God is outside of time. Hence, there is NO beginning and NO end to God.
We need to thank Dr. Einstein for this one!!!

__________________
“Some even believe we (the Rockefeller family) are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as ‘internationalists’ and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure – one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it.”
- David Rockefeller, Memoirs, page 405

I'd like some of that stuff you're smoking. Whew!

__________________
“Some even believe we (the Rockefeller family) are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as ‘internationalists’ and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure – one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it.”
- David Rockefeller, Memoirs, page 405

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God is outside of time. Hence, there is NO beginning and NO end to God.

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You see. I am well aware of evolutionary theory and science as a whole. I am neither stupid nor uneducated. I am a scientist and I always have been.

You may be a scientist in the sense you have earned a degree in a field of science, but you clearly show that doesn't make a person a scientist. To a scientist, nothing is outside of time, as that's NOT WHAT SCIENCE DEALS WITH. Science ONLY deals with the reality we occupy, which includes time. Science has absolutely nothing to say about anything outside of space or time, which you already admitted includes God, so how would you suggest a 'scientist' like yourself observes it/him? Answer that.

And just as a side note, what kind of bullshit non answer is that anyway? He's outside of space and time... Shroomer, dude, can't you see that's just a fallback they came up with designed SPECIFICALLY so that that question cannot be answered logically? That is clear as day.

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Yeah. Like Newton, right?

Statistics are against you my friend.

http://www.physorg.com/news102700045.html

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/sci_relig.htm

The first one says that 52% of scientists have no religious affiliation, compared to 14% of the general public.

The second one surveyed "greater" scientists (defined as those belonging to the National Academy of Sciences). It found that 65% of biological scientists expressed a "disbelief in a personal God", and 79% of physical scientists. Most of the others were agnostics. Only 7% expressed a "belief in a personal God."

Also, the scenario was essentailly... "believe in God or die", whether you actually believe or just "believe"... it's that or die. Hey uhh... I choose "believe"! No question. If that were the scenario today, you don't think I'd lie out my ass about how much I believed in God to not be killed by all the crazy people around me?? Think it through buddy, you'd do the same.

Don't get me wrong, that's not to say those men weren't actually truly believers in their faith, I'm just saying that was the law back in the day, you can't rule anything out.

Also, check the dates;

Newton - 17th century

Kepler - 16th century..

A lot of what is known today about evolutionary theory and biology was not known to them.

Though none of that even matters... argument from authority. Doesn't hold any water with me... it doesn't matter to me what any other 'scientist' believed, or what anyone thinks they may have believed. Fact is, they could be extremely smart but incredibly ignorant, anyone could be. Someone else's belief or disbelief in a God doesn't mean and shouldn't mean anything, it does not have the power to influence my decisions. Those men you listed were no doubt geniuses in their fields and contributed a ton to humanity, but not everyone is right about everything all the time.

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The human race.

DING DING DING! Give this man some +rep!

__________________
"So I picked up some party balloons and a small tube of vaseline, then slippity slip it was in my ass."
-BongJuice

Get it right. 3 degrees.
This shows how ignorant you are, along with CrackerJax. The dream of a unified field theory is one that is independent of a background space-time, one that at least explains the origin of space-time. Hence, a field theory independent of space-time, so to speak. This is the Holy Grail of physics. You are just as ignorant as CrackerJax on this one. You have no idea what high energy physics is about. I do. I have a degree in it. CERN has computer programs that I wrote, tracking particles through CMS's endcaps. Their cooling system for their electronics is partially my work. I am tired of you fools trying to tell me what science is really all about. I live it!!
Try reading Lee Smolin's Three Roads to Quantum Gravity. He does a good job of explaining what I am talking about, and he is an atheist, as far as I can tell. He actually has theories about cosmology and natural selection that you would enjoy. You'll see what I am talking about. The point is:

YOU ARE WRONG.
Science, at its highest level, that is, high energy physics, is ALL about what happens outside of time. If we understood that, we could fully understand the big bang, or any other singularity.




