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  #11    
Old 07-03-2009, 06:42 PM
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No it is not. Inflation has to do with prices.

If the money supply doubles and the population doubles during that same period ceteris paribus - there will be ZERO inflation.


No Drama is correct Inflation IS money creation.
Mearly being fixated on price increase and ignoring money creation is what fouls most Keyenesiens up.
Inflation IS a tax and it always attacks the poor and middle class the worst.
I do see your point controling though Zero inflation, It goes with supply and demand.
IMO

Here is a short read on the subject from the Misses institute If you care to delve into it.
Just FYI to see what we are talking about.

http://mises.org/story/908

Some people, long dead, would be so amazed at the really lively debates we have about economics.
On the internet Laymen, Keyenisian, and Austrians even Chicago school. Its weird to think about...
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  #12    
Old 07-03-2009, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by tnrtinr View Post
Wages will lag - but they will catch up quickly because people will not be able to afford to go to work and seek higher paying jobs. Now you are making $16 and have the same $10,000 in debt. You have literally cut your debt ratio in half. With hyper-inflation you could make $10,000 a WEEK which further cuts your debt ratio.
Incorrect. Not everyones wages increase. People whose wages do not will fall further into debt.
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  #13    
Old 07-03-2009, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ilkhan View Post
No it is not. Inflation has to do with prices.

If the money supply doubles and the population doubles during that same period ceteris paribus - there will be ZERO inflation.


No Drama is correct Inflation IS money creation.
Mearly being fixated on price increase and ignoring money creation is what fouls most Keyenesiens up.
Inflation IS a tax and it always attacks the poor and middle class the worst.
I do see your point controling though Zero inflation, It goes with supply and demand.
IMO

Here is a short read on the subject from the Misses institute If you care to delve into it.
Just FYI to see what we are talking about.

http://mises.org/story/908

Some people, long dead, would be so amazed at the really lively debates we have about economics.
On the internet Laymen, Keyenisian, and Austrians even Chicago school. Its weird to think about...
Please explain how the example below would lead to inflation.

If the money supply doubles and the population doubles during that same period ceteris paribus.


This is a shift in supply and demand for dollars both proportionately to the right. You CAN increase the money supply without creating inflation. They are USUALLY tightly related concepts but inflation is different than an increase in the money supply.

If the money supply did not increase with an increase in population there would be a shortage of money. Imagine if the US had the same amount of money in circulation as we did in the 1800's!
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  #14    
Old 07-03-2009, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by tnrtinr View Post
No it is not. Inflation has to do with prices.

If the money supply doubles and the population doubles during that same period ceteris paribus - there will be ZERO inflation.
Wrong.

Inflation is caused by devaluation of the dollar. This happens when the Fed decides to print more money. More money means each dollar has a diminished value.

Remember how your mom always told you that money doesn't grow on trees? Well she was right. You can't just pump more currency into circulation without diminishing it's value. That's why people are so worried about inflation right now. The dollar is already down in value, and they want to print more freakin' money. It doesn't make sense.

Yes, inflation is really that bad for the average American. Just because prices go up, doesn't mean WAGES are going to go up. Hell, minimum wage was stagnant for damn near ten years but prices were steadily climbing, weren't they?

Let's say you currently make $10 per hour. A gallon of milk is about $4. Let's say inflation drives prices up to 5x what they are currently. A gallon of milk would now cost $20, but you're still only making $10 per hour. That means you have to work 2 full hours just to buy ONE gallon of milk. Essentially everything will cost you 5x what it currently does, which means you really need to earn $50 per hour to maintain your standard of living. In a recession or depression, NOBODY is going to pay you $50 per hour, because even employers are subject to inflated prices so it costs them 5x more to operate.

Population does not affect inflation in the way you have described. A double in population would not mean inflation would be zero, it would remain the same or may even inflate more due to economic stress from increased consumption.

Last edited by doobnVA; 07-03-2009 at 10:43 PM..
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  #15    
Old 07-03-2009, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by doobnVA View Post
Wrong.

Inflation is caused by devaluation of the dollar. This happens when the Fed decides to print more money. More money means each dollar has a diminished value.

Remember how your mom always told you that money doesn't grow on trees? Well she was right. You can't just pump more currency into circulation without diminishing it's value. That's why people are so worried about inflation right now. The dollar is already down in value, and they want to print more freakin' money. It doesn't make sense.

Yes, inflation is really that bad for the average American. Just because prices go up, doesn't mean WAGES are going to go up. Hell, minimum wage was stagnant for damn near ten years but prices were steadily climbing, weren't they?

