What is your problem

yep, what you claim I am saying and what I'm saying is the same thing.

in some bizarro bucktard world

ginwilly said:

yep, what you claim I am saying and what I'm saying is the same thing.

in some bizarro bucktard world

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it's true, you've been duped into arguing against common sense.

it probably wasn't that hard, republicans like you don't have much common sense to begin with and the whole seductive misogyny angle made it irresistible.

ginwilly said:

Before I go on, are you in the same camp as buck that not paying for other's people shit is the same as denying them their rights to have that shit? If you are, I'll stop now.

Because to me it looks you are finally admitting that people are being forced to pay for something others can pay for themselves or get for free at any planned parenthood, against their religion, but too bad.

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That is exactly what I am saying. Too bad. Tough cookies. Grow up. Etc. Although you're not really "paying" much for said free products (If they were expensive they would never be free, anywhere. You don't see free clinics handing out Magic Johnson quality AIDS cocktails, and having dealt with medical bills a lot in the past few years you can buy about a bazillion condoms for what one surgery costs)

ginwilly said:

Ace, if the morality issue is a non-factor to you, let me try a different angle on why this bill has holes.

A lesbian couple MUST pay for colonoscopy coverage they will never use. A strict catholic MUST pay for birth control coverage they will never use. Does this benefit the individual or the insurance companies? Is that what you were told the ACA would do? How does this lower costs for people?

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First off, women also get colonoscopies, but that's not the point and I'm not here to argue semantics like I don't have a real point to make. I'm not saying that the bill doesn't have holes, but I believe we should all pay a standard percent of our income and have full health coverage. I am not arguing that it is a good bill, I am arguing against the idea that it breaches religious freedoms. I don't think that people who never get injured should pay less because they have been lucky, and I don't think that religious people should pay less because they don't use condoms. Religious freedom, like any freedom, has limits. Churches already get out of paying taxes on their income, I think it's about time this ridiculous double standard came to an end. We all pay for shit we don't believe in, religion has enjoyed an aura of untouchable reverence for two long. If I am a Breatharian, am I allowed to withhold food and water from my children, even to the point where they die? Would feeding my children be breaching my religious rights? Or, can we agree, like adults, that religious freedom only extends to a certain point?

Ace, I'm in agreement with you that religious freedom has limits and I'm in agreement with George Carlin when he says tax the church.

I agree that religious freedom should be stopped when it hurts others. I just don't see your logic that it's hurting others by not wanting to pay for their own personal birth control coverage and even implying it's remotely the same as withholding food and water from children. The fuck?

If you can't back their right to not want to pay this on religious grounds, surely you can agree that it's a cost that is forced on consumers that only benefits insurance companies. How can you support this?

UncleBuck said:

it's true, you've been duped into arguing against common sense.

it probably wasn't that hard, republicans like you don't have much common sense to begin with and the whole seductive misogyny angle made it irresistible.

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Dance puppet dance!!

ginwilly said:

Dance puppet dance!!

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i've already caught you preemptively excusing misogyny, stop being all bitter and asshurt about it.

ginwilly said:

Ace, I'm in agreement with you that religious freedom has limits and I'm in agreement with George Carlin when he says tax the church.

I agree that religious freedom should be stopped when it hurts others. I just don't see your logic that it's hurting others by not wanting to pay for their own personal birth control coverage and even implying it's remotely the same as withholding food and water from children. The fuck?

If you can't back their right to not want to pay this on religious grounds, surely you can agree that it's a cost that is forced on consumers that only benefits insurance companies. How can you support this?

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"i don't see how making access to needed medicine tougher can hurt someone!" - ginwilly

"if you really want to stick it to the rich, do a consumption tax" - ginwilly

"why is everyone laughing at me?" - ginwilly

UncleBuck said:

i've already caught you preemptively excusing misogyny, stop being all bitter and asshurt about it.

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preemptively excusing it or preemptively calling it your new dog whistle and being shown correct by you? Stop being all whiney and dishonest about it. You got busted little puppet, now dance!!

so predictable, so easy but getting so boring, later days little tiny housebitch puppet. You'll have to get your sadistic trolling needs somewhere else. In the mean time though

ginwilly said:

You got busted little puppet, now dance!!

