lol! i love tunning in to rollitup.org/politics on a monday morning!



yes, our reliance on the ability of the reader to derive connotative meaning/definition is indeed the height of barbarity SKH.

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Med, echoing what Vi said, Bush has no control over (nor should he) what private companies do with their employees nor how the employees approach their responsibility to the companies they work with. it's obvious to everyone in the US (except you) that unions coupled with low work ethic and entitlement attitudes have destroyed our auto industry. since the 1950's unions have become everything they were opposed to before that. instead of partnering employees and management they play a game of mercy. instead of meshing the goals and needs of employees to officers they barter and trade long-term viability for short-term instant gratification. unions have caused so much failure, when will you see that?

as i said in another thread, foreclosures are due to consumer over-indulgence. people simply don't take their responsibilities seriously anymore. "charge it" has become the motto for the materialist army. how you tie irresponsible management of one's personal finances to the president is incomprehensible to me...

and, how you can jump track from the fact that Bush has balanced environmental concerns with fiscal realities to poor performance in certain markets is yet another example of your multifarious talent for detraction of meaningful dialog..






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"But even when you cease to be slaves, you are yet far removed from being placed on an equality with the white race."

- Abraham Lincoln, President of the United States of America, Hero to the servants of big government, Racist War Monger

7X, not trying to be a smart ass, But the phrase "incomprehensible to me" describes you in a nutshell. Anything I post is incomprehensible to you. I was a union member most of my life. I have a union pension, so talking down unions to me is useless. I'll agree that the unions aren't what they once were, but neither is anything else. Everyone is in it for themselves and screw everyone else. The Idea of a union of workers to obtain rights is a good thing. Unions have raised the wages in any industry they have been introduced to, and have eliminated the random firings that asshole bosses used to use as a fear tactic to the remaining workers. I'll also agree that some unions take advantage of both the employers and employees and actually impose hardships between management and rank and file. I'll also agree that some unions are more interested in their own power and incomes than the workers benefits, maybe most. But without unionism, the tyrannical corporations would run rip-shod over the workers and impose working conditions only heretofore known to slaves. There may be a few good companies that are actually grateful to their workers for their hard work, but most (And you know this) would exploit them to the bone. From all your anti people-pro corporation postings, you have to be some kind of boss or a wannabee. I'll guarantee you I wouldn't work for you. I've worked my ass of on every job I ever had. No one ever gave me one red cent, But I've told off my share of assholes and a couple a times, walked off the job. Just because you have authority, it doesn't excuse you from the responsibility of being a human being. Just for your information: I have a 2 year degree in Business admin. I was pretty busy trying to provide for my family and finally had to give up Night school. But I continued to work 2 jobs until I could move up the apprenticeship ladder to journey-mans pay. Don't ever confuse me with some lazy asshole you have working at your place. I didn't have a rich daddy, so no out of high school college for me. I went on the GI bill and received 90.00 a month for tuition and books, that was my college experience, and what did I learn? It's not what you know but who you know. BTW, charge it is what you do to own a house in America, how many working stiffs can pay cash for a house. It was the ignorance of the buyer, coupled with the greed of the loan companies and their sub prime lending that has caused this horrendous prospect of millions losing their homes. Mortgages that were once 1,000 a mo. are now sliding past 1,500-2,000 a month and driving people into the streets, so who won, the greedy Realtors and loan officers that took short term profits and left the homeowner dangling in the wind!

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Life is good, the water is sweet. The ground keeps moving beneath my feet.

i do agree that unions did have their place at one time. they furthered the development of craftsmen and tradesmen, they were an asset to the companies too because the union leaders did all the foot work in finding common ground, identifying problem areas and helping provide solutions.

the tide has turned. (most) union leaders are now highly paid pseudo-executives, wannabes of the most virulent sort. unbeknownst to members, unions are now involved in politics as much or more than their host industries. unions have lost their way, as have federal-capitalist corporations...

as far as your "anti people-pro corporation postings" comment, the only people i am against are the people against corporations and the only corporations i am for are the corporations that are for people. this recent trend of twisting the federal government and private business together is very disturbing to me. this is actually part of what initiated the entitlement attitude, IMO... but that's off topic.

you're right about the home loans, it's a 'charge it' scenario but buyers who don't put the smidgen of effort into researching their options get what they deserve. most of the time they get those bad loans because of sheer laziness or the disorienting rush of a get it now impulse... either way it's the consumer's fault. just because wal-mart sells razors doesn't mean everyone should buy one and cut their wrists... just because you can doesn't mean you should.