Let's say you currently make $10 per hour. A gallon of milk is about $4. Let's say inflation drives prices up to 5x what they are currently. A gallon of milk would now cost $20, but you're still only making $10 per hour. That means you have to work 2 full hours just to buy ONE gallon of milk. Essentially everything will cost you 5x what it currently does, which means you really need to earn $50 per hour to maintain your standard of living. In a recession or depression, NOBODY is going to pay you $50 per hour, because even employers are subject to inflated prices so it costs them 5x more to operate.

Population does not affect inflation in the way you have described. A double in population would not mean inflation would be zero, it would remain the same or may even inflate more due to economic stress from increased consumption.
You are wrong - simply printing money does not devalue the currency. PERIOD. You are melding two concepts.

There are two things that will affect the value of the dollar - the supply of dollars and the demand for dollars. It is possible to print more dollars and have the value of the dollar increase, remain unchanged, or decrease depending on the demand for those dollars.

Printing money when the demand remains unchanged or is decreasing will cause inflation ceteris paribus. Ceteris paribus - Printing money when the demand for dollars is increasing will cause the 1. value of the dollar to increase, 2. stay the same or 3. decrease depending on whether 1. not enough money is printed to satisfy demand 2. the exact amount of money is printed as is demanded 3. more money is printed then the demanded

Money supply and inflation / deflation are TWO seperate concepts.

"Because money is used in virtually all economic transactions, it has a powerful effect on economic activity. An increase in the supply of money works both through lowering interest rates, which spurs investment, and through putting more money in the hands of consumers, making them feel wealthier, and thus stimulating spending. Business firms respond to increased sales by ordering more raw materials and increasing production. The spread of business activity increases the demand for labor and raises the demand for capital goods. In a buoyant economy, stock market prices rise and firms issue equity and debt. If the money supply continues to expand, prices begin to rise, especially if output growth reaches capacity limits. As the public begins to expect inflation, lenders insist on higher interest rates to offset an expected decline in purchasing power over the life of their loans."

Last edited by tnrtinr; 07-03-2009 at 11:28 PM..
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  #16    
Old 07-04-2009, 12:12 AM
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It seems that people often confuse the cause of inflation with the effect of inflation and unfortunately the dictionary isn't much help. The modern definition of inflation is "A persistent increase in the level of consumer prices or a persistent decline in the purchasing power of money..."
In other words according to this definition inflation is things getting more expensive.
But that is really the effect of inflation not inflation itself. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, Copyright © 2000 Published by Houghton Mifflin Company goes on to say:
...caused by an increase in available currency and credit beyond the proportion of available goods and services.
In other words, the common usage of the word inflation is the effect that people see. When they see prices in their local stores going up they call it inflation.
But what is being inflated? Obviously prices are being inflated. So this is actually "price inflation".
Price inflation is a result of "monetary inflation".
Or "monetary inflation" is the cause of "price inflation".
So what is "monetary inflation" and where does it come from?
"Monetary inflation" is basically the government figuratively cranking up the printing presses and increasing the money supply.
In the old days that was how we got inflation. The government would actually print more dollars. But today the government has much more advanced methods of increasing the money supply. Remember, "monetary inflation" is the "increase in the amount of currency in circulation".
But how do we define currency in circulation? Is it just the cash in our pockets? Or does it include the money in our checking accounts? How about our savings accounts? What about Money Market accounts, CD's, and time deposits?
"The Federal Reserve tracks and publishes the money supply measured three different ways-- M1, M2, and M3.
These three money supply measures track slightly different views of the money supply with M1 being the most liquid and M3 including giant deposits held by foreign banks. And M2 being somewhere in between i.e. basically Cash, Checking and Savings accounts.
Interestingly, the FED decided to stop tracking M3 effective March 23, 2006 for some mysterious reason.
But back to the question of the cause of inflation. Basically when the government increases the money supply faster than the quantity of goods increases we have inflation. Interestingly as the supply of goods increase the money supply has to increase or else prices actually go down.
Many people mistakenly believe that prices rise because businesses are "greedy". This is not the case in a free enterprise system. Because of competition the businesses that succeed are those that provide the highest quality goods for the lowest price. So a business can't just arbitrarily raise its prices anytime it wants to. If it does, before long all of its customers will be buying from someone else.
But if each dollar is worth less because the supply of dollars has increased, all business are forced to raise prices just to get the same value for their products.
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  #17    
Old 07-04-2009, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by tnrtinr View Post
You are wrong - simply printing money does not devalue the currency. PERIOD. You are melding two concepts.

