I sure do get sick of this Left/Right crap (even though I'm as guilty of it as the next guy). Five years ago I left the Republican party, registered as an Independent, and stopped voting for either party. Now I get to condemn and ridicule the policies of whichever is in power. That's why most of my commentary sounds like I'm a shill for the Right.

The fact is, both parties are lying and covering up the staggering debt they have accumulated. Personally, I don't think we should be implementing any new programs of any kind until we slash the size of state and federal government in half. My view on the War on Terror (now known as the Ruckus with Underprivileged Demagogues) has definitely changed. Where the hell did all the war protesters go? We've doubled the number of service members in Afghanistan and it looks like Obama has committed us to an even longer campaign there than he accused Bush/McCain of leading us into in Iraq. What the FUCK? How much is THAT going to cost???

Anyways, back to the topic of debt. Two decent articles, one from '06 suggesting the real debt then was probably around $65 trillion (a Dem's figures), and another from '08 showing it most likely to be around $100 trillion (from what I can tell, a Libertarians numbers).

What do you think? Sounds plausible to me.

2006 Article
http://blog.buzzflash.com/alerts/105

2008 Article
http://www.lewrockwell.com/walker/walker34.html

__________________
Poppin My Own Cherry - Auto AK47 Journal
"I'm sure he lied. Of course he lied - he's a politician, from Chicago. Come on! Of course he lies!"- jrh72582

Both Democrat and Republican parties believe in using aggression or the threat of force to further their agendas...sad.

That is a good article thank you. I don't know where all the numbers came from but the $3.3 looks damn close to what Obama came out with, so on the surface it looks very probable.

I read the 2nd articles speech to find where those numbers came from here: http://www.dallasfed.org/news/speech...8/fs080528.cfm . It is definantely something that should be read by all. Even if they fear the Fed.

That number they were talking about was the rising costs of health care. This is why it is so important to fix this.

And just like the fact this was something that needed to be dealt with before Bush, this is also something that needed to be taken care of before Obama. These future prices are huge, and there is not a private alternative for it.

This is why we need to fix the health care system.

__________________
“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” -Einstein

I couldn't agree more. However, to essentially expand these programs to a single-payer system or the exact same, but for some reason scarier description of "nationalized" health care, is simply not the answer. There has never been and never will be an instance of the government running anything with less waste or lower costs than the private sector. But that isn't even the true problem, the reason these programs, SS, Medicare, Medicaid and Bush's Prescription drug program are doomed to failure is simply explained by the very fact they exist.

I suggest you go back into the history of these programs, at the dates of their inception and read what the opponents (especially the non-partisan ones) said about why they are "unsustainable" (sounds familiar). The present costs of these programs has dwarfed even their most ominous predictions. These socialized programs ALWAYS fail and ALWAYS lead to more government spending and more taxes in the colossal pyramid scheme they represent. In each case there were private options proposed that left the responsibility of each citizen's future in their own hands, and they were ignored.

Every one of these programs is an affront to capitalism and to the Republic. Every time we allow the government to swell itself like an overfed mosquito, in the quest to supposedly make things easier and better for ourselves, rather than just hunkering down and doing it for ourselves, this is the result. Face it ladies and gentleman, we should have stuck to what we had rather than mucking around in socialism (sorry it's not even debatable any more).

__________________
Poppin My Own Cherry - Auto AK47 Journal
"I'm sure he lied. Of course he lied - he's a politician, from Chicago. Come on! Of course he lies!"- jrh72582

Well Oba,as plan is gonna double where were at right now, then he states that he wants the deficit cut in half by next elections....wouldnt that bring us right back to where we are.....Were screwed plain and simple.

Rising cost of government provided healthcare, stop resorting to the Democrats talking points. If government was not providing healthcare that number would not exist, because it would not be part of the national debt, or incurred but not paid for obligations at a national level.

__________________
Libertas inaestimabilis res est - Liberty is a thing beyond all price. | Sic Semper Tyrannis

You should know by now that these are my talking points, I am not spoonfed anything. The costs of hospitals is getting more expensive, dentists are getting more expensive, pharm is getting more expensive. This is not just about the government debt, it is about the entire countries debt.