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wait, you sat by while people made misogynistic comments, preemptively mocked anyone who would point out said misogyny, and somehow that equals ''buck got busted' in your mind?

you have some curious (euphemism for retarded) thought patterns.

ginwilly said:

Ace, I'm in agreement with you that religious freedom has limits and I'm in agreement with George Carlin when he says tax the church.

I agree that religious freedom should be stopped when it hurts others. I just don't see your logic that it's hurting others by not wanting to pay for their own personal birth control coverage and even implying it's remotely the same as withholding food and water from children. The fuck?

If you can't back their right to not want to pay this on religious grounds, surely you can agree that it's a cost that is forced on consumers that only benefits insurance companies. How can you support this?

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To humanity as a whole, the greatest danger to our long term survival is our population problem. I support anything and everything that helps to combat that, especially when ignorance and unquestioned faith are the only obstacles to that end. The only reason any religion is against birth control is because religion only survives if people teach it to their children, you could never sell religion to a group of educated adults who had never been exposed to it as children, as it flies in the face of all logic and evidence. No one who has facts and supporting evidence asks you to believe anything on blind faith. A miracle is something that cannot happen without the direct intervention of god, thus every miracle would be proof of god. But now that we have ways of collecting empirical evidence and actually testing the validity of people's ridiculous claims, they tell us that "Proof denies faith, God wants you to BELIEVE in him and if he proved his existence you couldn't BELIEVE because you would KNOW, and KNOWING is different from having FAITH". It is the classic argument of the con man. The evidence goes against me so I preach that the evidence is wrong. And adults would catch it if they hadn't been conditioned from birth. So religions want you to have hundreds of children because each kid you have is an extra follower that will believe without questioning because it was drilled into them by their parents, who by our biology we are told to listen to. Religions don't care that they will destroy the human race, they just care which is the most popular one when it all ends.

ginwilly said:

I agree that religious freedom should be stopped when it hurts others. I just don't see your logic that it's hurting others by not wanting to pay for their own personal birth control coverage and even implying it's remotely the same as withholding food and water from children. The fuck?

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It is the much hated slippery slope argument. Allowing religions to deny people free access to birth control leads to Catholic countries like Ireland denying abortions to women who then die from complications from an unnecessary pregnancy. But I guess unborn fetuses without the ability to sustain their own life, that only exist because people made it hard as shit to get birth control, have more of a right to life than the living, breathing, life having women who are unfortunate enough to be infected with them.

Ace Yonder said:

It is the much hated slippery slope argument. Allowing religions to deny people free access to birth control leads to Catholic countries like Ireland denying abortions to women who then die from complications from an unnecessary pregnancy. But I guess unborn fetuses without the ability to sustain their own life, that only exist because people made it hard as shit to get birth control, have more of a right to life than the living, breathing, life having women who are unfortunate enough to be infected with them.

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Not only are religious people NOT denying people free access to BC pills, they are being forced to pay for coverage against their beliefs at the benefit of insurance companies instead of the individual. Stop letting your emotions get in the way of the truth. Look at the arguments you are using to support your stance. People won't feed their children women will die because they can't get an abortion. This little gem was a payoff to the insurance cartel, nothing more. You were sold a bill of goods that was not what they said.

If I can't convince with a moral argument, and I can't convince with you a constitutional argument, and I can't convince with a logical argument, then I can't convince you. I wish you had just said up front that you support the bill no matter what, it would have saved us both some time.

ginwilly said:

they are being forced to pay for coverage against their beliefs

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wheaton college said the same thing, too bad they didn't realize they already offered it in their plans.

it's all manufactured bullshit designed for idiots to eat up.

go suck dick in a hobby lobby.

UncleBuck said:

wheaton college said the same thing, too bad they didn't realize they already offered it in their plans.

it's all manufactured bullshit designed for idiots to eat up.

go suck dick in a hobby lobby.

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so it's your stance that everyone is lying about paying for coverage they don't want or need?

Uncle Buck everyone.

ginwilly said:

Not only are religious people NOT denying people free access to BC pills, they are being forced to pay for coverage against their beliefs at the benefit of insurance companies instead of the individual. Stop letting your emotions get in the way of the truth. Look at the arguments you are using to support your stance. People won't feed their children women will die because they can't get an abortion. This little gem was a payoff to the insurance cartel, nothing more. You were sold a bill of goods that was not what they said.

