You don't understand what rationing is then.............

You get what you pay for in the private system.

You pay but don't get the value in a public system.... big difference.

Fear? nonsense. You use the word fear because fear is the response to not understanding. You project outwards your perception, not mine.

Having the govt. power grab nearly 20% of the nations yearly output and put that hard earned effort into something as wasteful as a govt. program is the height of irresponsibility.

And............. it's unconstitutional.

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You haven't countered nothing, because the points you made are not valid, you are basing your counter on information you don't understand, regardless the accuracy of the information, because it does not state what you are saying.. (Brazko)

I agree with you in the fact that I don't beleive that the Obama health care plan is the answer. A good thing that the American system has going is that people don't abuse it, or abuse it as much as ours (Canadian), because they have to pay for it. One of the reasons Canadians abuse health care in Canada is that many new Canadians came from countries with SHITTY health care and it is like letting a kid loose in a candy store. That uses up all of the resources for others, then that starts a back log. Also, one thing that should be mentioned is that the Canadian federal government only supplies some of the funding for health care while the real planning and the rest of the funding lies on the provincial governments. Around 1995, Ontario (where I live) elected a fucking nut job far right winged Premeir by the name of Mike Harris (1995 - 2002). He single-handedly destroyed health care and education by cutting funding by so much that the system was running on fumes for years, and we couldn't handle the influx of new Canadians. The reason he cut so much is so he could give massive cuts to busineses and give government money to his friends without running a deficit. I'm not against tax cuts to busineses, but the amount of handouts he gave to his people is sickening.
I remember 15 years ago, the Canadian health care system was very efficient. Also, the education system had a plethora of assisstance programs ranging from subsidized before and after school "day care" to new state of the art resources that were avalible when needed.
I know that penny for penny, you get more care in the American system for yourself, but the beauty of a sociallized system is that everyone is making sure everyone has some kind of coverage, and no one is left without health care. Neighbours looking out for one another, it's a beautiful thing.
Like I said before, we don't have the best system and there is alot of room for improvement. If the US plans to get a sociallized system on the go, then I think that they should take their time and develop one that also brings some types of income back in. That is why the two-teir system is the way of the future. I don't think that health care (which more or less is an essential service) should ever be ran for profit. It is a bad idea because there is alot of room for corruption and people have no choice to pay because they need care. Two-teir still brings money in to the system and offers total care for everyone. Those who have the money to pay can pay for quicker service, and the money from that can be used to buy more resources for the public system. All of which should be ran by the government to avoid corruption (there still will always be some form of corruption, but aleast there is less room for it if it's publically owned).
I am familiar with the conservitive view of less government means less money wasted on government. But unfortunately we live in a world of greed and we can't trust private companies to look out for our best intrests, especailly the poor.

I would like to hear your view CrackerJax on two-teir health care. Your points are always well researched and your facts are facts rather than bullshit nonsense.

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I call BULLSHIT !!!
Thats impossible, pure and simple; impossible.

So by your logic the insurance companies give out in benefits an equal amount to that they take in in coverage fees?

Id like to know how if their expenses equal their income how do they turn a profit?

Its simple, they profit by spending less than they get paid.

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http://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/235052-150-watt-hps-perpetual-closet.html

Put down the pipe.... that is not what my post says....

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You haven't countered nothing, because the points you made are not valid, you are basing your counter on information you don't understand, regardless the accuracy of the information, because it does not state what you are saying.. (Brazko)

