My runoff is testing at 4.7 for seedlings

gjs4786

Well-Known Member
As the title states, having a bit of an issue here. Initially, I thought it was overwatering. The soil eventually dried out, and I watered with some diluted hydrogen peroxide. I just tested the runoff off this commercially available seed starting mix, and I was shocked at the reading. 4.7. I watered using spring water which reads at 8.2 (I know, right?) Obviously, the PH is too low, and that's why I am having these (slight leaf discoloration, slight cupping, severely stunted growth).
These being so young, I don't know the best route to take to fix the issue. I'll be PH adjusting the water for sure, but is there a quick fix for the soil PH? My instinct says transplant to better soil ASAP. Anyone have a better recommendation? These pics were taken yesterday, at 8 days. It's day 9 and they are still the same size. Thanks for any advice!
20180317_211055.jpg 20180317_211109.jpg
 

Tim1987

Well-Known Member
Id be transplanting too mate. Its way more hastle to fix, than its worth. They're still small enough to do it. Dont rinse the roots off though. Just stick em in new soil, and water it in.
Use some fresh soil.
Did you put anything organic, and really green in your soil? Like guano, or manure. They can lower your ph.
Sulphur, could do it too.
Where did you take your soil from? Or where did you get it?
How did you amend it? What did you use?
Good luck.
 

gjs4786

Well-Known Member
I'm heading to the store now to get some better soil. I used Miracle-Gro seedling starter mix. At the time, it was the only soil I could find that had the lowest amount of fertilizer. I don't understand why its so hard to find soil that isn't continuous release these days. Even the seedling mix is continuous release. I didn't add anything other than bottled spring water. Thanks for the advice, just the push I needed, I've been wanting to transplant these. Lol! I guess it's better that it happened so early in the grow than way down the line. Worst case scenario I'll just buy some more seeds. Could have hurt a lot more...
 

Tim1987

Well-Known Member
If it were me.
Your plant is still young.
Id put it in its next pot size, maybe double the size. I would get some good compost, or some gentle potting mix without slow release fertz. Then mix it with 60% perlite, and a tiny handful of gypsum. I wouldnt have to transplant for a few weeks, i'd have loads of aeration and drainage, and room for the plant to grow. If it got hungry, before its next pot, id just give it a little liquid organics.
Then all you gotta do, is put it in its final pot later on.
Good luck man.
 

gjs4786

Well-Known Member
If it were me.
Your plant is still young.
Id put it in its next pot size, maybe double the size. I would get some good compost, or some gentle potting mix without slow release fertz. Then mix it with 60% perlite, and a tiny handful of gypsum. I wouldnt have to transplant for a few weeks, i'd have loads of aeration and drainage, and room for the plant to grow. If it got hungry, before its next pot, id just give it a little liquid organics.
Then all you gotta do, is put it in its final pot later on.
Good luck man.
Thanks Tim. I bought Just Natural Organic potting mix. It has worm castings, feather meal, bird guano, with some other things. Has some really good reviews. Also picked up a bag of perlite. The plan was, to grow these out for about 2 weeks and then put them in their final 7 gallon containers. Those are my "next size up". So, 'll just be transferring these back into the pot they came out of with much better soil this time around. Hopefully in several days I'll start to see signs of recovery. Thanks again
 

Tim1987

Well-Known Member
Sounds great mate.
Just make sure you give it more perlite, than the good stuff.
You can always top dress, or feed later.
Keep us all updated.
Good luck
 
Last edited:

SwiSHa85

Well-Known Member
I'm heading to the store now to get some better soil. I used Miracle-Gro seedling starter mix. At the time, it was the only soil I could find that had the lowest amount of fertilizer. I don't understand why its so hard to find soil that isn't continuous release these days. Even the seedling mix is continuous release. I didn't add anything other than bottled spring water. Thanks for the advice, just the push I needed, I've been wanting to transplant these. Lol! I guess it's better that it happened so early in the grow than way down the line. Worst case scenario I'll just buy some more seeds. Could have hurt a lot more...
Pro Mix has some awesome soil that is available just about everywhere. Pro Mix HP is great for bud,MP is OMRI Organic and all contain Mycorrhize. I got Pro mix HP at walmart for $16 bucks for 3.8cf. I thought wow thats cheap. Come to find out they had it marked wrong so i went back and bought 4 more. Reg price was $38 bucks
 
