4 Season greenhouse take 1

No I have a tarp under everything then straw then stone. Im not planting in this its just for a thermal mass. I have to raise up the floor. Perhaps when I get the rental truck Ill grab a bunch of straw with it. I must have damn near 40 bails down in the field on top of the 300s though much of it is jammed down the sides to block the heat from the sun. Then again many of them are getting emptied, should I have the stamina, for the sub straight for this set up. Theres 33% castings, 33% clay and 33% peat. It needs some work for sure though. I think I can make do with 40 or 50 bails. I really should be out there now making good with the floor though Im a bit exhausted. The straw bails are r25 so the stone should ideally stay toasty warm all winter.

ttystikk said:

Unless my guess is way off, I'd be willing to bet that COB LED lighting would be an excellent supplement to natural light and would work very well in a greenhouse setting.

Don't get me started on nature; you're the one trying to grow an annual in the winter! LOL

Click to expand...

Okay so Im thinking I definitely need supplemental for the majority of it and want to try the results vs the natural instead of risking a season on genetics I am not familiar with. How many of these would I need or could you direct me to a source of info that I could read up on these please? If you had any idea of the cost needed to supplement the space with these that would be really helpful. Are they dim-able?



Im researching ICETRON ECOLOGIC's too

This I found interesting on phytochrome from ....http://www.ag.auburn.edu/hort/landscape/lightduration.html

Phytochrome

Flowering in photoperiodic plants is sensed and regulated by a pigment known as Phytochrome. Phytochrome exists in plants in two inter-convertible forms. One form (Pr660) absorbs light in the red (660 nm) portion of the light spectrum and is converted to the second form (Pfr730) that absorbs light in the far-red portion of the light spectrum. Exposure of Pfr730 to far-red light converts it back to Pr660. In addition, Pfr730 slowly reverts back to Pr660 in darkness.

Pfr730 is the physiologically active form of phytochrome and inhibits flowering in short-day plants and promotes flowering in long-day plants. There is a critical Pfr730 level below which flowering is no longer inhibited in short-day plants and flowering is no longer promoted in long-day plants. With respect to phytochrome conversion, sunlight functions as red light, therefore, Pfr730 predominates at the beginning of the dark period. So the Pfr730 form is rapidly produced in the light and the Pr form is slowly produced in darkness. Under the long days of summer, the nights are not sufficiently long enough to allow enough Pfr730 to revert to Pr660 so the level Pfr730 does not drop below the critical level. Therefore, short-day plants do not flower and long-day plants flower. During the short days of winter, the nights are long enough for sufficient quantities of Pfr730 to revert to Pr660 so that the level pf Pfr730 does drop below the critical level. Therefore, short-day plants flower and long-day plants grow vegetatively.

Anyhow the Phillips QL comes in up to 135 watt with a CCT of 3000 or 4000. Which is better for CCT or mean lumens?

Then you have the Philips LED's http://images.philips.com/is/content/PhilipsConsumer/PDFDownloads/Global/ODLI20151019_004-UPD-cl_led_flowering_lamp_EN_220-240V.pdf

Im thinking LEDs right now. These bulbs may be okay for supplemental and I can get them for 90% off. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Cree-60W-Equivalent-Soft-White-2700K-A19-Dimmable-LED-Light-Bulb-6-Pack-BA19-08027OMF-12DE26-2U100/204084366?cm_mmc=shopping-_-googleads-_-pla-_-204084366&ci_sku=204084366&ci_gpa=pla&ci_src=17588969&gclid=Cj0KEQiAycCyBRDss-D2yIWd_tgBEiQAL-9RkrF9XknbJfVZlm_lQ7r9nUfFNAMgDT-nigkKw4CqDFEaAqlY8P8HAQ&gclsrc=aw.ds

They are 2700K. 800 lumens, cool white (which may lack a bit of red which I may supplement with 730nm LED chips) and 9.5 watts.

Any thoughts?

karmaxul said:

Im thinking LEDs right now. These bulbs may be okay for supplemental and I can get them for 90% off. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Cree-60W-Equivalent-Soft-White-2700K-A19-Dimmable-LED-Light-Bulb-6-Pack-BA19-08027OMF-12DE26-2U100/204084366?cm_mmc=shopping-_-googleads-_-pla-_-204084366&ci_sku=204084366&ci_gpa=pla&ci_src=17588969&gclid=Cj0KEQiAycCyBRDss-D2yIWd_tgBEiQAL-9RkrF9XknbJfVZlm_lQ7r9nUfFNAMgDT-nigkKw4CqDFEaAqlY8P8HAQ&gclsrc=aw.ds

They are 2700K. 800 lumens, cool white (which may lack a bit of red which I may supplement with 730nm LED chips) and 9.5 watts.

Any thoughts?

Click to expand...

