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2018 Abrogate Michigan Language Draft

Discussion in 'Michigan Patients' started by Timmahh, Jun 13, 2017.

?

You In?

  1. Yes?

    80.0%
  2. No?

    20.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1.  
    Timmahh

    Timmahh Well-Known Member

    Awe. Someone doesn't understand Law Enforcement Policy.

    We are not talking about people actually being impaired and Intoxicated there sunshine. We are talking about people with THC in their system. That does not equate to 'Intoxication' sizzlechest. lol

    Beuller, Beuller.
     
  2.  
    Timmahh

    Timmahh Well-Known Member

    You are correct. 1000%.

    We do not Eliminate Regulations across the board, Abrogate Eliminates Regulations that would be implemented to "Diminish" use upon Anyone.

    If you make Hemp Rope and say it can hold 2000 lbs, your help rope better hold 2000 lbs, especially if someone is removing a limb off a tree over someone house and nursery.

    Regulations, and Regulations to diminish use are worlds away from "No Regulation".

    What it also does it ends the arrests unless there is an actual Victim.
     
  3.  
    Sureshot2

    Sureshot2 Well-Known Member

    And someone doesn't know how to read. I was replying to a direct quote from you talking about alcohol being legal until you get arrested, not testing thc in your system, which was never even mentioned.

    I've yet to see an actual counter argument from you or your friends in this thread, just shit flinging, name calling and a bunch of stoners who think they know law and economics.

    You and your group already have an image problem, if your going to troll you might want to try harder.

    If you need to copy and paste definitions to try to make a point, it already shows you don't know what your talking about. If you did, you could explain it from the top of your head. And its ironic how much you and Tim keep rambling on about too much government etc, and now you are taking the side of the state on the ruling for the last MiLegalize petition....so you hate the government and their policies, unless its in your favor by removing the competing group.

    And in case you need a quick refresher, the reason they submitted so many old signatures was because they tried to gather most of them with volunteers and not paid collectors, much like this group is trying and failing to do. The 180 day rule was literally put in place to shut down grass roots movements like yourselves, and you are defending it?
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2017
  4.  
    pergamum362

    pergamum362 Well-Known Member

    I gave you a perfectly fine counter argument. Abrogate does not eliminate regulating the canna and hemp industry. It puts it square into the hands of the people, something i personally think tim should do a better job of relaying, but i can not really talk much-since i have not been able to pull away from my own going ons long enough to get involved in any substantial way yet, aside from spreading word on social media and through my own networks. Do you benefit from the mmfla or Milegalize? Do you think you will benefit in anyway? Really can not understand why anyone with eyes would want to support either of those. I can understand ppl who do not know anything about the industry or are just casual smokers supporting them..
     
  5.  
    Sureshot2

    Sureshot2 Well-Known Member

    I disagree with you that this will put any regulations in the hands of people, but fair enough, to each their own. But yes I think myself and most others will benefit from MiLegalize, just like we benefited from MMMP, how could you not? Unless you are a CG for 5 patients, you will see an increase in dry weight you can possess, without needing to have cards through LARA and renewing them. You will see recreational dispensary's, with tested and regulated products. You will also see a reduction in CG raids since it will be harder to single them out. For those that don't smoke, they will see the state generating a large tax revenue from sales at dispensary's, reducing the states debt. You might also see a greater amount of public support and awareness, but this is not guaranteed.

    I think it's foolish to think no one will benefit from this. Do you think no one benefited in Colorado or Washington? It may not be perfect, far from it, but lets be realistic...it's much better than having to hide in the shadows like we do now, and it's the only petition/piece of legislation that has any chance in hell of passing. If anyone here actually thinks Abrogate will collect more signatures than MiLegalize, without paid collectors and over the winter, I have some news for you..
     
  6.  
    TheMan13

    TheMan13 Well-Known Member

    You make a lot of accusations in attempt to spin a narrative aimed at assassinating others character. You say Tim is illiterate and his work is nothing more than name calling and trolling. You say I don't know what I am talking about followed by a parroting of Komorn's political bullshit appeal argument circa the 2016 political campaign. How did that appeal fly in reality? Are you a lawyer or are you just trying to play one online in defense of them and their politics? What exactly is your education and life experience again :confused:
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2017
  7.  
    Timmahh

    Timmahh Well-Known Member

    The implication of Alcohol is "LEGAL" right up until you are under arrest is no different with Legalized Recreational Pot.

    If you can not make that very simple correlation, then enjoy your plea deal Son.
     
  8.  
    Sureshot2

    Sureshot2 Well-Known Member

    Are you serious right now? I'm not assassinating Tim's character at all. Tim has been inflammatory ant condescending in every reply to myself, and others who disagree with him. In fact, my initial posts in this thread were simply asking Tim this logistics of his movement and how he plans to actually achieve them this time given the lack of info and apparent support. His reply was childish and accusing me of working "for the man".