Last edited:

gjs4786

Well-Known Member
Pro Mix has some awesome soil that is available just about everywhere. Pro Mix HP is great for bud,MP is OMRI Organic and all contain Mycorrhize. I got Pro mix HP at walmart for $16 bucks for 3.8cf. I thought wow that cheap. Come to find out they had it marked wrong so i went back and bought 4 more. Reg price was $38 bucks
Man I wish they sold pro-mix around here. I've never seen it! And just like any cannabis grower or gardener in general , I'm attracted to the gardening center like a moth to a flame, so I'm always looking. The mix I used just now seems pretty rich. I'm really optimistic about it until I swap them over to their FFOF pots, if they survive the transplant that is. This soils runoff tested at 6.5-6.6 - I will take it! I have the humidity domes off for the pic. I'll come back in 2-3 days and let you know how they're doing. Thanks guys.
20180318_223048[1].jpg
 

Blitz35

Well-Known Member
As the title states, having a bit of an issue here. Initially, I thought it was overwatering. The soil eventually dried out, and I watered with some diluted hydrogen peroxide. I just tested the runoff off this commercially available seed starting mix, and I was shocked at the reading. 4.7. I watered using spring water which reads at 8.2 (I know, right?) Obviously, the PH is too low, and that's why I am having these (slight leaf discoloration, slight cupping, severely stunted growth).
These being so young, I don't know the best route to take to fix the issue. I'll be PH adjusting the water for sure, but is there a quick fix for the soil PH? My instinct says transplant to better soil ASAP. Anyone have a better recommendation? These pics were taken yesterday, at 8 days. It's day 9 and they are still the same size. Thanks for any advice!
View attachment 4107782 View attachment 4107783
What was the concentration of the hydrogen peroxide you used when you tested the runoff? How dry was the soil when you did this test and how much water did you run through it at what rate? amount of runoff? I actually didnt see much issue with the seedlings other than possible overwatering/lack of oxygen at root level...so yes...like metioned, more perlite, less watering frequency.
If you can find some mychorrizae, it will help tons for transplant shock, and then be bonus through the end! Worm castings in your new mix, is gold!:) Will help tons with stabilizing ph, and maintaining a healthy root system. Dolomite lime will help as well with keeping your ph in soil in good range, providing calcium and magnesium. Gypsum is mostly neutral in ph but you get more calcium and sulfur. You can use some vermiculite along with perlite..however vermiculite does help with soil aeration, but unlike perlite, it absorbs water, so not quite as good as perlite in that sense, but it has the ability, like your soil, to feed the plants as it can hang on to alot of nutes. It also acts as a buffer to help keep ph neutralized.
 

gjs4786

Well-Known Member
What was the concentration of the hydrogen peroxide you used when you tested the runoff? How dry was the soil when you did this test and how much water did you run through it at what rate? amount of runoff? I actually didnt see much issue with the seedlings other than possible overwatering/lack of oxygen at root level...so yes...like metioned, more perlite, less watering frequency.
If you can find some mychorrizae, it will help tons for transplant shock, and then be bonus through the end! Worm castings in your new mix, is gold!:) Will help tons with stabilizing ph, and maintaining a healthy root system. Dolomite lime will help as well with keeping your ph in soil in good range, providing calcium and magnesium. Gypsum is mostly neutral in ph but you get more calcium and sulfur. You can use some vermiculite along with perlite..however vermiculite does help with soil aeration, but unlike perlite, it absorbs water, so not quite as good as perlite in that sense, but it has the ability, like your soil, to feed the plants as it can hang on to alot of nutes. It also acts as a buffer to help keep ph neutralized.
Hey Blitz. Thanks for the response. You caught me as I was going to sleep so pardon me if I don't answer your questions fully. I watered them with a one-to-one ratio of 3% HP and pH'd bottled spring water which equals, I suppose, 1.5%
pH solution. I was hoping to introduce some oxygen to the roots to see how they responded. 24 hours later, there was no response. Could I have waited longer? yes. But that's irrelevant at this point :) So, At that point, I took one of my more established seedlings and watered it with straight spring water, and let it drain off into another clean container. I tested that, and it was reading 4.7.