I am absolutely not the LED expert when it comes to what chips are best for which applications. You have an excellent and important (and frankly, a big can of worms, lol) question; I highly recommend starting a thread in the LED section about this specific chip and other chips that might be useful for light supplementation, specifically in a greenhouse setting. I'm very interested in participating in such a thread in order to gain more insights, myself!

I'm having some COB LED modules built to my specifications. It's very possible that you could do something similar.

Hey karm, looking good! I'm jealous of your triple pane plans!

My little greenhouse is just single pane corrugated Lexan polycarbonate. So only 3 seasons for me. I get about 75% light as we'll due to rafters for snow load.

When I bought my poly, it was rated as UV protected with a 10 yr life. I assumed this meant uv was not getting through it. I've since been told this is wrong, UV protected still let's UV through. So I don't know for sure.

Are you sure you don't need power for your pellet stove? Mine plugs in for the gravity feed worm to turn. It's not 100% reliable as a plug in the shoot will stop it from working.

Your biggest issue in the summer will be temp control. If you can build it for best ventilation, that is the easiest way to deal. I modified mine for sides to open up and this greatly decreased my fan needs. Don't use shade cloth, you can't afford to lose more light at this point. I tried it one season and bud structure really suffered.

Keep up the good work!!

ttystikk said:

I am absolutely not the LED expert when it comes to what chips are best for which applications. You have an excellent and important (and frankly, a big can of worms, lol) question; I highly recommend starting a thread in the LED section about this specific chip and other chips that might be useful for light supplementation, specifically in a greenhouse setting. I'm very interested in participating in such a thread in order to gain more insights, myself!

I'm having some COB LED modules built to my specifications. It's very possible that you could do something similar.

Click to expand...

Thank you I will do that. Its possible that the bulbs that the state seems to be supplementing the cost of down under a dollar a piece may work as a housing for a different chip too. Ive spent about 7000 more then I was thinking this would cost so if I could keep the cost down a bit an get away with these if say they are 80% as good as the other chips I may just get that much more of then to make up for the loss or add in the others. I definitely need some LED knowledge. Has anyone ever given the plants a pure blue spectrum during the dark periods to promote sugars and ultimately growth?

I ran a light measuring app. The CCT is about 3000 on each of the two brands I found. One is 9.9 watts for .88 cents and the other is 9.5 watts for .97 cents. I can get the .97 cent ones in bulk though the .88 cent ones I think I need to show them a waiver or just get 20 a week or so. I have to do some dispersement tests with these two to see if there is any difference and what the range is at say 1 foot.

I think the Great Value one may have a smaller resistor then the CREE as the light travels much more efficiently with the Great Value ones and they are a bit cheaper. Will not last as long though if its not pushing its max potential it may not matter. I heard 10% more a resistor then its max load requires.

Bugeye said:

Hey karm, looking good! I'm jealous of your triple pane plans!

My little greenhouse is just single pane corrugated Lexan polycarbonate. So only 3 seasons for me. I get about 75% light as we'll due to rafters for snow load.

When I bought my poly, it was rated as UV protected with a 10 yr life. I assumed this meant uv was not getting through it. I've since been told this is wrong, UV protected still let's UV through. So I don't know for sure.

Are you sure you don't need power for your pellet stove? Mine plugs in for the gravity feed worm to turn. It's not 100% reliable as a plug in the shoot will stop it from working.

Your biggest issue in the summer will be temp control. If you can build it for best ventilation, that is the easiest way to deal. I modified mine for sides to open up and this greatly decreased my fan needs. Don't use shade cloth, you can't afford to lose more light at this point. I tried it one season and bud structure really suffered.

Keep up the good work!!

Click to expand...

These are 65% they say for light transmission. I would prefer they let through the UV for the plants. I could always put in between 5 and 10% tanning lamp watts I hear for UVB production. Im hoping the glass lets in a bit more of the UV. Still not sure if its going to be a more complex glass wall on the south side or slapped up polycarbonate. Do you use your green house in the winter time? Have you tried it with no supplemental lighting?

There are 5 stoves I have come across that are gravity fed. The wise way uses no power at all. You tube shows the design though it can also run water through PEX tubing with a 350 dollar adapter and well the pump and PEX and such. Heats 100 gallons up to 160. I have read the pellet stoves can come with a battery back up though when they are starting they are about 500 watts and the auger consumes about 100 watts with the fan after that. I want to be safe if the power goes out. I could get a large battery bank and hook up my solar panels though Im not sure which route Im going to go yet. Hoping the patients stay steady with there allowable purchases so my options will open up. Summer yes I may have to pull down the sides and put fencing or screen up. Screen would be ideal. To run it all summer I will need tarps for light deprivation or some such thing which may take a few joints to figure out with its size. Maybe I can incorporate some garage door openers or some thing. It would be great to have metal sides that come up at night

White LED spectrum...

