Howard Dean is scary!!!!!
- Thread starter stewie
- Start date
UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
BudMcLovin
Active Member
The founding fathers did not want the government getting involved in social justice programs. They wanted the government to stay out of a person’s life. The more I think about it the post office isn’t a social justice program. You have to buy a stamp to send a letter. It’s not a free system.
Oh and why don’t you try to make an argument against Beck without insulting the man? It just shows you’re jealousy and hatred for the man but does nothing to help your argument.
UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
who else will take your letter from ny to la for 40 or so cents?
no one.
making an argument against beck is too easy, it is a waste of keystrokes and bandwidth. his lies and race baiting are well documented. easier to just call him the pink-faced dimwit he is.
GreenGurl
Well-Known Member
In my personal opinion, the only people who continue to support capitalism today are:
A) people who were born into wealthy families (and by that I mean WEALTHY = over $15 million in holdings) who have substantial power and leisure to lose...
B) people who can't understand how they are in reality NOT WEALTHY, and choose to delude themselves by thinking that their lifestyles are somehow "rich" or "well off" or whatever else, when they continue to work more than they should to purchase items they don't need, all the while trying to distract themselves from how empty their lives truly are in this shallow consumer culture...
C) people who are simply afraid of change...
I don't mean to demean or insult anyone with my comment, this opinion is just what I've gathered over my decades of experience meeting and discussing this exact subject with peops. Mostly I find that the hot heads are the least willing to think through the more complicated philosophical hypotheticals, and subsequently can't ever get very far into a new idea to learn anything about how it might in fact be better than their current world view. I don't fault them for it, it is just a bummer, since if they could learn new things, the world would be a totally different and less stressful place for everyone!!!
I know that capitalism, in fact, has caused me to take on over $160K in loans to go to college and purchase my home. I will not expect to be FREE until I reach my 45th birthday. To me, that is the definition of indentured slavery and is totally FUCKED. Plus, I would much rather live on a farm and work something closer to 28 hours a week. That would be really awesome. (No technology, no hospitals, no distractions, no worries!)
A) people who were born into wealthy families (and by that I mean WEALTHY = over $15 million in holdings) who have substantial power and leisure to lose...
B) people who can't understand how they are in reality NOT WEALTHY, and choose to delude themselves by thinking that their lifestyles are somehow "rich" or "well off" or whatever else, when they continue to work more than they should to purchase items they don't need, all the while trying to distract themselves from how empty their lives truly are in this shallow consumer culture...
C) people who are simply afraid of change...
I don't mean to demean or insult anyone with my comment, this opinion is just what I've gathered over my decades of experience meeting and discussing this exact subject with peops. Mostly I find that the hot heads are the least willing to think through the more complicated philosophical hypotheticals, and subsequently can't ever get very far into a new idea to learn anything about how it might in fact be better than their current world view. I don't fault them for it, it is just a bummer, since if they could learn new things, the world would be a totally different and less stressful place for everyone!!!
I know that capitalism, in fact, has caused me to take on over $160K in loans to go to college and purchase my home. I will not expect to be FREE until I reach my 45th birthday. To me, that is the definition of indentured slavery and is totally FUCKED. Plus, I would much rather live on a farm and work something closer to 28 hours a week. That would be really awesome. (No technology, no hospitals, no distractions, no worries!)
GreenGurl
Well-Known Member
I also believe that good government is the only thing that protects us from the companies who plain and simply just want to sell us shit. There are good companies, of course, but there are ones that care only about profit. That left unchecked is horribly dangerous to us all.
Social justice is about removing the power imbalance that some shady characters have been methodically "improving upon" for centuries. (How do we grow more tobacco for less? Slaves, bitches!) This is why for the most part, I am so grossed out by people in law and marketing.
Social justice is about removing the power imbalance that some shady characters have been methodically "improving upon" for centuries. (How do we grow more tobacco for less? Slaves, bitches!) This is why for the most part, I am so grossed out by people in law and marketing.
UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
i'm going to go ahead and make a sweeping generalization here, but bear with me...
back in the day of our founding fathers, the biggest threat to freedom was a tyrannical government.
nowadays, the biggest threat to our freedom seems to be what you discussed...more or less being an indentured servant or wage slave to corporations/capitalism.
but i think it is even worse than that (see military industrial complex). it seems like both are tag-teaming us...
i say fuck it and just live my life to be happy and practice my values the best i can.
thanks for chiming in!
GreenGurl
Well-Known Member
Based off of God? Your assumptions are showing...
hanimmal
Well-Known Member
I look at it a different way.
At the age of 45, you will be out of debt making far more on average than if you would not have gotten the education you did. And between 45 and when you retire you will gain far more than you would have if you would have not gone the route you have with your education.
Buying your home and being in debt for a while doesn't stop you from doing different thugs, it doesn't stop you from having fun spending your money anyway you wish to once you pay your bills. And I don't know any form of slavery where the slavemaster gave their slave a nice house and allowed them to do whatever they wished and the slave gets to keep everything they acquire.
But living a good simple life does have appeal, I would just miss city water, well water blows.
GreenGurl
Well-Known Member
Not to pick a fight, but you should read up on slavery. Often times slave owners WOULD outfit their peops in nice houses (simple victorian is nice enough for me!!!) and give them a very long leash so to speak; those lucky folks were treated a lot like middle management...
But anyway, I don't want to be forced to work for three decades in order to buy my freedom into a world where my success in fact, traps others. Why not just let us all take it as easy as we want with the caveat that people who don't work, don't eat.
hanimmal
Well-Known Member
Nah nothing to worry about there, we like the back and forth on this site it seems. Feel free to tear me apart. I think you are talking more about the exception than the rule, and I don't think they were allowed to keep those homes.
You are right about some slave owners doing that. And you have every right to think about the situation we are in this world as slavery, but that doesn't mean there are not a bunch of other ways to look at it too.
The way I look at it is I benefited off of many other peoples hard work for the first 20 years of my life. I not only was born in a hospital that I had in no way contributed to (my dad worked and had insurance (i am pretty sure he did anyway) but I didnt pay for anything right). I went to public school that other people supported with their taxes to give me a good education, then although I did not take good advantage of it the first time through I did go to college enough to be able to check the some college box on applications.
All of these things helped me to earn more income than I would have if none of those systems were in place. And I did decide to buy a house, and am going back to finish up my schooling now too, so I also decided it was worth the interest I pay for using other peoples money to get those things before I could pay outright for them. I didnt have to, but the extra $50k+ over what I was earning before a year is well worth it to me.
You have every right to look at it as you being enslaved, but seriously I look at the situation we have here as giving us access to every way we can to help people improve their situation as long as we understand that when you make a few extra bucks you need to kick back a little to the system that gave you the ladder to pull yourself up by.
We have too much food here in America to stand by and let people starve to death, its too easy to get the food to market places to where people would be.
Hell if nothing else I am sure enough people are willing to pay :
((39,680,000*133.12)/330,000,000 =) the $16 a year from our taxes towards not having to deal with starving people giving us sad eyes as we try to get our bags full of groceries from the store to our car. Oh wait, forgot about 1/2 americans not paying taxes, so lets say $32 a year of the taxes we pay go to not dealing with starving families outside grocery stores.
There is a lot of things we pay for, but it is because it is very cheap as a society to do so. And if nothing else we benefit from them indirectly by not having to worry about others problems as much. But that may be part of me being heartless, but I would seriously pay $32 a year to not see real hunger in childrens eyes.
When a free market is allowed to work those companies that sell "shit" go out of business. A truly free market is many fold more efficient than government will ever hope to be.
FYI Every Private company in existence is there for one single reason, to make a profit.