i was in the same boat as you with education, i worked one, usually two, sometimes three jobs and took a full load of classes, trying to do the right thing for my family. and, for me it was straight out of state prison to college. framed houses, sold electronics at sears, did remodeling, sold pest control, did painting, freelance web design, telemarketing, i was even an off-road driver, you name it! i had only a GED and student loans that are still being paid for. point is, don't assume that my parents paid for my school either, they didn't pay one cent. i worked for my education and my wife's education...still do. of course it's who you know, but the right people to get to know are all around us all the time. it's not like you have to be born into a certain set of circumstances, we create our circumstances. how else does a former state inmate wind up teaching at a university, among other things that might seem unlikely?





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__________________
"But even when you cease to be slaves, you are yet far removed from being placed on an equality with the white race."

- Abraham Lincoln, President of the United States of America, Hero to the servants of big government, Racist War Monger

Wow! Excellent posts on both of your parts.

Med ... the folks who are suffering through foreclosures at this point were the last to jump in on the real estate boom. Zero down is a great wealth builder when prices are escalating. Its called leveraging ... using other people's money to gain appreciation. The folks who get hurt are the last ones in. Zero down, then the market slows, the prices drop and the buyer is upside down in the property. Same thing happens in the stock market. There are no guarantees in life, stocks or real estate prices. So, buyer beware.

Vi

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Liberals are people that will believe anything twice.

I must compliment both of you VI and 7X for being so cordial. I have a lot more respect for you 7X after hearing about your earning your way, and Vi, being explanatory instead of inflamatory is a very good thing. I just want to say this about the real estate thing and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. For many people, the American dream is owning their own Home. Many people could not afford to own a 300,000 dollar home. Then came the creative financing, low downs and 1% sliding interest or thereabouts. Now, the average worker can afford the 1,000 dollar monthly payment and his dream is fullfilled. I'll agree that they should have studied the plan more carefrully, But to own your home is a real status symbol. When the interest begin to rise, so did their payments. Had there not been this creative financing, these homes would have set on the market untill the prices started to come down, and the realtors and loan officers would have been out on their asses, so hence the scams, and that is exactly what they were. You can see how a 1% loan @ 1,000 per Mo. turns into 2,000 per mo in a hurry as interest rises. Yeah, the buyer beware thing was in effect, but I'm willing to bet some pressure to go for the deal was applied by some unscrupulous loan officers, and boosted by realtors eager to unload their growing inventory, it's human nature on both sides, but the results are foreclosures out the Kazoo.

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Life is good, the water is sweet. The ground keeps moving beneath my feet.

Well i was expecting some more boring, pointless arguments. I'm pleasantly surprised.

See how many more ideas are exchanged without the rancor and theatrics...I agree, most excellent posts, med and 7x!

Med, I do not see how anyone can make the largest investment of their lifetime and NOT read the fine print of the contract!
I agree that 95% of all adjustable rate mortgages are nothing but trouble, but they are not "scams"..EVERYTHING is disclosed in the contract...Who is to blame if the borrower does not bother to read the fine print or understand what happens if and when interest rates go up?
These people are not victims as you suggest.

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If you wind up with a boring, miserable life because you listened to your mom, your dad, your teacher, your priest or some guy on TV telling you how to do your shit, then YOU DESERVE IT.
~ Frank Zappa ~

Liberty means responsibility, that is why most men dread it.
~George Bernard Shaw~

Some people are just natural victims... it's in the way they carry themselves. We are naturally repulsed by weakness, at least I am, although I do try my best to be sympathetic.

^^^That is a good and true point!
But who is to blame for their (victims) condition?
Is it possible for these victims to "butch up" and exercise due diligence?
Perpetual victim hood seems to me self inflicted!

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If you wind up with a boring, miserable life because you listened to your mom, your dad, your teacher, your priest or some guy on TV telling you how to do your shit, then YOU DESERVE IT.
~ Frank Zappa ~

Liberty means responsibility, that is why most men dread it.
~George Bernard Shaw~

It starts at school. That first day when you either fight or get beaten up. This is what CAN decide the rest of your life. This can be stopped, it's up to the parents to instil this will into the child. It's the law of the jungle, kids are great to watch, you can learn so much about our essence, our rawness... the shit we hide from ourselves.