    Let's not forget that of all the people in this thread that need to exercise the most restraint and tact, it is Tim, the figurehead of this movement. This is something he has not done, and has made himself look pretty bad in my opinion. His behavior and replies to those who criticize him are not what you'd expect from a spokesperson.

    I'm not defending MiLeaglize because I work for them like you and Tim seem to think, I defend it because Abrogate supporters disproportionately bash it. I have stated earlier in this thread I think Tim's movement is a good one, albeit unrealistic. I realize that Abrogate will fail, and because of that, I feel that supporting the other movement will still better our community more than nothing at all.

    It's going to take baby steps getting public support and normalization for cannabis. You aren't going to go from schedule 1, "worst drug ever" to complete decriminalization. This section wouldn't even exist if MMMP hadn't passed, and MiLegalize is essentially the same program and language but recreational. I don't see everyone here cutting up their mmmp cards in protest though?

    It just seems to me that Abrogate supporters in here spend more time protesting MiLegalize and anyone who supports it than more than they give reasons and support their own movement. Last time I checked, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Abrogate was a proposed constitutional amendment? If this is the case, MiLegalize doesn't overrule it, and both can go to the ballot and both can win, or one win/fail etc. So why so much hate?
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2017
    Norby Grown likes this.
  9.  
    TheMan13

    TheMan13 Well-Known Member

    You are correct, as a constitutional amendment Abrogate is not in competition with the MI Legalize ballot initiative. In theory both could pass and would be enacted. Sadly as a constitutional amendment Abrogate is required to produce twice the signatures to make the ballot though.

    I believe you are misreading the animus between folks like Tim and I and these lawyers and lobbyists. We are about securing liberty as a principle by and for the people (however unwashed you may choose to view us) and the other is about the money, power and politics of regulatory capture (however proper you may choose to view them). We have been risking our freedom to provide patients medicine under MMMA to prove our cause while these profiteers try to control, cash in and take credit for the success of our movement.
     
  10.  
    Sureshot2

    Sureshot2 Well-Known Member

    That is another important point that I have raised countless times, and it has fallen on deaf ears. No one has given me a definitive path towards getting that many signatures, which is a tremendous amount. CRMLA is paying for collectors and also working with MiLegalize, and will still just barely reach or pass the goal of ~360k. How does Abrogate intend to collect almost double that, without paid collectors, less financial backing, and during the worst time of year to collect? Tim should be reaching out to as many people as possible, not telling people like myself that I'm a shill and alienating a potential supporter.

    I have seen many sensible posts on that group stating that Abrogate may be alienating MiLegalize supporters and volunteers by calling them out as shills and bashing, when instead you should be trying to get them to support your cause, given that they are nearly wrapped up. Most of us are all on the same side here, and the vast majority of MiLegalize supporters are just regular people who want recreational cannabis.

    So no, I am not misreading, I am simply stating that when you treat criticism with hostility, you will be treated back likewise. I fully understand what Abrogate is about, and what CRMLA is about. If both made it on the ballot I would vote for both. A quick browse of the Abrogate facebook page reaffirms what I am saying as well. There are a lot of people who would be willing to compromise for the CRMLA initiative if Abrogate didn't make it to the ballot, and who would vote for both as not to divide up support and end up with nothing.

    And on a sidenote, how many signatures does Abrogate currently have? I see posts on the FB saying they hope/intend to have them all by Jan 2018, but can go until July at latest. And an honest answer, no projections, or hypothetical math, just a current figure.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2017
    Norby Grown likes this.
  11.  
    Timmahh

    Timmahh Well-Known Member

    No I have been Direct and Honest in my replies to you and anyone else. You can not put your emotional state onto the words of other people. That always leads to confusion.

    The issue is Regulate Like Booze will lead to more arrests. That is not Protesting, that is just telling you like it is.

    Just because you don't like the Facts of the Matter, does not change the Facts. I'm just telling you straight with no bullshit.
     
  12.  
    Timmahh

    Timmahh Well-Known Member

    Then you are reading the wrong posts.
     
  13.  
    Timmahh

    Timmahh Well-Known Member

    We are just now 6 weeks in. Too early to say.
     
  14.  
    Sureshot2

    Sureshot2 Well-Known Member

    I can go back and quote all your negative replies if you want? But besides from thin air, where is your sources or evidence of this? I fail to see how it could possible lead to more arrests, this is just nonsense. And don't give me some philosophical psuedo-science BS, actual sources and studies showing it will increase arrests. If you can do that I'm all ears.

