Does Self Exist? What is the proof?

**Doer** · 06-10-2012, 09:42 AM

In the world's scripture there is often reference to "know self." And you can even read into it, that it is the basis of the particular religion. The "enlightened one" makes a great deal about it. It's often found among the, very few, direct quotes.

But, what is the big deal? Don't know, so let's ignore that and have our Religion.

But, it is a big deal, right? It's the only deal we have. Self.

"I think, therefore I am."

OK, a start. But, with training, or with a peak experience of some kind, we can have periods of non-thought that are difficult to acheive but worth risking death. And we still exist. Self must be more than thinking. But, if we have an Objective Reality that is defined solely by how our sense interprets the physics., does Reality cease when we experience non-thought. I say it begins.

So self is not thinking, feeling, sensing, operating and manipulating. Self is more than that, right? What say you?

What is existence? In dreamless sleep, I still exist, or do, "I?"

**Doer** · 06-10-2012, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by Hitlersmidget

yeah i totally agree with op when we sleep and don't dream we don't exist. but then our cells congregate like 5 min before waking up. last night my lady went to bed before me and when i went in there she was gone but she was there in the morning. explain that bible.

Yeah, it's like nothing and then a switch. Boom. Cognition. We used to play that asphyxiation game. No not auto erotic hanging.

This is a technique where the subject takes deep breaths, holds a comfortable 1/2 breath and the helper pinches off gently, his cartorid arteries from behind. You pass out, but still breathing, the martial arts choke off. Then release the arteries, the supercharged, oxygen rich blood, hits the brain and the experience is weird to say the least. But, not un-pleasant.

I was a hippy then and explicitly trusted everyone in the room. I would not try this today, with so-called friends. You are completely helpless and thoughtless. You come to with no Reality. That's what's weird. I remember once I came around, it only takes a few seconds, but :

Without recall of any past or anticipation of future, Reality was very 2D, a white un-focused expanse. New born. And I was on a ocean of waves. That turned out, after a few more seconds of pure wonder, (no fear,) to be the natural joshing and giggling of the crowd holding me up. I had been unaware of even that. They had lifted me up bodily, flat on my back to 1" from the the celling, completely without my knowledge.

**Zaehet Strife** · 06-10-2012, 12:22 PM

I think we all need to take into consideration that there was a time when there was no consciousness in the universe, matter had not yet evolved to incorporate this. So if at one point there are no conscious beings to observe the universe, would this not mean that the universe would cease to exist as it would not be observable by anything?

This is a rhetorical question, written to make others think, that is all.

**Doer** · 06-10-2012, 01:05 PM

Yes, yes, not defending a position, I totally agree with that. So, then in the same spirit, may I say, that one could then extend the concept of Observer a bit farther? It is certainly far fetched, but some are suggesting somehow, the Universe is self aware and thus is the Observer. And these concepts are just emerging across several lines of thinking, as I read it.

What part we play in the Self Awareness, I'll not attempt to conjecture.

wkipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_universe_hypothesis

http://www.firstthings.com/onthesqua...ating-universe

**high|hgih** · 06-10-2012, 03:45 PM

I think that we all exist regardless our thoughts. Plants go dormant.. Bear hibernate.. Humans go into comas

This universe is weird, it intertwines too perfectly.. Decomposrs, Consumers, Producers, back over again..
decomposers have no conscious. Galaxies are known to be cannibals, digesting other galaxies. Everything is just trying to make its way, including you.

Consciousness is irrelevant. In the end, that rock on your porch served probably more of a purpose than you did

**Doer** · 06-11-2012, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by high|hgih

I think that we all exist regardless our thoughts. Plants go dormant.. Bear hibernate.. Humans go into comas

This universe is weird, it intertwines too perfectly.. Decomposrs, Consumers, Producers, back over again..
decomposers have no conscious. Galaxies are known to be cannibals, digesting other galaxies. Everything is just trying to make its way, including you.

Consciousness is irrelevant. In the end, that rock on your porch served probably more of a purpose than you did

You said you think that. The question, is Obervation necessary for existance? You think, you are, you think.

**Dislexicmidget2021** · 06-11-2012, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by Doer

In the world's scripture there is often reference to "know self." And you can even read into it, that it is the basis of the particular religion. The "enlightened one" makes a great deal about it. It's often found among the, very few, direct quotes.

But, what is the big deal? Don't know, so let's ignore that and have our Religion.

But, it is a big deal, right? It's the only deal we have. Self.

"I think, therefore I am."

OK, a start. But, with training, or with a peak experience of some kind, we can have periods of non-thought that are difficult to acheive but worth risking death. And we still exist. Self must be more than thinking. But, if we have an Objective Reality that is defined solely by how our sense interprets the physics., does Reality cease when we experience non-thought. I say it begins.

So self is not thinking, feeling, sensing, operating and manipulating. Self is more than that, right? What say you?

What is existence? In dreamless sleep, I still exist, or do, "I?"

Before a person has a thought,there is nothing,everything in this world is the perception.Thoughts determine or makeup a persons world,whether they are logical thoughts or totaly skitzoid.The truest nature of mind,is the steady state of being without the illusion of thoughts.We live in the dream,a self awareness dream without full clarity to be lucid in this dream,that is until you practice the clarity through meditation.Existence is nothing,until we give it meaning with ones own perception IMO.Self is a part of that nothing,we have the 5 senses telling us so many things all at once,it is no wonder that we could be fully convinced that existence or reality is certainly more than nothing,Ever had a lucid dream while awake?More difficult than lucid dreaming or at leaste to me it is.And when i say nothing,try not to take it into a negative or positive context,it simply is nothing.