Arms race= big bucks for arms Mfgrs.
healthcare=caring for the sick and keeping the well, well.
Global warming=reality
wellfare=making sure no-one is hungry or without shelter or clothing, the necessities of life.
Warfare=killing of all that oppose your doctrine, and many innocents that just want a peaceful existence. Warfare always fails in reaching any positive agenda. War on poverty=failure; war on drugs= failure; War in VietNam=failure; war in Iraq= failure; war on freedom as waged by the Bush admin. The jury is not in yet, lets just hope it's a failure also.

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Life is good, the water is sweet. The ground keeps moving beneath my feet.

welfare and warfare are the same in terms of the costs to society. one groups funds the other group's demise.

if they have something in common it's the idea stated earlier that they are just issues used to divert attention away from the inedptitudes of the powers that be. they are not identical. what u mean is when warfare thrives, welfare dies? vice versa? follow the funding trail?

socialist healthcare is sweet. not pure socialism or anything, but the idea of sacrificing a little scratch or Tivo each month to have access to free healthcare would be great. it'd def be better than the outrageous system of health insurance, both for patient and practitioner.

Rights come with responsibility. For example, we have the right to bear arms. Along with that right comes the responsibility to be competent with a firearm, not brandishing it for no reason and only using it for legal hunting and self defense.

If health care is also a "right" as stated by Med and others many times on this site, doesn't it stand to reason that the "right" to healthcare also would have some personal responsibilitys attached to it? For example, if everyone is getting "free" health care from the labor of everyone else in the form of taxes, what will the "rules" be to ensure that everyone gets their money's worth? Would there be a limit on fast food consumption? How about the consumption of artificial sweetners like High Fructose Corn Syrup? What about alcohol and tobacco consumption? Will we need laws that make everyone conform to a regular exercise program? Non-monogamus sex? Too much exposure to the sun? Obesity? Who will monitor these things? What laws will be passed? How small will the box be in order to contain us all?

Yeppers, there's nothing like "free" government goodies to ratchet up government power.

Vi

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Liberals are people that will believe anything twice.

I'm no public healthcare planner but i do know a movie that just came out that fairly well documented countries with very stable "systems" of public healthcare. maybe we could ask them. maybe we could use their models. asking me how we're going to do that is unfair. i'm not qualified to do that. i am qualified to observe other successful systems so it can't be impossible for us.

"free?" haha. nothing is free. our democracy. i pay heavily for it. i'm a target in the war on drugs, i get hassled by police as much as anyone else, i'm black in a predominantly white area. that last one isn't true but u get my drift. freebies are always paid for somehow.

i know we'll have to "pay" for a socialist healthcare but why don't we want to? we could DIVERT funding from plenty of other places. i'll give up money outta my check. it's w/e, we already pay for other ppl to live. fuck it, let's pay for ourselves to live a little huh?

ur talking about not allowing ppl to get sick. that's ridiculous. let's train a perfect race? that idea is just as bad as the insurance companies now rejecting tons of warranted claims. either way, people aren't getting care and are being controlled to do somethign else. coercion isn't cool. health is cool.

either way, if it happens or not, it's a cool, progressive idea that obviously demands attention.

lynch ...

As I said, rights come with responsibility. They also come with tons of laws and regulations to make sure everyone is in compliance with their responsibility. For example, as I stated, we have the right to bear arms. There are over 20,000 laws on the books pertaining to firearms.

Now to "free" government, socialized health care. If you have the energy, do a Google search on Hillary Clinton's health care plan that she put together behind closed doors, then count how many negatives they put in that plan. Count the fines that would be imposed just for simply trying to contract with your doctor on the side if you wanted to go around the government ... like if you wanted to negotiate better prices or terms.

Remember, the opposite of liberty is socialism.

Vi

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Liberals are people that will believe anything twice.

Here's a little taste of Hillary's plan for you ...