... With Taxes Galore

Posted 11/19/2009 07:27 PM ET

Health Care: That thump in Washington was the 2,047 pages of the Senate overhaul bill landing on the chamber floor. The ripping noise that followed is the sound of money being yanked from Americans' wallets.
No question, most Democrats like to tax, and this legislation, unveiled Wednesday by Majority Leader Harry Reid, provides them a grand opportunity to indulge that urge.
According to Americans for Tax Reform, Reid's Senate bill uses the word "tax" no fewer than 183 times, "taxable" 164 times, "taxes" 17 times, "fee" 152 times and "penalty" 115 times.
The repeated references are clear indications of how bill supporters plan to fund an overhaul that, we are supposed to believe, will bring health care costs down.
Of course it won't. This bill will cost far more than the $848 billion over 10 years it's projected to. (Cato's Michael Cannon says as much as $2.5 trillion.) And a good part of those costs will be paid by adding to Americans' already painful tax burden.
Perhaps the ugliest tax is a levy on "Cadillac" health insurance plans. The Senate bill places a punitive 40% — yes, 40% — excise tax on health care plans valued at $8,850 and more for individuals, $23,000 and beyond for families. The margins for early retirees and high-risk professionals would be a bit more generous — $9,850 for single coverage and $26,000 for family plans.
The Senate bill will also wring fees from companies that manufacture and import branded drugs, as well as those that make and import certain medical devices. The amount of each company's fees will be based on the company's share of sales for the tax year.
Some Americans will eagerly support the idea of Congress sticking it to "greedy" firms. But this tax is particularly foolish, as it will curb innovations in the pharmaceutical and medical equipment industries. The companies that make the lifesaving and life-enhancing products that we should all be thankful for are not likely to respond to the fees by becoming more aggressive in their R&D.
Other taxes in the bill include:
• A 0.5% hike on the Medicare payroll tax — to 1.95% from 1.45% of wages — for those earning $200,000 or more a year. The margin will be set at $250,000 for joint filers.
• A 5% tax levied on elective cosmetic surgery, defined as surgery that doesn't "meaningfully promote" proper body function or "prevent or treat illness or disease." It will be paid by the patient.
• A tax on insurance companies that is estimated to raise $19 billion. Like the taxes on drug and medical device companies, it will be based on revenue share — premiums collected in this case — during the tax year.
• A limit on the amount of medical expenses that can be deducted from taxes.
It seems a little more than ironic to us that legislation that will supposedly improve health care could actually tax some of us to death. Let's hope enough senators see it the same way.

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You haven't countered nothing, because the points you made are not valid, you are basing your counter on information you don't understand, regardless the accuracy of the information, because it does not state what you are saying.. (Brazko)

What sheer foolishness...to impose this type of taxation when we are enduring 10.2% unemployment is stunning in it's destructiveness!
Beyond comprehension.

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If you wind up with a boring, miserable life because you listened to your mom, your dad, your teacher, your priest or some guy on TV telling you how to do your shit, then YOU DESERVE IT.
~ Frank Zappa ~

Liberty means responsibility, that is why most men dread it.
~George Bernard Shaw~

If you throw in farm unemployment, it's closer to 17%. Also, lots of folks have quit looking, and are not counted.

It's much more than 10.2% ... and climbing.

The govt. is causing the unemployment, not fixing it. Now they think we should trust them with health care?

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You haven't countered nothing, because the points you made are not valid, you are basing your counter on information you don't understand, regardless the accuracy of the information, because it does not state what you are saying.. (Brazko)

Our healthcare system in the US is beginning to rot from the inside out with little hope of recovery. More government in healthcare will only make it rot faster. I say let's just get it over with so the system can collapse and we can have a chance at starting over with something actually sustainable, like a real free market system, the same system that brought us wealth, technology and the best standards of living that the world has ever seen, where the poor are living better than the vast majority of the world's population. The government is a cancer that is killing it's host. The facts are in front of our eyes.

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My BCNL Producer grow journal

Pull the lawyers from the medical industry.

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You haven't countered nothing, because the points you made are not valid, you are basing your counter on information you don't understand, regardless the accuracy of the information, because it does not state what you are saying.. (Brazko)

I would love to pull all of the lawyers from politics.
I think we should enact a ban on attorneys holding any elected position.

We need these foxes kept out of the henhouse!

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If you wind up with a boring, miserable life because you listened to your mom, your dad, your teacher, your priest or some guy on TV telling you how to do your shit, then YOU DESERVE IT.
~ Frank Zappa ~

Liberty means responsibility, that is why most men dread it.
~George Bernard Shaw~