Wow. Zombie thread walks the earth.

@Shroomer:

Your argument for the lack of evidence in the fossil record is based on 150 year old creationist drivel, whether you believe in evolution or not.

There is now substantive evidence in the form of transitional fossils and DNA, ERVs and mitochondrial DNA linking species.

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This conversation seems to be a roundabout argument for the existence of "God". When lacking proof of a god, using gaps in knowledge in unrelated subjects is a poor tactic and hardly scientific.

If you want to prove a god, then prove it by addressing the god directly. Saying "Well, we don't understand concept X yet, hence GOD!" is a common tactic and completely useless and irrelevant.

Evolution neither proves nor disproves god. It is the gradual change over time of organisms into divergent species. So feel free to leave evolution out of religion, and religion out of evolution.

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Religion. Bravely turning its back on reality one universe at a time.

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It is actually called:

Pretty typical accusation there Shroomer... But I think you should work on the subtlety a little bit. Darwin was not a racist, he wasn't sexist, he wasn't the Nazi parties first member... but consider this; even if he was, how would that make his theory any less valid? The theory stands on it's own with or without Darwin, so I don't understand how any of the mans personal opinions weigh in on the validity of the theory of evolution. It would remain just as valid if Adolf Hitler himself came up with it.

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He also clearly states the downfall of his theory.

What exactly do you mean when you say the fossil record is the downfall of the theory of evolution? Every single fossil that has been accepted into the scientific community is evidence supporting the theory. We are talking litterally millions of fossils all over the world, each and every single one of them was found in the correct, predicted, strata layer, organisms go from basic in the early Earth to more complex the older the planet gets. There's absolutley nothing in the fossil record that contradicts the theory of evolution, not one thing. If there is, point it out. Again, you can't just say "it's wrong because I say it's wrong" and not provide any evidence. So why exactly do you feel the fossil record is not valid?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transitional_fossil

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...tional_fossils

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wrong. Darwin's theory is the basis of modern evolutionary theory.

Right, but like I said, the form of evolution Darwin came up with is the most basic version of his theory. A good comparison would be something like saying modern michanics are reading the manuals to repair the ancient model T's, the first cars to come off the assembly line in the early 1900's. See what I mean, if they were to only read those manuals, they'd have no idea how to work on any of the modern cars with the computer and electrical systems we have today right? The theory of evolution has had 150 years to build upon.

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I hate the term 'evolution' because it has soooo many meanings.

"Evolution" means only one thing - change in a living organism over time. If you accept the theory of evolution, you accept that all living organisms on Earth today came from the same common anscestor some time in the distant past.
There are other terms to describe other components of the theory, to be more specific, but that's what the theory describes.

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Right. There is NO proof for macroevolution.

Totally wrong. Macro evolution has been observed in living organisms.

http://richarddawkins.net/article,24...,Science-Daily

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"As a result, individuals on Pod Mrcaru have heads that are longer, wider and taller than those on Pod Kopiste, which translates into a big increase in bite force," says Irschick. "Because plants are tough and fibrous, high bite forces allow the lizards to crop smaller pieces from plants, which can help them break down the indigestible cell walls."

That is a direct observation of macro evolution, physical changes in a daughter branch of the same species of lizards via natural selection, just as Darwin predicted.

http://www.dinosauria.com/jdp/evol/lizard.html

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"One well known macroevolutionary event is the specialization of lizards on Caribbean islands. Lizards have evolved into 150 different species spread across these islands. Losos and his colleagues write that their lizard experiment suggests that macroevolution is simply microevolution observed over a much larger time period."

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Yeah. They carry the information. Where did the information come from.???!!!!!!!!

There's a good talk by Lawrence Krauss about this exact issue. Watch this video;



The entire thing is worth watching. He explains in detail how modern science deals with the issue of "everything coming from nothing".

The real issue is the question. You don't understand that you are asking an illogical question. Just like if I were to ask you what the color purple tasted like. How would you answer that?.. Just like "what was before the big bang?" -- that doesn't make any sense, as time did not exist yet, so you wouldn't be able to say anything was before the big bang.. Some questions just don't make any logical sense.

Explain to me what information you're talking about exactly? Or why you would describe it as such? I don't see any reason why random mutations influenced by the environment the organism is in couldn't manipulate the genes into developing any sort of new beneficial physical feature. Why couldn't it? We've observed it. We know it happens. It does happen. Is God behind the scenes still creating new creatures? Did God give man the ability to manipulate genes and animals environments and breeding conditions to create animals with traits that appeal to us?

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Why does every car have an engine?

But why Carbon? Can you tell me what's so special about that element Shroomer?

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Why wouldn't an intelligent God use what works?

Listen to yourself. You're talking about a supernatural being with unlimited power. Anything would work. The only reason a god would base every single existing life form we know of off the same element, Carbon, would be to attempt to deceive us. That fact alone suggests all life on Earth is related at the very least. Why do the species that most resemble us have the most in common with our genetics? Why do all mammals have four limbs?

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So are you asking why we don't see Java programs in a C++ world?

I'm asking why a god would attempt to deceive us?

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It's a matter of what best fits the evidence.

Duuuuuuuuuuude... you are killing me.. Please look at this and seriously consider what I'm saying. This is important. You make a HUGE ERROR in judgement when you do this.

Say that we had no explination for the information retained inside the cell, we knew NOTHING about it at all, not a damn thing. That's totally false, we have really good theories about the cell, it's evolution, it's components, their jobs, how they all work, etc... we know a shit ton about the cell and how it works... but just for the sake of this hypothetical, say we didn't... ... ...

k... now, go ahead with your theory. "God did it!"? --... OK... What makes you say that? Where is your evidence to support your claim? Your evidence amounts to "the cell is too complicated, I can't understand how it works or how it could have come into existence... so that means God did it!"... Really? ...really? You think that is evidence in support of your theory? No man, that is not how SCIENCE works. A SCIENTIST would know that.

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The Cambrian Explosion.

WTF? The Cambrian Explosion took place 530 million years ago!

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the larger changes are changes in body types and such. I guess that would be phyla.

You seriously are trippin' man! We have evidence of slow gradual changes of tons of different species of animals today. We've got their entire lineage all the way back, millions of years ago to the very beginning of some of them! We've got almost 5.5 million years verified homo evolution with the recent discovery of Ardi. All of them line up perfectly with the predictions of evolution, again, thousands of them..

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"So I picked up some party balloons and a small tube of vaseline, then slippity slip it was in my ass."
-BongJuice

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Acts 17:24-31 The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27 God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28 'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.' 29 "Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone--an image made by man's design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."

are we alive just to be alive?
can you find an answer for anything you look for?

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1.http://gotquestions.org/crucial.html
2. http://www.godandscience.org/
3.http://www.carm.org/christianity/answers-seekers

There is simply no evidence that nature is goal oriented. Species come and they go. T Rex lived for MILLIONS of years.... Millions!! To no avail.... no goal. Now nature has created a being that can spend time contemplating mortality and all the trappings that go along with that. This does not mean that nature has suddenly invented a goal for that being. That is wishful, perhaps ego centric thinking. Has nature made a long lived species? Is being sentient enough of an advantage to keep us from going extinct? No one knows..... there is no plan. There is no pattern to guide nor predict.

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...out
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You haven't countered nothing, because the points you made are not valid, you are basing your counter on information you don't understand, regardless the accuracy of the information, because it does not state what you are saying.. (Brazko)