The Truth On White Widow!!

Ripped from Thcfarmer:

Now to clear up the story and myths that go around, due mainly to people in the industry(other seed companies) who are more interested in making money than giving information that is correct. Haze brothers worked on the Haze’s and they did get to Sam and Nevil(owner of THE SEEDBANK…and then Ben Dronkers retailed Nevils strains under the label of SENSI SEEDBANK after Nevil had some jail time in Australia .Nevil was the first Seed Bank or company to exist in Holland so his legendary strains such as Northern lights 5, Ultra skunk , Nl5 Haze, Early pearl , Early girl, Shiva Skunk….and so on became the basis for a lot of offspring seed companies that followed in the 90s.

In fact companies like Dutch passion and Nirvana began by copying Nevils seeds from the F1 seed…but most of them would never say so as they are Dutch business men who see dollars first and not genetics….Sam and Nevil use to work a bit on strains together but when it was revealed that Sam and his crew of Americans in Holland all were part of informants for the DEA in America on a radio program in Holland they split to the UK to do other things. Sam never started or owned a seed company so his claim to all the strains that became famous years ago are not really warranted. He did however do a lot of work on Skunk and shared some seed with Nevil, but as you know for breeding you cannot just take any plant and make a strain like Greenhouse does nowadays. I was working in Australia on varieties like Mullumbimby madness and Thai and Columbia strains of sativas, as well as a lot of original Afghan stock. When I came to Holland in 1990 with my seed stock I linked up with Nevil , and used Arjan’s coffeeshops to introduce strains of cannabis and a little later the seed versions, but we never gave any of the plants to him.Arjan just sold seed produced by Nevil and myself. I co founded the Greenhouse Seed Company with Arjan in 1994(unlike Arjan’s claim it began in 1985 from him alone…he was angry that I sold my half share to him and left in 1998 to Switzerland and to open Mr Nice Seedbank with Nevil and Howard…but I was and still am the sole owner of MNS). In 1995 I came out with the seed version of White widow, then White Rhino 1996 and White Shark 1997…el nino1998 , Himalayan gold and so on. Nevil and I co worked on some Haze strains during the early to mid 90s of which Super Silver Haze and Mango Haze were two strains that eventually came out of this work.The seed was sold under the Greenhouse Seed co label but Nevil held those plants and only sold the seed of these varieties as well as the weed version that won all those awards.So as to help Arjan sell the correct weed we set up our own independent grow rooms and produced those weeds and Arjan bought them all so as no other Dutch shop could compete. In those days the Greenhouse sold the correct weed and seed.But in 1998 when I won all the cups with Nevil(including Shantibaba’s Hash for best nederhash) I was givien a better offer by a Swiss group to set up a medical cannabis farm and distil oil…so I sold my share to Arjan and left. A lot of people were shocked as they thought we were a solid unit but actually Arjan was over the top already with his success and his ego was too much to listen to and considering the Swiss thing had unlimited possibility where as Holland was stuck at being glorified dope dealers….as it still is today. Medical was more my interest.

I took all my plants which made the seeds, especially my fathers and Nevil put all his plants with me so together we had a library of all genetics possible in the cannabis world. Nevil soon sold his part in one of the coffeeshops and had a big problem with Arjan too…but it took another year or two for them to split. Take a look at the High times Cannabis cup after 1998, so 1999 onwards….only while Nevil was there did they win with SSH, but that soon left with Nevil and Arjan even got caught cheating or trying to bribe people to win cup…so was disqualified one year.

A lot of stories exist about the Widow family and a lot of people had access to some of the female versions I left in Holland and soon began claiming to be the creature etc….but the original seed versions that won the first cup in 1995 came from my plants not anyone else’s. Till today we have all the plants in original form. Franco, the Italian working for Arjan now does not even know the original plants as he did not come on the scene till after I left. I have nothing against him at all but he is paid by Arjan andis part of that show so believes what ever is feed to him. The GHSco tried to get things going by buying some seed Nev and I had for sale from a guy in Holland during this time. The guy called me up and told me Arjan bought a few thousand euros of this seed and a year later came out with seed under the well known names he had used previously. The growers could not know this until they grew it out and considering a lot of people never grew it before they did not even know what they were looking at and still do not.So many seed companies use the names like White widow but the genetics are all different. I wrote out the true origins of the plant and everyone copied that so it looks like everyone is selling the same genetics but it is they are all selling a name that sells…nothing more.Ask Franco to show you a photo of the original parents that make the widow…he cannot as he has never seen them.The Ghsco linked up with others like Ingemar who claims to be the widow breeder but he is only a grower and he never came out with a seed version until after I made it in 1995. But all the facts have become mixed and people try to confuse the grower by claiming things that no one else can prove to be correct or wrong…as there are no rules in the seed game since all cannabis is actually not recognized in the official plant world as sub species due to it being drug related. So in actual fact no one owns nothing…even all the trademarked R after the names you see from various seed companies are all bullshit as they are not really able to protect any names as the plants do not officially exist…but that is another story.