An explanation of the origin of space-time would only explain how God did things. It wouldn't necessarily explain who or what he is. I don't understand the question.

You are a fool. The fact that God is outside of time is an incredible scientific breakthrough. THIS IS WHAT GENERAL and SPECIAL RELATIVITY IS ALL ABOUT!!!! Ever hear of them? You certainly don't understand them.

This is a perfect example of how science solved biblical paradoxes that have perplexed theologians for centuries and/or millenia. This is why I am in love with science and always will be. Too bad you don't understand the first thing about it.

whoopdee freaking do. I can tell you what I have seen: many great physicists are "religious", by your definition. 7% is still a large amount. Are these 7% bad scientists????
That was my point.

Stop reacting in emotion and deal with logic.


This is not an appeal to authority. A statement was made that stated that good scientists aren't religious. My counterexamples proved the statement wrong.

Also, Schrodinger and Heisenberg were after Darwin.

Dear God, you are not very logical.

Again. I'm not trying to appeal to their authority as 'scientists.'

__________________
“Some even believe we (the Rockefeller family) are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as ‘internationalists’ and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure – one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it.”
- David Rockefeller, Memoirs, page 405

What does that have to do with Religion?






This sort of skewed perspective is EXACTLY why the vast majority of scientists don't carry a faith with them. It alters perceptions before they even begin. The space time continuum should be studied and theorized WITHOUT an objective already in mind. I hope you don't bring that altered perception to work with you.


General and special relativity are NOT a scientific breakthrough FOR the existence of G*D. Now I'm starting to think you are working in your garage.

Seems you don't understand the role of science.



7% is NOT large. it is very small. Very. 93% are not religious....that would be called, the VAST majority. Rightfully so of course....rightfully so. Unless a scientist is in a protected position, they will keep mum about their religious beliefs, if they want to be taken seriously that is.




No, 7% means you are wrong.... incredibly wrong.

Again, a few needles in the haystack. Far more (thankfully) go the other way.... the way of true logic, sans religion, which is empty of logic.

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...out
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You haven't countered nothing, because the points you made are not valid, you are basing your counter on information you don't understand, regardless the accuracy of the information, because it does not state what you are saying.. (Brazko)

Good post CJ, I can't +rep you but you deserve it!

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Get it right. 3 degrees.

As I said...

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they could be extremely smart but incredibly ignorant, anyone could be.

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This shows how ignorant you are, along with CrackerJax. The dream of a unified field theory is one that is independent of a background space-time, one that at least explains the origin of space-time. Hence, a field theory independent of space-time, so to speak. This is the Holy Grail of physics. You are just as ignorant as CrackerJax on this one. You have no idea what high energy physics is about. I do. I have a degree in it. CERN has computer programs that I wrote, tracking particles through CMS's endcaps. Their cooling system for their electronics is partially my work. I am tired of you fools trying to tell me what science is really all about. I live it!!

I think you missed my point. The tools we have today, at present, do not have the ability to measure anything outside of our universe. You already admitted this would include God. How do you suggest a scientist like yourself would measure the existence of God? Pretty simple question right?

Explain to me how high energy physics explains what happens outside of time.

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An explanation of the origin of space-time would only explain how God did things. It wouldn't necessarily explain who or what he is. I don't understand the question.

wtf are you talking about? An explination of the origin of space-time wouldn't explain anything about a God at all. If we figured out exactly how everything happened, you're saying it would all lead right back go "God did it!"!?

That seems like a bit of a conflict of interest in the persuit of genuine knowlege to me buddy...

So when you get to the end of the rabbit hole and there's no magic man to give you marshmallows, do you think your mind would be able to handle it, or would there be one there regardless of what reality had to say about it?

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You are a fool. The fact that God is outside of time is an incredible scientific breakthrough. THIS IS WHAT GENERAL and SPECIAL RELATIVITY IS ALL ABOUT!!!! Ever hear of them? You certainly don't understand them.

Well, first problem with that is... yeah, we have not positively identified God yet so uhh.. how would that be considered an "incredible scientific breakthrough"? Going by that standard, I have tons of "incredible scientific breakthroughs" sitting in my living room!