Im thinking that lighting is not the way to go. Vic High of BCGA breed low light strains a while back and one of the staples of those genetics was c99. I have heard Master Kush is one of the best to grow under low light was well. The MasterC99 should be great. Why am I thinking no lighting?

Reason 1: I measured the bulbs I bought and they are 1500 lux at one foot. Shade today with over cast skys under the roof of the atrium was 16000 lux.

Cannabis generatlly needs 35000 lux to flower. 15000 is fine for veg. I could always light wash them for a while with incandescence to keep them in veg.

The have read pure indica strains will do well and I did order some Sensi Northern Lights Female seeds which I miss growing dearly. Damn near 10 years I think. Then the Bangi Haze is supposed to do well. There was one other strain that was supposedly breed for low light though it was a single batch and a pain to even see how much they sell for. Maybe Ill do a couple test sections to see the difference though Im not going all out on lighting just yet.

They will be smaller perhaps though 800 sqft of them at almost zero cost isn’t bad considering most indoor grows pay 60 to 80% of profits to electric. So lets say even cloudy days supplements 16000 lux which would cut my light in half so 30 to 40% would go towards electric. Would I lose 30 to 40% of yield or will they just look smaller? I don't see the sense in buying a ton of equipment to increase yields 40% though have to pay 40% to the electric company. Seems like a waste. Sure there are some sunny days where the lights will not be needed though Im just not sure it is the proper step right now for what it may yield. I need to figure out some numbers and the gravity they can create I suppose. Im not so worried as everyone is still growing with fertiliser so the magic of the favor alone will outsell the comp. Besides carbon neutral and applicable to anywhere on earth sounds tasty. Im just not sure.

Oh heres a pic. The roofs on. I may be fighting with frozen soil in a couple days. I pushed the rental up to try and grab a couple warm days though they may be gone for some months. I imagine I can get a ton or two of earth worm castings delvered Ill just be missing clay unless I start diggin down in the green house. What ever, Ill make it work...

No purlins on those? You're sure those panels are designed to take a snow load without them? You seem like you know what you're doing so I'm probably wrong. But the panels I'm familiar with do require horizontal purlins for snow load so just thought I'd mention it.

I dont understand how the purlins help. Im also not so sure I want snow on top of it. It held me at 150ish on one of the beams when I was putting on the top cap. Ideally a pellet stove will be in there to melt the snow as it hits the roof. Im not a builder and know little about it. do they have to be on top of the rafters? Im concerned with the added weight where it connects to the house. I screwed into the facia board though I'm not sure how many studs I hit. I was thinking of putting a brace up from the side of the house to the rafters though thats all after its air proofed off. you know the end of those panels may accumulate snow. I should cut them flush perhaps. I plan on building a platform infront of it so I can access it with a roof rake.


I still have not sealed them and most of the caps are not even in place. The good news it is raining lightly with not much wind at the moment and there are no leaks.

So interesting infö on DLI here from data collected across the country. https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/ho/ho-238-w.pdf
(Thanks Purdue though I am not a fan of your turkey trade)

Then there was this telling me about Orange Crush which supposedly only needed 30 watts of light to grow. Seeds are impossible to find though I did find some Orange Creamscile which is Orange Crush times Juicy Fruit. I have not ordered them yet as I am determined to find the elusive Orange Crush. Where did it go if it was such an anomaly? http://www.buydutchseeds.com/blog/cannabis-strains-that-need-very-little-light-to-grow.html

Here is some interesting research from Purdue (not a fan of the turkey/chicken trade) regarding DLI which is the amount of accumulated PAR received in a day. According to this chart and making a blind reference that cannabis is close to the light needs of the tomato, which I have never heard before, I need to start the flowering in February for this region to run it with out any supplemental lighting. Seeing how it is damn near the start of December and the seeds still have yet to hit the soil that sounds about right. Perhaps Ill veg most and do a couple test subjects in the meantime? Or should I just get a bunch of mothers for a sea of green single cola fest?

Sorry about the post duplicate, the rain and my satellite don't like each other. To patchy to edit or delete. Y'all will think Im smoking hydro and forgetting five minutes ago

karmaxul said:

I dont understand how the purlins help. Im also not so sure I want snow on top of it. It held me at 150ish on one of the beams when I was putting on the top cap. Ideally a pellet stove will be in there to melt the snow as it hits the roof. Im not a builder and know little about it. do they have to be on top of the rafters? Im concerned with the added weight where it connects to the house. I screwed into the facia board though I'm not sure how many studs I hit. I was thinking of putting a brace up from the side of the house to the rafters though thats all after its air proofed off. you know the end of those panels may accumulate snow. I should cut them flush perhaps. I plan on building a platform infront of it so I can access it with a roof rake.


I still have not sealed them and most of the caps are not even in place. The good news it is raining lightly with not much wind at the moment and there are no leaks.

