Dear America: You should be mad as hell about this!

Originally Posted by Canna Sylvan

If we things aren't working right, government will fix it. Sure prohibition, the war on drugs and the housing market didn't work out, but those weren't really government's fault anyway. Next time government will give me a mansion, a 2012 Porsche 911, and whatever else I want. Fuck Allah, government will give me 73 virgins!

Originally Posted by Dr Kynes

I love you bro, and youre usually right on point, but somebody gave you some really bad data. Ethyl alcohol is non corrosive in engines, yet it's not used in extremely expensive racing engines, RC model engines or tractor pulls. this is because despite their similar octane rating (which only defines the speed of the fuel air mixture's burning, for determining the ignition timing offset) methyl acohol delivers much greater expansion, and more force against the resistance of the engine (more work despite similar burning temps)

If ethanol delivered more energy per gallon in an engine, E85 would not have sucked so bad. methanol (methyl alcohol/gasoline mix) delivers MUCH more power than gasoline especially when under the greater pressures of a nitrous injected or supercharged engine.

My grandpappy ran his truck on ethyl alcohol when he was moonshining, and he had to tear that engine down and rebuild it with a massive over-bore,much higher volumetric efficiency (nearly 90% as close as i can figure which is balls in a naturally aspirated engine) and severely retarded ignition just to make that damned thing run fast enough to stay ahead of the law. Had he run methyl alcohol in that engine his heads would have flown trough the hood as soon as he touched the accelerator.

TLDR in the same engine under the same conditions at the same purity, methyl alcohol is far more powerful than ethyl alcohol or gasoline. Raise the pressure with a supercharger, or nitrous oxide and the power difference becomes dangerous (aluminium blocks and heads cant take it) this is why Methyl alcohol is used in nascar not ethyl, gasoline or a mix despite the corrosive precipitates methyl leaves in the cylinders and exhaust system. Methyl alcohol is also the standard in indy racing, tractor pulls, sprint car, and every kind of drag except Nitro. if it didnt work better you bet your bottom dollar they would use something else.

Simple test, try to put ethyl alcohol in your mate's model aircraft engine. if he lets you do it (he wont) it wont have enough power to fly.

Liet, I think we're talking about different things. I don't know anything about corrosion liabilities, but i imagine that's a matter of choosing the right materials for gaskets and intake/fuel delivery components.
I stand by my statements in re energy density. You're talking about something different: the power an engine can produce. Methanol's hurt in energy density (the high proportion of bound water) is, interestingly enough, the same property that makes it such a good performance fuel: the low molecular weight gives great expansion, and the high "ash" component makes for cool combustion, sparing valves etc. So i have no doubt that racers use it for a reason.

I will also wager another thing. Water has the best expansion ratio of them all (about 1500 from liquid to steam), and it cools the combustion process, which is why water injection allows running piston (and turbine!) engines beyond their usual safe compression/specific power envelope. I would bet that if ethanol were diluted to methylene equivalency (about 72% ethanol in water by weight, or 144 proof), it would burn jusyt as well in methanol-tuned engines ... assuming the gaskets etc. are up to it. Your grandpappy would very probably have had GREAT git-go but lousy range running ~150 proof squeeze, with less engine trouble.

A big problem with E85 was that most engines are gasketed for hydrocarbon fuels, which are generally gentle on typical gasket/connector synthetics. But if you had a vehicle with an engine that was built to run hydrocarbon, pure ethanol and pure methanol with similar efficiencies, a gallon of hydrocarbon would take you 1 1/2 times as far as a gallon of ethanol and 2 1/2 times as far as methanol under the same duty cycle. For road use, that matters an awful lot ... not so much for non-endurance races.

