Do You Support The "Occupy"Protests?

**laserbrn** · 01-17-2012, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by abandonconflict

I see no mention of means of production.

When the means of production is privatized in the hands of a few, those with no wealth aside from their children have only labor to sell. In our country, the perception of what is a free market needs to be updated. Patents are awarded to companies like Monsanto which give immense power over us all. THIS IS NOT A FREE MARKET! The game is rigged.

All of us here should have more respect for the means of production seeing as how we give ourselves the right to plant cannabis seeds. We are from a people who stole their freedom from a king who would have made a perfect Neoconservative GOP candidate. He was a king who believed that peace could be achieved by waging war, that more police, laws and prisons would lead to greater liberty and that natural resources were HIS property to use chiefly for his own benefit.

We have allowed Neoconservative mafiosos to institute a fiat currency system. They have used it to consolidate even more power. We have allowed them to blur secular lines. We gave America back to King George.

As an example of how this occurred, think of Diesel. He created an internal combustion engine that could run on peanut oil. This model could never generate the profit that an engine running on fossil fuels could and therefore a redesign was necessary. Now we are addicted to a finite resource which is owned by a few rich men instead of being free to fill our own tanks.

While I believe that we have given too much power to the state and that indeed this is akin to giving the power back to King George, what I don't understand is how this fits into the framework of this discussion. I don't see how those that would love to expand the role of gov't are any better than the "neoconservatives" that you claim are attempting to grab power over all of us.

What is the point of this argument? What are you suggesting? This it the problem that I have with the entire OWS movement, it's not a movement, it's just noise. Yes, the system is corrupted and the politicians are bought off aristocrats, but what does crying about it accomplish? What are some concrete goals that we the people need to achieve to change the direction the ship is sailing? How do we the masses go about a reformation period and what would those reformations be?

Most of the time I hear selfish answers like..."We want free education" and "We want relieve from all of our debts", which obviously doesn't at all move the cause forward. Campaign Fincance Reform does. Lobby Reform does. Why aren't we getting together to demand a constitutional ammendment a) limiting terms for congresspeople and b) enacting serious reforms in our election and lobby systems? When are we going to have candidates that are running their campaigns on public funds (with limits) with audits and criminal punishment for abuses?

Why can't we get a candidate that is from the people and for the people? Why do I need to raise MILLIONS of dollars just to have my ideas heard and to give the people an opportunity to elect me? What do the people gain from the current system where each candidate is either a prop for the right or left (the corporations or the unions)?

I'll support the next movement, on OWS, I'll pass.

**abandonconflict** · 01-17-2012, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by laserbrn

While I believe that we have given too much power to the state and that indeed this is akin to giving the power back to King George, what I don't understand is how this fits into the framework of this discussion. I don't see how those that would love to expand the role of gov't are any better than the "neoconservatives" that you claim are attempting to grab power over all of us.

What is the point of this argument? What are you suggesting? This it the problem that I have with the entire OWS movement, it's not a movement, it's just noise. Yes, the system is corrupted and the politicians are bought off aristocrats, but what does crying about it accomplish? What are some concrete goals that we the people need to achieve to change the direction the ship is sailing? How do we the masses go about a reformation period and what would those reformations be?

Most of the time I hear selfish answers like..."We want free education" and "We want relieve from all of our debts", which obviously doesn't at all move the cause forward. Campaign Fincance Reform does. Lobby Reform does. Why aren't we getting together to demand a constitutional ammendment a) limiting terms for congresspeople and b) enacting serious reforms in our election and lobby systems? When are we going to have candidates that are running their campaigns on public funds (with limits) with audits and criminal punishment for abuses?

Why can't we get a candidate that is from the people and for the people? Why do I need to raise MILLIONS of dollars just to have my ideas heard and to give the people an opportunity to elect me? What do the people gain from the current system where each candidate is either a prop for the right or left (the corporations or the unions)?