Your math is WAY WAY wrong here. First of all 330 mill people do not pay taxes, of the total US population only about 2/3 have income tax applied(a 5 year old does not pay http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_United_States). that means 220 million. Of those 220 million 44 million are too poor to pay( http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/1410.html ), so now your looking at 175 million people who pay all the income tax in the country. Now lets do the math shall we? 175 mill * $133= $23,275,000,000 per MONTH . take that amount by 12 =279,300,000,000 per year. Now divide by number of tax payers =
$1,560 a year.
If we truly had TOO MUCH FOOD in the USA you would not see 20% price inflation. Supply and demand han, sometimes I wonder what they are teaching you in that box.
hanimmal
Well-Known Member
You did that wrong noD. And If you look at mine again I counted only half of Americans (multiplied the final amount by two).
You multiplied the 133 by the people paying taxes, you need to multiply the amount people received on avg in food stamps by the amount of people that received them, not by the amount of tax payers. Then you take that amount (food stamps x people on them) and divide by the tax payers (I used 165 million here). That is where the 32 dollars comes from. But I did forget to multiply it by 12 months, so per year it's 32x 12 which is still far less in taxes.
You multiplied the 133 by the people paying taxes, you need to multiply the amount people received on avg in food stamps by the amount of people that received them, not by the amount of tax payers. Then you take that amount (food stamps x people on them) and divide by the tax payers (I used 165 million here). That is where the 32 dollars comes from. But I did forget to multiply it by 12 months, so per year it's 32x 12 which is still far less in taxes.
Actually just about any trucker could, and he could make a profit. Of course it won't be as fast and it probably will not have ran through a bunch of expensive machines that sniff out possible anthrax or Material with a high rate of burn or anything, and you might have to go to a central clearing house to pick it up, but honestly who sends letters anymore? As soon as the old dogs who won't learn new tricks die off everyone should be well acquainted with E-Mail. The internet is what killed the post office, you can blame the inventor Al Gore.
Yep , your right I fucked that all up, thanks for bringing that to my attention. So its 133*44,000,000=5852000000. take
5852000000 and multiply by months in a year (The part you forgot) and you get 70224000000 and if you divide that by the number of people paying taxes (175,000,0000) you get $401.28 per tax payer. Which is a much better number that I think we can both agree on. Not too high ( even I was astounded by the original number I came up with) and not too low.
It still illustrates that it isn't a drop in the bucket some people report it to be. If someone came and put a gun to your head and demanded $400 on the spot and you gave it to them do you think you would feel bad? Even if they told you that if you didn't pay you were going to prison and that 60% of it would be spent running the program and the rest would go to "Those poor starving children"? Think you would still feel pretty good about the whole thing?
If you were working for $10 an hour that's almost like not getting 2 weeks of pay ( After taxes and such)
UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
could is not the same as will
nice try though. no extra credit but a smile face is awarded
are you really one of these people who thinks al gore invented the internet? that better be hardly detectable sarcasm, otherwise i have a new home for you...
hanimmal
Well-Known Member
yeah sometimes doing math on the Internet sucks, like not multiplying the months by twelve, made 36 bucks sound really good for my side of it, but I fucked that up lol. Not too bad like we both said but still inaccuracies blow. I just wish more people would quantify the things they think are important to really see what they are upset/happy about.
I agree that 400 is a lot to most people to give away. But nows when we look at taxes we pay. If the top 10% pay 80% of the taxes (may be wrong, I'll check in a bit for actual #s) that means the bottom 90% are left with 20%.
So we now need to figure out what 80% of the taxed population is (140,000,000) and figure out what 20% of the cost of food stamps are (14,044,800,000). Now dividing the cost by the eighty percent of tax payers means:$100.32 per person per year making less than what 200k a year, which is still a sliding scale with a higher number to those in the higher brackets, and lower to lower, but that would be the average.
Still a great amount to some people, but in terms of how much taxes we pay, cutting them by about $100 for most of us at the cost of food stamps doesn't seem like it's worth it. And let's not lose sight that this is not a charity to me, I'm pretty cold hearted, so I look at it as a not having to look at starving kids payoff.
killadelph420
Member
pyaaahhhhhhhh!!!