Some Sunday-night musings. cn

Originally Posted by Padawanbater2

I'm not sure you're understanding the point being made. It's not about giving everyone above average paying jobs, it's about fair distribution of economic prosperity across the board. Banks who fail shouldn't be rewarded, CEO's whose companies go bankrupt shouldn't walk away with multi-million dollar packages, this is absurd, and if you disagree with me, please, provide reasons why. 298% increase directly to CEO's and super wealthy, while the bottom 90% of the labor force, the people making the products that bring in the revenue, enjoy a 4% increase growth. This, again, is absolutely absurd. Meanwhile inflation continues to increase and minimum wage hasn't been able to support a single person comfortably in a decade.

So please, turn your brain on and start thinking about this stuff in a different way. Stop trying to make everything partisan, stop trying to blame someone else or another group or government hand outs, this is all a completely separate issue.

Private companies should be able to provide whatever they want to their employees or CEOs in terms of contracting wages. The real problem is very well concealed and is not discussed much and you were partially right about economic mobility. The reasons we are in the mess we are is not because of capitalism, but crony-capitalism. Cronyism is destroying us and the wealth envy and class warfare is spurred on by politicians that are in on the game. Goldman-Sachs is one of the prime culprits and they are rewarded with even greater political influence.

Some of the things that have changed between pre-1981 and now include an ever increasing tax burden that makes it virtually impossible to have a traditional family, one parent at work, one at home. The second spouse is usually just working to pay the taxes. Government creep can be seen everywhere and it is a prime reason, in addition to technology that we take jobs overseas. Can you imagine how our economy would boon if we eliminated corporate tax and instituted something like the FairTax? Corporations do not pay taxes anyway, it's more misdirection by the government. Look over here, corporations are paying less taxes. ONLY INDIVIDUALS CAN HAVE WEALTH. Taxes can only affect individuals, corporations merely pass on their extra expenses to employees, customers and shareholders in higher consumer prices, lower wages/fewer jobs, and less dividends and ROI. Wealthy people are laughing at all of us arguing at the levels we should be taxing income. Income is for the suckers they would tell you. The FairTax would get into the pocketbooks of everyone that currently pays no income taxes, including the underground economies that operate tax free. It would also collect revenue from trust-fund babies and other wealthy individuals that don't work for a wage. But the biggest change would be the explosive economy as investors and entrepreneurs look at the US as the new tax haven for business.

Remember "taxflation"? cn

Originally Posted by cannabineer

Liet, I think we're talking about different things. I don't know anything about corrosion liabilities, but i imagine that's a matter of choosing the right materials for gaskets and intake/fuel delivery components.
I stand by my statements in re energy density. You're talking about something different: the power an engine can produce. Methanol's hurt in energy density (the high proportion of bound water) is, interestingly enough, the same property that makes it such a good performance fuel: the low molecular weight gives great expansion, and the high "ash" component makes for cool combustion, sparing valves etc. So i have no doubt that racers use it for a reason.

I will also wager another thing. Water has the best expansion ratio of them all (about 1500 from liquid to steam), and it cools the combustion process, which is why water injection allows running piston (and turbine!) engines beyond their usual safe compression/specific power envelope. I would bet that if ethanol were diluted to methylene equivalency (about 72% ethanol in water by weight, or 144 proof), it would burn jusyt as well in methanol-tuned engines ... assuming the gaskets etc. are up to it. Your grandpappy would very probably have had GREAT git-go but lousy range running ~150 proof squeeze, with less engine trouble.

A big problem with E85 was that most engines are gasketed for hydrocarbon fuels, which are generally gentle on typical gasket/connector synthetics. But if you had a vehicle with an engine that was built to run hydrocarbon, pure ethanol and pure methanol with similar efficiencies, a gallon of hydrocarbon would take you 1 1/2 times as far as a gallon of ethanol and 2 1/2 times as far as methanol under the same duty cycle. For road use, that matters an awful lot ... not so much for non-endurance races.