You act like everything is under the governments control right now and that is simply bullshit. And because the elderly cannot find affordable private coverage it ends up on the hands of the government to pay for it. Same with the poor. Those are not going to change unless we toss up our hands and say screw it let them all die. And at that point what the fuck is the point of even trying to be civilized?


The fear of the government that most people on this board seem to have is unfounded. Nothing is perfect, private or government, everything will fail if it stagnates, and pretty much everything always stagnates. The problem that we seem to have is allowing change.

That is one reason why some businesses do well is that they can constantly adjust with the markets. But most are unable to and go out of business when the person that ran it leaves.

The reason why I am very much in favor of this bill is that the system we have now is not something that can continue as it is currently. The constant defense of them is sickening, because they have not had to get screwed by the system yet, doesn't mean it won't eventually happen.

They should do these bills in ten year spurts. Using economic indicators to allow for adjustments to be made and complete dismantling of programs that should be. This is just a bandaid bill but it is very important start. The problem is that no matter what, the things that are needed to be done won't be until it is far too late (about 1985).

To think that I don't understand the troubles that government programs have is almost insulting, but I get it you don't know me. I am not going to assume that you don't know what you are talking about, but we can agree because we are looking at the same issues from different sides.

The people that want to pretend that everything s great are the ones that I have contempt for because they want to just muddy the waters without seeing that a solution is needed.

__________________
“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” -Einstein

I hear ya brother, there is no question changes need to be made and I think the general public does understand that. So cheers to that.

I actually like the current Co-op proposal. You essentially get the benefits of the public plan, but you have the ability to get out of it if it doesn't work. Aside from all my other arguments against socializing ANYTHING else in this country (which I know you have read and responded to) I guess that's my biggest problem with it. Once you open the door for nationalized health care, there is no way to reel it back in, regardless of how poorly it performs.

__________________
Poppin My Own Cherry - Auto AK47 Journal
"I'm sure he lied. Of course he lied - he's a politician, from Chicago. Come on! Of course he lies!"- jrh72582

I have repeatedly proposed alternate solutions but due to your lack of any ability to actually comprehend the written word or see what is right in front of your face I am not surprised that you did not retain that information. No, actually, more than likely you are hell bent on having Obama's imbecilic plan shoved down the throats of the American People.

Regardless of what choices people make the ultimate right is for them to make their choices. The government should not be dictating to any one what they must do with their money. The government should not in charge of forcing people into involuntary servitude for the sake of other individuals that made stupid decisions in their life. The system you support is a system of slavery, and tyranny. It is a system that is against all the progress of humanity since the dark ages which has been a continual march towards true scientific progress and enlightenment as a result of free enterprise unrestricted by the state and religion.

You and the path you seek will thrust humanity back into the dark ages and slow down economic progress. The path you desire will lead to proscriptions against seeking knowledge, because government will have a voice in what scientists experiment on. It is a system that makes men subject to the whims of others, which is a stupid state for any man to be in. The ideology you rely upon rests upon the maxim that "Might makes right," and ignores that it is the law of the jungle that you uphold, not the laws of civilization. The earliest recorded steps humanity took in agriculture nailed shut the coffin on that absurdity, unfortunately people like you have revived it from the grave and gave that which is dead life again. Ideas, like people, die, and like the dead they should not be woken up from their eternal rest, because when woken they are more terrible in their abuses, and more impatient in their attempts to revive themselves.

You seek to restore the rule of Kings and Monarchs, in a hundred years it would not surprise me if you were chanting that there is a divine right of bureaucrats just as people like you chanted that there was a divine right of kings before.

__________________
Libertas inaestimabilis res est - Liberty is a thing beyond all price. | Sic Semper Tyrannis

im getting really really tired of this illogical argument


"healthcare is broken, something needs to be done"




thats the same fucking argument as


"my foot is broken, so ill amputate it"


basically, we have a broken system, with an OPTION to do soemthing...

however this is not a good option at all, and is downright ridiculous (just like the foot amputation example)


if we need to do something about our system THAT bad....... we need more than 1 idea....

lets not put all of our eggs in the socialist basket no?