Didn't really address the point I made, that is, how authors of these texts inserted things like that, illogical reasoning and circular logic, the fact one must have faith, and essentially believe because someone told you to believe and nothing else, just so people would feel comfortable with themselves about lying to themselves. Fact is, most of them don't even ever realize it, they don't think about it, they think they're being good believers and they're going to be rewarded in the end, thoughts like that don't pass through your mind until you start questioning your actual belief system, reality, existence.

Howbout all the other seemingly contradictory claims the bible makes that science slaps back in it's place and the churches have to apologize for or admit defeat?

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whoopdee freaking do. I can tell you what I have seen: many great physicists are "religious", by your definition. 7% is still a large amount. Are these 7% bad scientists????

What world do you live in where 7% is a "large amount"???

Your point is stupid. So what if a religious scientist is good. What the hell does that prove?? Same thing it would about an atheist scientist being good. Nothing... The point being made here is that there are clearly more scientists who do not believe in a personal God.

What that is saying is that the more a person is educated, the smarter a person is, the less likely they are to hold a religious position. Now think about that... why would more intelligent people, you know, the ones who have studied the sciences of the earth, geology, astronomy, chemestry, physics, biology, etc. believe there is no God, and the less intelligent people, that of the general public, believe there is?... This is where I'd say "it doesn't take a rocket scientist.." but you have three science degrees! You might actually be one!

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This is not an appeal to authority. A statement was made that stated that good scientists aren't religious. My counterexamples proved the statement wrong.

lol, bringing your religion into it again? Didn't you say earlier how I argue from a position of emotion?.. (that argument being common among believers, again.. *seriously I've heard everything before.. this is kind of dissapointing..*, I'm angry at God! I don't want him infringin' on the way I live my life so I'm going to choose to not believe in him.. yeah, I just wanna sin man.. I love it, I love sinning, it makes me feel great...)

How far after Darwin? You realize there are plenty of people today who do not accept the theory of evolution... the MODERN theory.. yeah...just sayin'.. (...like, I know a couple of them.. that's pretty damn common if you ask me)

__________________
"So I picked up some party balloons and a small tube of vaseline, then slippity slip it was in my ass."
-BongJuice

with god, it's not just a question of beliefe or not, it's the question of just why do i want or need him in my life? all these christians saying "oh life is so good knowing that god is with me everywhere i go, i feel content and blah blah".

well you know what, i feel no different to you in any way, except that you seem to need to rely on someone to get through your day, i just get through it. are we stronger people, emotionally and mentally than christians then? as we're both getting the same out of life, yet you need someone to point you the right way, well, his way, etc etc

as said, i see no reason to accept god into my life whether he be real or not, he's got nothing to offer me

About two-thirds of scientists believe in God Nearly 38 percent of natural scientists -- people in disciplines like physics, chemistry and biology -- said they do not believe in God. http://www.livescience.com/strangene...tists_god.html







.

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1.http://gotquestions.org/crucial.html
2. http://www.godandscience.org/
3.http://www.carm.org/christianity/answers-seekers

It doesn't!
That is not what I said.
What I said was that a theory independent of a space-time background is the dream of high energy theorists. Smolin's book does a great job of explaining what I am talking about.


This is important because if we can get a good theory that's independent of space-time, we can understand quantum gravity and how the big bang singularity came into being. By extension, we will also understand black holes.
So. Yes. This is a very important question to physics, and it is all outside of time.


You stated earlier that:
I am simply stating that science, at its deepest level (high energy theory), is desparately looking for a theory that describes exactly what happened outside of time that gave rise to all space-time.

__________________
“Some even believe we (the Rockefeller family) are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as ‘internationalists’ and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure – one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it.”
- David Rockefeller, Memoirs, page 405

Yeah? Find me a source. Everything I typed into google came up more atheist scientists, less religious ones.



And Shroomer, address the rest of my post please. I made a few points I wanted you to specifically reply to.

__________________
"So I picked up some party balloons and a small tube of vaseline, then slippity slip it was in my ass."
-BongJuice