. Not to mention the number of people who should not be carrying and the gun lobby defends their right to do so.

I recognize that gun death and safety are tiny issues in the grand scheme. Not to the people who are affected by it, but as a society this is a small issue. The few hundred killed, maimed or who lose loved ones to guns is a small number, so I guess I shouldn't consider them.

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greg nr said:

I've always argued (unsuccessfully) that there should be tiers to gun ownership. Hunting, self defense, and tactical. Each having it's own levels of training and certification. The lower the risk the weapon poses for mass murder, the lower the bar should be.

Anything in the tactical class - which would include guns without lever actuated safeties like glocks (the trigger safety is not a safety at all) and any semi auto capable of holding large clips - would require special training and special permitting. They should be limited to professions that need them, not suzy midwesterner who gets killed by a toddler reaching into her purse.

But there is a reason the NRA opposes even the gathering of statistics. They don't want a safer product. Dozens if not hundreds of accidental shootings could easily be avoided through proper design and application. But it is illegal to even research it.

Want a black powder musket? Just prove you are mentally fit. Want an AR-15, prove you can use one and have a valid reason to own it.

We don't let just anyone have grenades or bombs. Yet those are arms.

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ttystikk said:

I think the police need tiers, too; they can have flak jackets and semi automatic weapons, but no full auto and definitely no fucking armored vehicles.

JUST SAY NO TO MILITARIZED POLICE.

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ttystikk said:

Do you're saying corruption in police forces is inevitable and unavoidable.

I say that's compete bullshit and a copout- pun intended.

Restore accountability and the good cops will get rid of the bad ones- which will then restore the public's respect for their job.

Accountability. It's what's gone missing from all levels of government and corporations, and it's very much responsible for the slide of our country into the shitter.

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greg nr said:

I'm ok with defensive equipment, but offensive weapons need to be held as taboo per the posse comitatus act. Especially no killer robots with claymore mines attached, or rpg's, or 30/50 cal auto's, or tanks, flame throwers, etc.

At that point, police=army.

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Flowki said:

Corruption is definitely a thing in every country's force and that will not go away, only the level of it. I don't know the level it goes up to in your country but I can imagine, given the over all picture of America it's pretty bad compared to somewhere like the uk. That aside the way a lot of Americans seem to over react and believe/look for any reason to hate the police force in it's entirety must surely make it a very hostile and bitter place to work for a police officer just trying to do his job. What I wonder is how many of those are pushed over the edge to become the cop you describe. The media and all those popular alternate media types who know cop brutality make a good anger click bait story overly focus or twist the truth to serve that click bait mentality aka advertising money. Similar to the black lives/feminist movement, applicable overly focused out of proportion reporting for the same purpose, if not to serve a political one. The media are adding gallons and gallons of fuel to a camp fire while civilians are picking up pitch forks because everybody else is. It does not do anything but create a fog of hatred and contempt on both sides, while some fucker gets rich from it.

Yes I completely agree accountability needs to happen in order to restore trust and respect for the force. I've seen many of those unlawful cop shootings go unpunished and that's not good. Free fuel is what it is.

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vostok said:

Back then my German was not so good

and did not see the sign

'DO NOT WALK ON THE GRASS'

A German cop stopped me and gave me serious shit

so I sat on a park bench waiting for my buddy

in that 30 minutes outside this busy train station

not one Kraut walk on the small patch of grass

with no cop to be seen either

I just shake my head !!!!! still do

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vostok said:

Back then my German was not so good

and did not see the sign

'DO NOT WALK ON THE GRASS'

A German cop stopped me and gave me serious shit

so I sat on a park bench waiting for my buddy

in that 30 minutes outside this busy train station

not one Kraut walk on the small patch of grass

with no cop to be seen either

I just shake my head !!!!! still do

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vostok said:

Greets to you Balders yes you are correct

last year my babe and I just had a curry and me 2 km from a toilet took a dump in a dumpster

only to be caught by a Chines couple taking a pic of me

my babe went off at them like the soviet days

until they handed over $5.00 thats for the cab ...lol

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ttystikk said:

Straight bullshit.

Germany is a country of 82 million people, troubled by Islamic Terrorism and struggling with refugees from all over the Middle East, most recently Syria.

Their police kill a tiny fraction of the number of civilians American cops do, even on a per capita basis. Like totals in the single digits annually over the course of the last 10 years. American cops kill almost A THOUSAND CIVILIANS A YEAR.

Hold the officers personally accountable for the conduct of themselves and their peers and this shit comes to a crashing halt. German police are held to a higher standard, exactly the opposite of this self serving bullshit about how 'they need extra leeway cuz they have a tough job'.

And guess what? They're highly efficient, professional, competent, honest and most importantly, trusted and respected by their countrymen. In all of these categories they score higher than American cops.

Accountability. It's what's required for real democracy and actual freedom.

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Flowki said:

The refugee situation etc is not really part of the argument, America has it's own issues to somewhat mirror that. Would you suggest German civilians are as hostile and violent as American civilians, and that the only reason for American civilian hostility is cop brutality and nothing to do with the amount of cultural segregation and hatred, magnified by gun availability. I am on your page, cops need to be held accountable but even if that was so it would not stop the friction and violence between cultures or toward police. It runs far too deep for far too long with a blatant across the board unwillingness to forgive the past to be that simple.

The big difference between American culture and German culture is that the Germans have been able to accept they were responsible for bad times, forgive themselves as a nation and positively move forward together, on the whole. America simply aint doing that.. to many parties are throwing shit for past or current wrong doings to unload what ever outlet of hostility where ever it sticks. It's just my outside opinion, America is a country self destructing from mostly historic vengeance.