There are two things that will affect the value of the dollar - the supply of dollars and the demand for dollars. It is possible to print more dollars and have the value of the dollar increase, remain unchanged, or decrease depending on the demand for those dollars.

Printing money when the demand remains unchanged or is decreasing will cause inflation ceteris paribus. Ceteris paribus - Printing money when the demand for dollars is increasing will cause the 1. value of the dollar to increase, 2. stay the same or 3. decrease depending on whether 1. not enough money is printed to satisfy demand 2. the exact amount of money is printed as is demanded 3. more money is printed then the demanded

Money supply and inflation / deflation are TWO seperate concepts.

"Because money is used in virtually all economic transactions, it has a powerful effect on economic activity. An increase in the supply of money works both through lowering interest rates, which spurs investment, and through putting more money in the hands of consumers, making them feel wealthier, and thus stimulating spending. Business firms respond to increased sales by ordering more raw materials and increasing production. The spread of business activity increases the demand for labor and raises the demand for capital goods. In a buoyant economy, stock market prices rise and firms issue equity and debt. If the money supply continues to expand, prices begin to rise, especially if output growth reaches capacity limits. As the public begins to expect inflation, lenders insist on higher interest rates to offset an expected decline in purchasing power over the life of their loans."
I cut and pasted this from the same web site you cut and pasted yours from:

"In less formal terms, putting more dollars in circulation dilutes the purchasing power of each dollar"

Inflation is a DIRECT result of money supply and demand. They are not two separate concepts.

Last edited by doobnVA; 07-04-2009 at 12:27 AM..
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  #18    
Old 07-04-2009, 02:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnrtinr View Post
You are wrong - simply printing money does not devalue the currency. PERIOD. You are melding two concepts.

There are two things that will affect the value of the dollar - the supply of dollars and the demand for dollars. It is possible to print more dollars and have the value of the dollar increase, remain unchanged, or decrease depending on the demand for those dollars.

Printing money when the demand remains unchanged or is decreasing will cause inflation ceteris paribus. Ceteris paribus - Printing money when the demand for dollars is increasing will cause the 1. value of the dollar to increase, 2. stay the same or 3. decrease depending on whether 1. not enough money is printed to satisfy demand 2. the exact amount of money is printed as is demanded 3. more money is printed then the demanded

Money supply and inflation / deflation are TWO seperate concepts.

"Because money is used in virtually all economic transactions, it has a powerful effect on economic activity. An increase in the supply of money works both through lowering interest rates, which spurs investment, and through putting more money in the hands of consumers, making them feel wealthier, and thus stimulating spending. Business firms respond to increased sales by ordering more raw materials and increasing production. The spread of business activity increases the demand for labor and raises the demand for capital goods. In a buoyant economy, stock market prices rise and firms issue equity and debt. If the money supply continues to expand, prices begin to rise, especially if output growth reaches capacity limits. As the public begins to expect inflation, lenders insist on higher interest rates to offset an expected decline in purchasing power over the life of their loans."
here's where you flat out said exactly what nodrama was eluding to. When you toss more money into circulation, the value of the dollar plummets, but the value of goods doesn't plummet, because production stays the same...and, as we're seeing with more and more lay offs, production is often haulted when the currency is hyper-inflated.

...and since our GDP is 72% consumerism, we don't have a whole lot of production goin on

i see what ur sayin about population, but i don't think it makes a difference at all when you're dumping tens of trillions of fiat dollars into circulation ALL at ONCE, in some sorta desperate, incompetent attempt to "save the economy"...which is not gonna happen
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  #19    
Old 07-04-2009, 02:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doobnVA View Post
I cut and pasted this from the same web site you cut and pasted yours from:

"In less formal terms, putting more dollars in circulation dilutes the purchasing power of each dollar"

Inflation is a DIRECT result of money supply and demand. They are not two separate concepts.
^truth spoken
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  #20    
Old 07-04-2009, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by tnrtinr View Post
Wages will lag - but they will catch up quickly because people will not be able to afford to go to work and seek higher paying jobs. Now you are making $16 and have the same $10,000 in debt. You have literally cut your debt ratio in half. With hyper-inflation you could make $10,000 a WEEK which further cuts your debt ratio.
with 30% unemployment wages catching up is a dream..
and with the government spending 18 trillion dollars in the last 8 months or so..
that means the government spent the average american family 180K dollars deeper into debt..on top the the ten trillion we had earlier. so we are looking at the average american family owes..to the government for their portion of the debt 280K dollars each.
i dont think the americans idiot spending can even match that of the governments.
80K is just a drop in the bucket. obama doubles that debt for you..and you didnt get anything out of it in just a few short months..wasnt that nice of him and the liberals?
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