Some Sunday-night musings. cn

I'm no chemist but your comments vis-a -vis the expansion and cooler burning are correct, methyl alcohol (and ethyl too) carry a large burden of water in most solutions, however, racing fuel and model engine fuel (both pure methyl alcohol distilled to as high as 99.9% purity in WorldWide's Performance Blue) deliver maximum performance for off-road and model aircraft racing, but they require frequent maintenance, special cylinder walls, valves, combustion chambers, exhaust manifolds and piston heads to prevent corrosion. interior chroming, stainless steel, zinc plating, and ceramic/metallic composites have been used with varying degrees of success. when its burnt under pressure methyl alcohol produces strong acid salts that wreck engines fast. racer still use it because it performs. it's popular with off road racers because a couple jugs keeps yourt shit moving longer than gasoline would. i know some cats with enduro bikes which they ride on the street as well (im strictly cruisers) when they get off the dirt tracks they are required to drain their gas tanks and refill with gasoline to drive on the roads, (legislation declares methyl alcohol a deadly toxic and explosive product). they report better performance with methyl than gas. They hate the damage methyl does to their engine's combustion and exhaust systems, but they love the power and endurance of the fuel in their racing.

They pay MORE for their methyl alcohol racing fuel than gasoline (upwards of $6.75 a gallon) which is illegal for use on the street (so they must drain tanks or trailer to races) and deposits corrosive precipitates in the combustion chamber and exhaust system. These dudes aint stupid. Higher cost per gallon, more maintenance time, and more replacement parts, and a fuel that congress says ins deadly poison, and dangerously explosive, yet they use it in preference to the standard gasoline products, and only switch to gasoline when facing 25-life if they use methyl on the street.

using methyl alcohol on the street is:
Felony Use of an Unapproved motor fuel: why yes. a felony. punishable with 1-5 years in slam for violating federal highway statutes, and thats a three strikes violation, but just a normal one.
Possessing an explosive device: when used as a motor fuel methyl alcohol magically transforms a dirt bike or sand rail from a racing machine to a BOMB when the wheels touch the street. and thats a violent felony three strikes violation.
Bootlegging: Illegal felony intestate transportation of illegal un-taxed liquor and thats your second violent felony, triggering three strikes mandatory 25-life imprisonment

if you make your own Methyl Alcohol:
the still is a bomb violent felony
the product is toxic poison violent felony
the product is un-taxed liquor regular felony
the product is illegal explosives violent felony
and im pretty sure they could shoe-horn in some terrorism charges as well, for your gitmo vacation.

Those in charge REALLY dont want Methyl Alcohol as a motor fuel. check your sources bro, my sources say the shit is corrosive, expensive and fraught with legal hazards, but its worth the extra bullshit for the performance gain over legal and unrestricted ethyl alcohol, or gasoline.

oddly, the one place methyl alcohol is still available is as a fuel stabilizer, where it is 98% pure methyl alcohol, and costs $10 a quart, but is legal to put in your gas tank even on the roads. i cant even begin to figure out how that works in the tiny minds on capital hill.

edit: e85 was not a corrosion or gasket problem like "Diesel #2" (the engine wrecker), E85 is a shit performance and low fuel mileage problem. methyl is a metal corrosion problem. when you burn it in an engine methyl alcohol makes metal eating salts that dissolve aluminium at a frightening rate, and pit and scar steel fast too. "Diesel #2" was aa powerful solvent that dissolved the gaskets and seals on truck's fuel systems, and ate away the sealing material on head gaskets and injector nozzels. that shit put hundreds of owner-operator truckers out of business, and drove up rates for independent farmers. (ruined a few tractors too, but most small farmers ran on homemade biodiesel already)

regarding water injectors, as far as i know the only place you inject water in a running engine is in a jet engine's secondary combustion chamber (afterburner) and mostly only military and performance jets have those at all. even a few drops of water in a standard piston engine at operating temperature can raise pressures so high that cylinder heads pop and tie-rods break. when you want to increase pressures in a piston engine, you pipe in nitrous oxide (inert, non-expanding, non-flamable laughing gas) use a propane trickler (to richen the mxiture with the choke wide open) or pump in large volumes of air with a supercharger

NOBODY injects water in their piston engine except in science labs or research facilities.