    So like i said, instead of being a sarcastic tool and telling me I'm reading the wrong posts, why not just answer my question. You literally just proved you aren't being "direct and honest" like you said above.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
  15.  
    pergamum362

    pergamum362 Well-Known Member

    Enactment of the mmmp raised arrest 17 percent..correlation, yes..it would be hard to pin point cause without seeing everything..but in this instance correlation should suffice. The same thing happened and is happening in the east. Dont you See how every so often, the legal #s drop, ever approaching the point where the only legal source is a state. Abbrograge would stop that in its tracks, wich they already started by excluding caregivers from the mmfla.
     
  16.  
    pergamum362

    pergamum362 Well-Known Member

    I also dont understand why folks seem to think increasing or adding tax revenue will solve the budget issues. Plenty of money is there, spending And over regulations or union demands are what crushed mi economy in the first place.
     
    Timmahh likes this.
  17.  
    Timmahh

    Timmahh Well-Known Member


    Like I said, Open your Eyes.


    "We are just now 6 weeks in. Too early to say."
     
  18.  
    Sureshot2

    Sureshot2 Well-Known Member

    This is a logical fallacy. I know it gets said a lot, but it still holds true: correlation does not imply causation. You have no evidence to show that it was mmmp that caused an increase in arrests, and not other things. But just for the sake of this argument lets assume that mmmp did in fact cause this increase and break it down. To start off, arrests may have gone up, but you are leaving out other important numbers, such as marijuana use, which has also gone up. After accounting for that, you could probably cut the 17% figure in half easily. Beyond that, mmmp makes it very easy for police to target users, given that registered mmmp users are a small fraction of the population, who are required to be registered card holders and adhere to stringent and vague rules. Illegal dispensary's have also made for easy targets to raid and bust users at, so this could also account for some increases.

    However, unless you can show me that the majority of arrests were card holding mmmp users, you can't make the argument that mmmp caused arrests to go up. You are simply comparing apples to oranges here, and a more fair comparison would have been how have arrests trended in states that have legalized recreational use with similar language. Stats like Colorado, Washington, Oregon etc all show dramatic decreases in arrests for possession, and a decrease in arrests for all other marijuana related charges as well. So how do you dispute this? I think this is pretty clear evidence that arrests would likely go down under the MiLegalize initiative, or in the worst case, remain the same (though unlikely).

    Six weeks is 25% of your entire 180 window, this is not too early at all. If you don't know how many you have that tells me you've already failed. You are quickly running out of nice weather to petition, and I would expect you to have no less than 120,000 by now to reach your goal in that time frame.
     
  19.  
    TheMan13

    TheMan13 Well-Known Member

    @Sureshot2 How many MMMA patients/caregivers and their families have had their homes violently raided this past decade based simply off the no exception drug war probable cause tactic of a garbage pull to secure a warrant by a federally funded drug task force? Do you not think arrests/charges of all sorts occur as your "justice system" summarily dismisses your 4th Amendment rights along with your MMMA rights? Have you read People vs Brown justifying this?

    IMHO the 17% increase in marijuana arrests does not even begin to tell the story of the threat and harm done by our "justice system" clearly corrupted by drug war conflict of interest/propaganda and the view of us (MMMA) as useful low hanging fruit to boost their numbers and feed their costly machine/industry.

    BTW once raided and having all of your assets taken how does one come up with 10k just to get a "medical marijuana drug warrior" like Komorn to simply get started on a plea? What's a reasonable cost of a trial by these cats?

    If you honestly want to read into this problem brother, try doing some reading/research rather than simply demanding proof to discredit ...
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2017
    Timmahh likes this.
  20.  
    Timmahh

    Timmahh Well-Known Member

    Clearly, there is going to be a major push for "impaired" driving. Between 2012 and 2015, Michigans Drunk Driving Arrests went from 55,000 a year in 2012, down to 33,000 a year in 2015.

    While we find that to be a great thing, a State 84 Billion in Debt sees that as Lost Revenue. They are seeing this Legalized Recreational Marijuana like Alcohol as just another Public Safety issue they can exploit.

    There are already 5 cases in Michigan, 4 of which are currently ongoing, where a driver is being charged with Impaired Driving and the Citing is for Hight Levels of THC Metabolites.

    The argument of the Government is not "Did the THC" make them impaired. The position of the Government is that the THC Absolutely caused the impairment which resulted in the accident, which resulted in death/s.

    Impaired Driving is going to be the new "Possession of Marihuana" Charge that is coming, except now it will be classified as Driving under the influence of THC. Got some in your system? You're Guilty.
    Got your 600.00 Drivers Responsibility Fee? Better start Saving.
     
    TheMan13 likes this.

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