Click to expand...

The purlins are what will keep your panels from splitting down the long middle when heavy loaded. So take any big spring snows serious if you don't put them in.

You may want to put in a ledger board under your rafters on the back of the house if the whole thing is hanging off your facia. You'll have thousands of pounds of snow up there during storms, it won't always melt or slide off immediately.

I had one up last time. I could not locate the studs with out a few hours of work so I skipped it though yes I imagine I should have. Ill have to be vigilant with a roof for now. Thanks for the advice though. Maybe I will install a center beam with ground supports every 4 feet or so.

A bit of progress today. Digging g out one side to reset the wall supports a bit closer. I was almost square. I can't wait till its sealed and starts holding heat in the floor. Should be interesting. Lux was looking decent today though there was snow on the roof and still is on half. The glass will go up in place of the plastic. I think plexiglass can filter out any spectrum. I wonder if it could filter out the green and such to bring down the heat in summer. It would be like a shade cloth though only shading unneeded spectrums. Hoping for a warmer day tomorrow then is forcasted. Once I have the castings up I'll be a bit more relaxed. Hoping the straw keeps them warm. Il thinking painting everything white inside might help too.

I read UVB can create 28% more resin http://www.amazon.com/Osram-543929-ULTRA-VITALUX-Reflector-Flood/dp/B007X41X98/ref=pd_cp_60_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=0CFXAZWV70Q5XDZ95ZWD

Kaya Gold
Master Kush

I want to try these ones too....

Anyone have any Orange Crush seeds from some years ago?

karmaxul said:

I read UVB can create 28% more resin http://www.amazon.com/Osram-543929-ULTRA-VITALUX-Reflector-Flood/dp/B007X41X98/ref=pd_cp_60_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=0CFXAZWV70Q5XDZ95ZWD

Kaya Gold
Master Kush

I want to try these ones too....

Anyone have any Orange Crush seeds from some years ago?

Click to expand...

Incandescent?! Nononono! Any HID is far more efficient. Remember, lumens for humans, PAR is for plants. You want high PAR/W and incandescent ain't it. If you're looking for UVB supplementation, consider something like this;

https://www.1000bulbs.com/product/1821/MV0400-0001E.html

VASTLY more efficient and effective at delivering hard blue and UVB than incandescent... anything. No need to run it all day- you don't want to be working under it anyway- you can program it to run for an hour or two at a time once or twice daily.

The other part of the spectrum your plants will benefit from is a lamp that emits lots of deep red, and frankly HPS fits the bill very well.

Elsewhere on this forum you can see my progress towards obtaining and installing COB LED lighting for my own setup. That's prohibitively expensive for your current situation- though not for the future, so keep it in mind.

I bring it up because as an agricultural engineering science specialist, it's my business to know what lights meet which needs best. Them COBs are indeed a great solution- and in ten years they'll be affordable enough to upgrade to, no problem! Meantime, carefully consider my suggested options. There's no reason you can't use the MV lamp year round.

Still lookin 4 Orange Crush? Have you considered the C Plus by Chimera? Its the same Cali O mom and a different blueberry.. Should be real close.

ttystikk said:

Incandescent?! Nononono! Any HID is far more efficient. Remember, lumens for humans, PAR is for plants. You want high PAR/W and incandescent ain't it. If you're looking for UVB supplementation, consider something like this;

https://www.1000bulbs.com/product/1821/MV0400-0001E.html

VASTLY more efficient and effective at delivering hard blue and UVB than incandescent... anything. No need to run it all day- you don't want to be working under it anyway- you can program it to run for an hour or two at a time once or twice daily.

The other part of the spectrum your plants will benefit from is a lamp that emits lots of deep red, and frankly HPS fits the bill very well.

Elsewhere on this forum you can see my progress towards obtaining and installing COB LED lighting for my own setup. That's prohibitively expensive for your current situation- though not for the future, so keep it in mind.

I bring it up because as an agricultural engineering science specialist, it's my business to know what lights meet which needs best. Them COBs are indeed a great solution- and in ten years they'll be affordable enough to upgrade to, no problem! Meantime, carefully consider my suggested options. There's no reason you can't use the MV lamp year round.

Click to expand...

Thank you and great advice. I thought that incandescent was one of the self ballasted mercury vapours like these one... http://www.amazon.com/Zoo-Med-PowerSun-Mercury-Vapor/dp/B0002AQDJK

Yes the COB's are expensive though direct from the suppliers they are starting to come down in price http://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?catId=390402&initiative_id=AS_20151124034423&SearchText=cob+led.

Corso312 said:

Still lookin 4 Orange Crush? Have you considered the C Plus by Chimera? Its the same Cali O mom and a different blueberry.. Should be real close.

Click to expand...

Thanks I had not heard of that one. Im looking into it now. Thank you