In the late 90s I gave plants to Soma, and he began a seed company a year later too…mixing his skunks to my males. This has occurred many times to me just look at the Spanish seed companies and 10 years ago…none existed until I went there in 1995 and gave away 3 kilos of seed to growers via Canamo magazine….but that is another story too.

Now the female seed story saved a lot of seed companies who never really breed seed as you only need a F1 female and chemicals….no need for a male…..so go figure why companies like the Greenhouse or Dinafem etc…set up selling female seed…..the money the demand and not really needing skill with males are all prerequisites to make a female seed. It is therefore obvious to me why Arjan (who is a very marketing person nothing more) and Franco come out every year with a new name plant…they buy an original F1 seed and donk it with silver nitrates and there you have there products…but now adays there are so many doing it it is incredible. Even companies have called me to tell me they feminised a clone of Critical mass in spain and call it critical plus….but say nothing more than thanks. So actually I really do not care any longer about other companies and what they say. We at MNS sell the real versions that won the original awards and made the legends…nowadays it is all confused and everyone is going feminised…except MNS. We exist so people who like to breed will be able to with the original true breed plants that come from selection and natural collection from traveling around the world. As they say, an empty barrel makes a louder noise…and we are full.

ShantiBaba

Peace GS

Here Is Skunkmans Reply"

deleted thread on icmag...

Originally Posted by Sam_Skunkman
I just read this and while I respect Shanti in many cases in this article he is just plain wrong. ( if Shanti really wrote it?)

"Haze brothers worked on the Haze’s and they did get to Sam and Nevil(owner of THE SEEDBANK…and then Ben Dronkers retailed Nevils strains under the label of SENSI SEEDBANK after Nevil had some jail time in Australia .Nevil was the first Seed Bank or company to exist in Holland so his legendary strains such as Northern lights 5, Ultra skunk , Nl5 Haze, Early pearl , Early girl, Shiva Skunk….and so on became the basis for a lot of offspring seed companies that followed in the 90s."

The Haze Bros were my next door neighbors in Santa Cruz in the 70's, I am still in close contact. I have asked them both about Neville and neither has ever met him or supplied him with Original Haze seeds. I started Sacred Seeds 9 years earlier then Neville, and when I met Neville he promised me not to knock-off my seeds if he could buy them, I said it's fine if you make hybrids with my varieties if the other parent was not my variety. At the time he was selling imported bag seeds from coffee shops at .25 a pop. And trying to grow but with little success, Neville within one year or two was knocking off all my varieties that I brought to him, indoors under lights, like Skunk #1 Original Haze, Early Girl, Early Pearl, and a whole lot more, none were originally bred by Neville, even Northern Lights was bred by someone in Washington state, not Neville. The varieties listed did become the basis for Neville and as stated none were originally bred by Neville.

"Sam and Nevil use to work a bit on strains together"

I never worked with Neville to develop any thing, I did not really trust him. And I was right. He lied to get what he wanted and then ran with the ball.

"but when it was revealed that Sam and his crew of Americans in Holland all were part of informants for the DEA in America on a radio program in Holland they split to the UK to do other things.

I never split to the UK I have lived in the same house in Amsterdam for the last 25 years. As for me being an informer for the DEA, either show me proof, please list a single person I ever informed on or just shut up, you are being used by Neville to cover his own misdeeds. I have never helped any police, period.
But like being accused of being a chid molester it is a charge that causes some people to lose all common sense and just lash out at the accused guilty or not.

"Sam never started or owned a seed company so his claim to all the strains that became famous years ago are not really warranted. He did however do a lot of work on Skunk and shared some seed with Nevil, but as you know for breeding you cannot just take any plant and make a strain like Greenhouse does nowadays."

I never started or owned any seed company? What a fucking joke, I started the worlds first seed company Sacred Seeds, in California in 1976. I still have all the original packages and seed catalogs from then. Yeah I did a little work with Skunk #1, like creating it from scratch, a stable hybrid of Indica and Sativa that breed true.
And I did not share seed with Neville, I sold it to him, with a promise from Neville that he would not knock off my varieties, which he did almost immediately.
To give Neville his due he did start selling seeds and posting seeds to anyone anywhere, something I was afraid to do because of my fear of the American justice system, that did catch Neville.