Hillary's Health Care Plan


In 1994, Hillary Rodham Clinton set out to change the country's health-care system and convened a panel to develop a plan secretly. This was a endeavor paid for by taxpayers, but held behind closed doors-- in violation of federal law.
<U>Important aspects of the plan:

• </U>
• The plan aimed to cut the number of doctors (called "cost centers") by one quarter in order to cut demand by limiting supply.
• The plan aimed to cut costs by cutting the number of specialists in half.
• The plan prescribed the following fines:

* $5,000 for refusing to join the government-mandated health plan.
* $5,000 for failing to pay premiums on time.
* 15 years to doctors who received "anything of value" in exchange for helping patients short-circuit the bureaucracy.
* $10,000 a day for faulty physician paperwork.
* $50,000 for unauthorized patient treatment.
* $100,000 a day for drug companies that messed up federal filings.

• Would have mandated the Federal Government to build a database containing every American's medical records and require all individuals to carry a card containing a chip storing our complete medical history. This information would be available to government officials and researchers without your approval or knowledge.
• Would have set out to control the number and type of doctors permitted to practice in an geographical area.
• A Congressional Budget Office report (8-10-94) said the bill would cost more than $1 trillion in the first eight years.
• An association of U.S. Hospitals study estimated the plan would have added 59 new government offices staffed by 100,000 new bureaucrats.

<U>Hillary quotes about the plan:

• </U>
• When a woman complained that she didn't want to get shoved into a plan not of her choosing, the first lady lectured, "It's time to put the common good, the national interest, ahead of individuals."
• When told the plan could bankrupt small businesses, Mrs. Clinton sighed, "I can't be responsible for every undercapitalized small business in America."

<U>Other quotes about the plan:

• </U>
• "I have never read an official document that seemed so suffused with coercion and political naivete ... with its drastic prescriptions for controlling the conduct of state governments, employers, drug manufacturers, doctors, hospitals and you and me."

-- Martha Derthick of the University of Virginia

• Senator Moynihan said, "The American people got it clear enough…to cut the number of doctors in the country by a quarter…If you have fewer doctors you have fewer doctor bills. But you don't associate it with improving medicine."

Moynihan also noted, Hillary's bill aimed to cut costs by cutting "the number of specialists in half." Moynihan vehemently objected, arguing that specialists are a function of science--new discoveries create new specialties. Moynihan, defending New York's teaching hospitals which produce specialists, said, "We are not swamped with specialists; we abound in them. And that is surely the glory of this great moment of medical discovery."
<U>The illegality of the panel:

• </U>
• The secrecy of the task force was challenged in a lawsuit by the American Association of Physicians and Surgeons. The judge, imposing $286,000 in sanctions against the administration for the AAPS's legal fees, denounced what he called the "cover-up" of efforts to keep the health care planning secret. Noting that "reprehensible" misstatements had been made to him, he denounced decisions "made at the highest levels of government," which must be held accountable "when its officials run amok." He said the executive branch "was dishonest with this court" and declared that "some government officials never learn that the cover-up can be worse than the underlying conduct."

<U>Would Mrs. Clinton Still Pursue This Plan?:

• </U>
• "You may remember that we tried to do that [pass her health care bill] in 1993 and 1994. We weren't totally successful, but I did not give up."

-- Hillary Clinton speech, February 22, 2000.

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Liberals are people that will believe anything twice.

Hillary is a POS candidate. Vote Ron Paul!

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yea she can plan all she wants. i'm not hoping she'll win. let's take a look at a different plan instead when we actually might begin to put one into action. that day will produce a more feasible plan, all i'm saying. besides, w/e is put in place at first will have big problems and we'd have to adjust. i think it'd be worth it.

marijuanabusiness, Ron Paul stands a snowballs chance in hell of getting the nomination.

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The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it. United State Constitution, Art. I Sec. 9 Par. 2

"Dissent is the Highest form of Patriotism" -- Howard Zinn

Hey Vi, get used to it, Hillary is coming and bringing a not for profit health care plan, HA HA HA HO HO HO HE hE HE ~LOL~. Sorry, couldn't help Myself, ~LOL~ Maybe you should start cleaning your 1911 so it will be ready for suicide,~LOL~.

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Life is good, the water is sweet. The ground keeps moving beneath my feet.