If I can't convince with a moral argument, and I can't convince with you a constitutional argument, and I can't convince with a logical argument, then I can't convince you. I wish you had just said up front that you support the bill no matter what, it would have saved us both some time.

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I have said multiple times that I am not arguing in support of the bill, I am arguing about a very narrow statement about it somehow violating people's religious rights. And if you truly believe that religious people are not seeking to limit access to birth control you live in a very small, deluded world, and I bet it's a very happy place. As I said before, my wife was denied HER OWN b/c pills THAT SHE PAID FOR HERSELF, simply because she was admitted to a CATHOLIC hospital. Not only are they trying to deny the public access to free birth control, they are ACTIVELY denying access to ALL birth control to women RIGHT NOW.

ginwilly said:

so it's your stance that everyone is lying about paying for coverage they don't want or need?

Uncle Buck everyone.

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my point is that this is all manufactured bullshit, as are most republican "issues".

the funniest part is that it's driving way more women to the polls than bible thumping morons like you.

it's backfiring, but you're too stupid to know it.

Ace Yonder said:

I have said multiple times that I am not arguing in support of the bill, I am arguing about a very narrow statement about it somehow violating people's religious rights. And if you truly believe that religious people are not seeking to limit access to birth control you live in a very small, deluded world, and I bet it's a very happy place. As I said before, my wife was denied HER OWN b/c pills THAT SHE PAID FOR HERSELF, simply because she was admitted to a CATHOLIC hospital. Not only are they trying to deny the public access to free birth control, they are ACTIVELY denying access to ALL birth control to women RIGHT NOW.

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Yeah, it really sucks when people force their beliefs on other people doesn't it.

I think the catholic church (or any church) operating a hospital is a business not a church unless it's charity and should be treated as such. You seem to keep trying to have an argument with something other than I'm stating.

I'm not talking about hospitals and neither were you before. We are talking about individual freedom and constitutional rights and individual policies that force people to pay for coverage they do not want or need. Or at least we were.

You'll have to convince me that sister mary catherine, or your crazy uncle Jim not wanting to pay for birth control is denying anyone elses right or access to birth control.

I'm on your team concerning the church cartels.

UncleBuck said:

my point is that this is all manufactured bullshit, as are most republican "issues".

the funniest part is that it's driving way more women to the polls than bible thumping morons like you.

it's backfiring, but you're too stupid to know it.

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Unlike morally deficient people, I want to see the right thing done, winning in politics at the expense of the truth while damaging our country is not my idea of victory. I wish the dems, who had a golden opportunity to fix health care, had done the right thing. If they had, you wouldn't look so stupid defending the indefensible. "it lowers costs" "everyone will be covered" "it's deficit neutral". This bill is a boon to the healthcare trinity of hospital corps, big pharma and insurance. The individuals healthcare? not so much.

ginwilly said:

Yeah, it really sucks when people force their beliefs on other people doesn't it.

I think the catholic church (or any church) operating a hospital is a business not a church unless it's charity and should be treated as such. You seem to keep trying to have an argument with something other than I'm stating.

I'm not talking about hospitals and neither were you before. We are talking about individual freedom and constitutional rights and individual policies that force people to pay for coverage they do not want or need. Or at least we were.

You'll have to convince me that sister mary catherine, or your crazy uncle Jim not wanting to pay for birth control is denying anyone elses right or access to birth control.

I'm on your team concerning the church cartels.

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I think that there is a difference for not wanting to pay for birth control and excluding birth control from a all-encompassing healthcare bill. Jehovah's witnesses don't believe in blood transfusions, should their costs go down because they won't use those? Or should the bill not cover them? No, because it is healthcare for EVERYONE, and the fact that it gives you more options does not mean that you are specifically paying for those specific options.

The sickening part is the major foundation of the bill is based on a republican idea so bad that they couldn't even get the majority of republicans to support it and was unanimously declared stupid by the democrats.

Now that the democrats re-wrapped it and put a new shiny bow on it, you support it. This is what partisan politics gets us.