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ttystikk said:

By way of reply, I'm just going to mention that yet another cop who shot a black man- and then planted a gun on the body- was acquitted of murder today.

Maybe the law doesn't deserve respect, which itself leads to lawlessness.

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Flowki said:

I completely agree the corruption is real but gathering a lynch mob to hate on all police officers is not going to help. You always preach democracy so tell me why it is justified that even in this case you speak of, protests turned violent and a few cops (who we must assume are good cops) got injured. Do they deserve that?, why because they are cops and cops are on the same side?. It's not about sides.

This is a random vid that came from me tracking the story you mentioned. At first glance it looks horrific but break it down. The women is being very uncooperative, we don't know for how much of the time getting to the station or while at the station before ''look at the camera'' she was being as such. The police officer lost his patience and lead her back to the cell. You then see her getting shoved into the cell smashing her head on the seat. If you look back though, she clings on at the door way to resist. At this point I think the cop massively under estimated her strength to his (heightened by frustration) and pushes way to hard to get her into the cell. She was not that strong and went flying. I don't think he had intent to hurt her like that, it was an unfortunate accident brought on by frustration. None the less he messed up and should be punished. This is the type of cop I see as trying to do his job but buckles to the constant lack of respect given by the public, with a bad end for all involved. Anyway, look at the guy who sits with the lady for the whole duration, not a bad guy clearly.. lets hope he never gets pushed over the edge too.

It is obviously a horrendous incident but many videos of similar nature exist. If you break them down with ought letting pure anger or agenda cloud the situation you see a whole different picture of fault on both sides. But, many vids like this are edited or twisted in such a way to portray one agenda, all cops violently attack innocent compliant civilians. That just feeds the idea that the cops are the e
nemy and you should not comply.. wich then feeds the result of cops getting fed up and doing things like this.

Funny though, you never see vids of a civilian being cooperative and the cop being professional and all goes smoothly. For every bad vid like this (hopefully not this bad) you'd have 1000 that went fine.. but who wants to see those.

Holland is a beautiful country but most people who have not been there or who have, still only know it for Amsterdam and the pot culture. But even the notion that Amsterdam is full of pot heads is wrong. I think this represents the American police on the whole. Only seeing the negatives gives you a very warped reality.

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Flowki said:

I completely agree the corruption is real but gathering a lynch mob to hate on all police officers is not going to help. You always preach democracy so tell me why it is justified that even in this case you speak of, protests turned violent and a few cops (who we must assume are good cops) got injured. Do they deserve that?, why because they are cops and cops are on the same side?. It's not about sides.

This is a random vid that came from me tracking the story you mentioned. At first glance it looks horrific but break it down. The women is being very uncooperative, we don't know for how much of the time getting to the station or while at the station before ''look at the camera'' she was being as such. The police officer lost his patience and lead her back to the cell. You then see her getting shoved into the cell smashing her head on the seat. If you look back though, she clings on at the door way to resist. At this point I think the cop massively under estimated her strength to his (heightened by frustration) and pushes way to hard to get her into the cell. She was not that strong and went flying. I don't think he had intent to hurt her like that, it was an unfortunate accident brought on by frustration. None the less he messed up and should be punished. This is the type of cop I see as trying to do his job but buckles to the constant lack of respect given by the public, with a bad end for all involved. Anyway, look at the guy who sits with the lady for the whole duration, not a bad guy clearly.. lets hope he never gets pushed over the edge too.

It is obviously a horrendous incident but many videos of similar nature exist. If you break them down with ought letting pure anger or agenda cloud the situation you see a whole different picture of fault on both sides. But, many vids like this are edited or twisted in such a way to portray one agenda, all cops violently attack innocent compliant civilians. That just feeds the idea that the cops are the e
nemy and you should not comply.. wich then feeds the result of cops getting fed up and doing things like this.

Funny though, you never see vids of a civilian being cooperative and the cop being professional and all goes smoothly. For every bad vid like this (hopefully not this bad) you'd have 1000 that went fine.. but who wants to see those.

Holland is a beautiful country but most people who have not been there or who have, still only know it for Amsterdam and the pot culture. But even the notion that Amsterdam is full of pot heads is wrong. I think this represents the American police on the whole. Only seeing the negatives gives you a very warped reality.

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Fogdog said:

The old false equivalence argument. That one is fairly common among fascists these days. Sort of like: Yeah a Nazi drove over peaceful counter protesters, put 30 people in the hospital and killed on but Antifa brandished sticks and told Nazis to leave the city, so everybody was bad.

Who gives a shit about your video. Doesn't prove anything or do anything to make a point. Random video somehow justifies cops killing black people at horrendous numbers. Fuck that.

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Flowki said:

I am a colored man living in a predominantly white area, most of my friends and family are white and I like the fact my girlfriend also works, even helps with diy around the house, she also has a social life, we are equal as can be. I am part of no gang or political group. Only in Hollywood would that be the intro of a fascist ''individual''.

I think you will find it is the segmented sides/movements in America that are exhibiting many of the traits of fascism, regardless of race or sex.

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Fogdog said:

I didn't say your were fascist. I said you made a false equivalency when you compared what happened in the video to the issues discussed in this thread. I said fascists are doing the same thing.

And I completely agree that this country has become more fascist over time, to the point where Trump could become prez.

We have a problem in this country where police kill or injure the people they should be protecting. Racism is a problem, both due to some racist cops, cops who see protecting the force as more important than flushing out racist cops and systemic racism in the judicial system as a whole. Fascism is part of the problem too. No excuses can be made for any of this.

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ttystikk said:

All of which are reasons why I started this thread.

Just yesterday, yet another cop was acquitted for murdering a black man, even after (sloppily) planting a gun on the body.

If the police aren't held accountable, why should anyone else be?

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