I'll support the next movement, on OWS, I'll pass.

I agree with you. My point is that the entire movement seems to be of dubious initial momentum because if it were true class struggle, there would be much more focus on means of production. I therefore do not support the movement.

**purklize** · 01-17-2012, 10:46 PM

I support the popular protest against the economic and political situation but... the masses need leadership. Marxist leadership. Desperately.

www.wsws.org

**laserbrn** · 01-17-2012, 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by purklize

I support the popular protest against the economic and political situation but... the masses need leadership. Marxist leadership. Desperately.

www.wsws.org

Lol......no seriously, lol.

**purklize** · 01-17-2012, 11:05 PM

Every liberal platform has its way with the world, and all have led to failure. Look at where we are now... even the formerly highly egalitarian states in Scandinavia are throwing their social programs to the wind... capital has but one master, and while it remains in power, we have none...

**abandonconflict** · 01-18-2012, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by purklize

Every liberal platform has its way with the world, and all have led to failure. Look at where we are now... even the formerly highly egalitarian states in Scandinavia are throwing their social programs to the wind... capital has but one master, and while it remains in power, we have none...

Careful, socialism isn't popular. Too many Americans are still voting who were around during the cold war. They had no internet, only mainstream media.

**Pat the stoner** · 01-18-2012, 11:38 AM

Socialism and fascism are not American Ideals . The economy is not a magical creature . Inflation is caused by greed . We should be organized against oppression . However why would I want a form of government that takes my rights away or excercises them on my behalf cause they know better what I need than I do . This is how we got into this situation in the first place . When public servants start serving the public - and the public stops serving Government greed then we will have a better place for everyone not just a select few . Power corrupts . The more power the more it becomes corrupt when it belongs only to a few . Communism - fascism - socialism have failed all over the world . For a long time people have fled from these types of oppressive nations and come here for a better life . Who wants to stand in line for hours for a loaf of bread ? When our politicians encouraged the industries to move away overseas we lost valuble resources that helped our economy , an industrial nation is hard to bring down . Much of our industry is gone now and that is a big part of why the economy is bad - not many good paying jobs . Free enterprise capitalism is a good system . Extreme capitalism is not . We need to get the crooked ass political leadership out and get America back on track .

**abandonconflict** · 01-18-2012, 12:13 PM

Adding capitalism to culture is like adding a maze to a rat experiment. I'm sick of life being a rat race. They (corporate politicians and friends) own everything AND govern us. That is the essence of inequality. What is free about a market that relies on cannabis prohibition and patents and cancer and an oil infrastructure and war? I know shit doesn't change overnight but I can still bitch about it. Why should I continue to believe in the free market promises? Faith is fallacious.

**axionjaxson** · 01-18-2012, 12:18 PM

i support just about anything that lets the controllers know that we the people are still here and wont be fuct over , or something like that...

**Pat the stoner** · 01-18-2012, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by abandonconflict

Adding capitalism to culture is like adding a maze to a rat experiment. I'm sick of life being a rat race. They (corporate politicians and friends) own everything AND govern us. That is the essence of inequality. What is free about a market that relies on cannabis prohibition and patents and cancer and an oil infrastructure and war? I know shit doesn't change overnight but I can still bitch about it. Why should I continue to believe in the free market promises? Faith is fallacious.

I understand the frustration I feel it myself . But first the system is not in good working order - it's been corrupted by thieves and liars for quite some time . Any good thing can be ruined , once ruined we can all say its no good now . If it were functioning they way it should we would not be at odds with it . But under a completely socialist government when the cops came to my house last week they could have just shot us all , stole everything and maybe raped my wife with little to no consequences . It would have been much worse . Things in this country have gotten so far away from the way they were designed to be it is terrible . What is terrible about it is what they have done to it . It's been perverted and twisted and taken from us all that remains is an illusion of media propaganda . I don't have the exact answer but I feel like we are all being screwed by greedy leadership and am tired of it .

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