PS. I suspect you are a spy from House Corrino, or possibly in the employ of Shaddam himself! Can i expect a team of Sardaukar Terror Troops at the entrance to my sietch tonight?

Kynes, you seem to know your shit about bug spray/fuel and farming..good stuff

A minor niggle: nitrous is not inert! It is a powerful oxidizer. Things burn in nitrous with the same enthusiasm as in pure oxygen. It's a way to both dendify the cylinder charge and add to the energy of the combustion pulse. cn

Originally Posted by cannabineer

A minor niggle: nitrous is not inert! It is a powerful oxidizer. Things burn in nitrous with the same enthusiasm as in pure oxygen. It's a way to both dendify the cylinder charge and add to the energy of the combustion pulse. cn

I love it when you get your science on but i th9ink we're talking different molecules here, i never seen anything that makes anything burn with the enthusiasm (love that one, very descriptive) of a pure o2 environment, or when a dipshit leaves his o2 tank gassing off in the welding tank magazine (store room) overnight, and in the morning somebody has to sneak a cigarette in the shop bay... long story short, 1 prosthetic limb, several skin grafts and numerous minor burn injuries and penciled in eyebrows all around.

im not sure which oxides of nitrogen you been usin brougham, but the "nitrous oxide" "laughing gas" and "Nitrous Bottle" stuff i used now and again for recreational motor sports (and other more indoor uses) arent particularly flammable. back in the 80's a bottle of laughing gas and a sack of weed would get you in the door at any party in LA. from personal experience, smoking weed in a room full of dumbbasses huffing laughing gas doesnt cause anything other than hypoxia and the munchies. the short lived "lets get high on o2" craze resulted in several flash-fires and numerous cylinder burst incidents among the party set in LA in the 90's, but i dont recall any incidents from nitrous oxide which is still used as a propellant in aerosol foods today (whippits)

Note: spray can whipped cream will not make your car go faster. keep it on the pies kids.

when i say inert, i dont mean chemically stable, and non-reactive, i mean in a combustion chamber the nitrous oxide doesnt alter the speed of expansion or spark propagation of the fuel air mixture, so the primary factors (ignition timing, fuel/air mix and valve lap) dont have to be altered to accommodate nitrous. this makes nitrous oxide systems easier to use and slightly less expensive to maintain than other power boost systems. For mechanics inert means it doesnt fuck with your numbers and tuning, we dont give a rats ass about the rest of the universe. when you pipe in nitrous, all that happens in your combustion chamber (from a mechanic/racing perspective) is increased pressures, and more power from the same engine. The covalent bonds of nitrous oxide are too strong to break under the modest pressures and temps of a piston engine. i tell you this from experience, piping in raw oxygen, or any other oxidizer would blow your engine to pieces. nitrous is simple, friendly and pretty harmless in a garage, doesnt burn in open air, or under reasonable pressures and temps, and drops an extra 2-5 atmospheres into your combustion chamber without altering your fuel load, temps or timing. in mechanic talk, thats inert.

When using a supercharger, the fuel/air mix must be enriched (more fuel) to use the increased air volume. Superchargers (including turbo chargers, ram air, and ghetto blower motors) increase volumetric efficiency, but continue to increase heat, and fuel consumption with the increase in pressure until the parts fail. A propane gas trickler (hillbilly nitrous) simply richens the mix and causes incomplete combustion for a moderate gain in performance. other methods (gasoline drippers, engine priming liquids, hair spray, charcoal lighter fluid, naptha, hydrogen peroxide, acetylene, brown's gas, pure hydrogen, etc etc etc i seen em all) only serve to put your car in a wrecking yard not the winner's circle.


Note: nitrous oxide is dangerous shit when mixed with other readily available chemicals. when mixed with hydrogen peroxide it makes rocket fuel and explosions. seriously, dont fuck with this shit. piping anything into the intake manifold of your mom's ford taurus will NOT make you win the local street races, and will not make hot chicks dig you.