"When I came to Holland in 1990 with my seed stock I linked up with Nevil "

And this is why you have no idea what happened before 1990.

Neville also sold all my varieties like Skunk #1, Original Haze, and another dozen of my varieties that I developed or helped develop and had permission from the breeders to run with like the Original Haze, to Ben Dronkers of Sinsi Seeds, for a reported million, including Cannabis Castle.

About the only thing that Shanti and I agree on is feminized seed, I don't like it and have never sold one. As for all the rest, Shanti was not there and is getting his truth from Neville, whom I know is a liar, cheat and thief. I was there and am speaking the truth. I have no ax to grind, to me it is all just water under the bridge, but I don't like people spouting revisionist history like it was gospel truth. Shanti maybe you need to stick to after 1990 when you showed up on the scene, then I believe what you have to say, but brother you have zero idea of the real truth of what happened between me and Neville as only me Neville and RCC were there.
I though you liked and believed RCC, ask him.
I don't blame Shanti that much Neville is a slippery guy that has fooled a lot of people in the past, me, Ben, Shanti and a whole lot of others.
The best way to remember him is as the first to ship seeds anywhere in the world for that even I liked him, as I was too chicken or too smart to do so.
-Sam

T Ray from this community must be given credit for finding this thread and bringing it to my attention. i have not read it all, but it could be the solid truth behind the White Widow legend plant. it could be a "he said, he said" argument. i would really love to talk to someone that was there in the mid nineties. id love to be a fly on the wall in the room when all this was going down. ever since 1998, first time i smoked White Widow i have been fascinated with this strain. even today and all the ease of buying seeds off the internet it is hard to say if someone has the true, the real White Widow. lots of seeds banks sell this marvelous strain, but it is really hard to say who has the true genetics from Shanti. i wanted the truth, or the story, to be heard. +rep for my time, if you like what you read.

Australia caught neville not america. from what i have read and who i have talked to it seems like neville and sam were breeders who worked on projects, maybe not together, but eventually sold to the same people like dronkers. seems like sam is just bitter he never made it big. i would chalk it up to not really wanting to get into the game as he himself claims in his refutation. neville is still in the game and making money where sam is not. who is the true father of these genetics, is like asking which grandfather walked longer in the snow to school, we will never know. Just as now 95% of "breeders' are just reworking someone else work and claiming their new fire as theirs. Buy from companies that work landraces like mandala, strains to get new and legit strains!

Ha,go figure,a mud slinging contest between breeders.

How is this relevant to anything,all i read was a bunch of guys talking shit about each other with not one thing being cleared up.

it doesn't clear anything up at all. its just for information purposes. its more of a "who do you believe" type of situation. i just see a lot of people posting about White Widow on threads. so, i thought i would do my part by clearing up a much of the confusion, for newbies, mostly. it is open for debate still who created the original White Widow, but it will lead a few to want to know SOME of the story behind the legendary strain. guess you didn't like it.

Where is Nevil? And who has the original Nevils Haze?

panhead said:

How is this relevant to anything,all i read was a bunch of guys talking shit about each other with not one thing being cleared up.

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For those who are older and who have grown for many years the given account does match what was at the time reported. Like any event from the past, those who were alive at the time and knew about events of the time can later read accounts of the events of the past and know if they are accurate or not. But others who were not alive at the time, were alive but to young to be aware of the events, or who were alive and old enough to know but who did not follow such events, to them any account of past events is seen as being questionable and they are likely to attribute more truth and accuracy to what they think events were like or want they want to believe than to believe facts.

This story is gettin old. But the positive that comes out of it is new growers can get an idea of how shady the business can be. I myself had white widow fever in 2003. It was the flavor of the month for a long time. But now that i have a little experience in the growing game and a LOT of experience in the research game, I am more interested in the medical strains, the strong hybrids, the california genetics that have hit the market. Reserva Privada,DNA, Sannies, and a few others have taken this thing to another level. Hell just wait another 10 years and imagine the strains that will have been created. Breeding properly is more important that seed selling and advertising. Just my take.

Jack Harer said:

Where is Nevil?

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If you mean what is Neville's physical location, I cannot say for sure. But when it comes to being online he is somewhat in seclusion. He grew tired of all the mud slinging and ignorant claims of some that is accepted by others as being fact and because of that he has not been active online for some time now. I received a PM from him a few months back, so I know that he at least still lurks on the Mr. Nice Seeds forum and will have an exchange with people in PMs if they are not the type of people who drove him off, but I do not expect that we will be hearing from Nevil in any open forum for some time to come, if ever at all.

I do not blame Nevil for giving up on the people on grow sites. They are overloaded with self-proclaimed experts whose information came from someone who was repeating what someone else said who was repeating what someone else said who was repeating what someone else said who was repeating what someone else who did not know dick said. But because it has been repeated so many times online and can be found so many places online it has taken on a whiff of believability and an appearance of truth. Sadly, on grow sites that is often times more than enough to trump truth and fact in the eyes of many. Once fantasy becomes reality in a growers mind you might as well not bother to attempt to argue with them because they will argue their belief until the cows come home, because they are positive they know the truth ...................... because what they believe has been repeated so many times by people who know as little as they do.

that term "medical" is far over used and played out! nobody has every really had true "medical marijuana". let me just tell you this. you have NEVER smoked government weed. there is like 9 or 11 people in the United States that have their federal Marijuana Licenses. the stuff those people smoke is given to them by the Federal government. not this little mom and pop dispencaries that ANYONE can own any operate and not have nay knowledge of real true good weed. real medicinal marijuana is myth. unless you are one of the 9 people in the states that have that script, your not smoking anything anymore special then what anyone can get off any seed distributor website. and to many White Widow is still the best they have smoked. its all how it is grown man! plus everyone is dif. what i may like you may not. so many factors take play when growing. there is infinite options.

jimdandy said:

This story is gettin old. But the positive that comes out of it is new growers can get an idea of how shady the business can be. I myself had white widow fever in 2003. It was the flavor of the month for a long time. But now that i have a little experience in the growing game and a LOT of experience in the research game, I am more interested in the medical strains, the strong hybrids, the california genetics that have hit the market. Reserva Privada,DNA, Sannies, and a few others have taken this thing to another level. Hell just wait another 10 years and imagine the strains that will have been created. Breeding properly is more important that seed selling and advertising. Just my take.

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probably just a bunch of mis-identified-made-up-stolen-black-market-strains-that-have-been-invented-under-another-name. its very hard to create a "new"strain these days. i do not believe that just because you cross something you have a new strain. look how many times White Widow has been "created" unless you have a seed stock from a breeder who bred 15-20 years ago, your going to be hard fetched to find any really newly identified strains. i have seeds from a strain that a breeder created over 20 years ago. even if i cross that strain with something it will still be a cross, nothing new really. but you can try and make me believe differently.

Brick Top said:

For those who are older and who have grown for many years the given account does match what was at the time reported. Like any event from the past, those who were alive at the time and knew about events of the time can later read accounts of the events of the past and know if they are accurate or not. But others who were not alive at the time, were alive but to young to be aware of the events, or who were alive and old enough to know but who did not follow such events, to them any account of past events is seen as being questionable and they are likely to attribute more truth and accuracy to what they think events were like or want they want to believe than to believe facts.

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Hmmm,that sheds a new light in my mind,im 55 yrs old & vaguely remember some of the arguements years back,i think ive heard some of this before back on overgrow.

I didnt realize the point of the post,it came off as mud slinging instead of reporting facts for posterity,mostly because i had forgotten all about all that stuff its been so long.

I wasnt trying to bust anybodys chops who is just trying to inform the community im just leary of one sided issues.

Carry on,my bad,some more info would help tie things together if any more info is available.

I guess for those that believe in the creation theory, God is the original breeder huh? Most seeds if grown properly and harvested at the right time will give you good weed Im sure. Of course there will be crap phenos. I applaud the great breeders of the world for learning how to stabilize strains and are diligent enough to remove the shit genetics from the market. When I first started growing I could only go by the descriptions onlie given by the companies. GHS seemed to be an obvious choice because they were Cannabis Cup champs all the time. But wait, hold on. When you research deeply and hear the opinions of others and espescially Shanti, you may think twice about them. Arjan does seem to be an arrogant egostistical greedy prick!!! And he appears to be dishonest also!!! It is obvious to me that this man is a salesman and nothing more. Looks like he tries to capitalize off whatever is popular at the moment. Chemdog,Trainwreck, Exodous Cheese are a few that come to mind. Don,t get me wrong they have some decent stuff (super lemon haze), after all it is cannabis. But after I purchased their so called White Rhino last year and grew it out, I swear they will never get a dime of my money again. it appears as i said earlier that most newbs go for GHS, but experienced farmers wont touch them with a 10 foot pole!!

some people forget what happened, some people do not know what happened, and there is people like me who just want information of such strains with so much controversy surrounding the said strain. if i had more info to provide i would, but this is all i have seem to found. guess nobody wants to give me any +rep.

link

http://coto2.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/prop-19-monsanto-and-gmo-terminator-cannabis/

food for thought

does that have anything to do with White Widow?