The water going in was 8.2. I just calibrated my PH pen too. I continued to flush that sucker until I had ran through a gallon of spring water, testing every 6 ounces of run off I suppose. Eventually the run off was mostly clear and registering wouldn't rise any further than 5.4 on the Richter scale :D At this point, i came on here, and I was hoping someone would suggest a transplant. That soil I had, I just didn't like it. So if they die, I'll have someone else to blame :) In any case, I added 50-60% perlite to this new mix, and the PH on the first run off test (no transplants yet) came out at a much more acceptable 6.5. Dolomite lime is listed as an ingredient in this mix. I don't know if it's at the quantity that it should be, though. It should be fine the next 2 weeks. In a week or so, I'll know if I should be purchasing my FFOF or upgrading to a bigger carbon filter/fan combo and getting new seeds instead. I looked for mychorrizae. Found some online. I can't afford the prices i was seeing at the moment. Wife is starting to clamp down. Said I needed to wait until next paycheck (thursday) to buy more stuff. I told her, this kinda thing doesn't work on our clock babe. It does its own thing on its own time :)

Regarding your assessment with the overwatering/lack of oxygen. I thought that was it too! I was convinced. I broke out the pH pen though and the numbers don't lie. I have read that PH issues can often mimic overwatering and/or nutrient deficiency symptoms, which causes a lot of inexperienced folks to make it worse by adding fertilizer. So, it's being properly watered now, in much better soil. If they can just hang out before they decide to die on me, I think we will know in 2-3 days if this was the medicine that needed to be prescribed. Thanks so much for your time in stopping by. Keep an eye out, I'll post before and after pics. in 2-3 days. Hope I managed to answer all of your questions! I'll be getting back to you about your thoughts on FFOF amendments, but I think that is out of the scope of this conversation at this particular juncture. :peace:
 

Blitz35

Well-Known Member
Hey Blitz. Thanks for the response. You caught me as I was going to sleep so pardon me if I don't answer your questions fully. I watered them with a one-to-one ratio of 3% HP and pH'd bottled spring water which equals, I suppose, 1.5%
pH solution. I was hoping to introduce some oxygen to the roots to see how they responded. 24 hours later, there was no response. Could I have waited longer? yes. But that's irrelevant at this point :) So, At that point, I took one of my more established seedlings and watered it with straight spring water, and let it drain off into another clean container. I tested that, and it was reading 4.7.

The water going in was 8.2. I just calibrated my PH pen too. I continued to flush that sucker until I had ran through a gallon of spring water, testing every 6 ounces of run off I suppose. Eventually the run off was mostly clear and registering wouldn't rise any further than 5.4 on the Richter scale :D At this point, i came on here, and I was hoping someone would suggest a transplant. That soil I had, I just didn't like it. So if they die, I'll have someone else to blame :) In any case, I added 50-60% perlite to this new mix, and the PH on the first run off test (no transplants yet) came out at a much more acceptable 6.5. Dolomite lime is listed as an ingredient in this mix. I don't know if it's at the quantity that it should be, though. It should be fine the next 2 weeks. In a week or so, I'll know if I should be purchasing my FFOF or upgrading to a bigger carbon filter/fan combo and getting new seeds instead. I looked for mychorrizae. Found some online. I can't afford the prices i was seeing at the moment. Wife is starting to clamp down. Said I needed to wait until next paycheck (thursday) to buy more stuff. I told her, this kinda thing doesn't work on our clock babe. It does its own thing on its own time :)

Regarding your assessment with the overwatering/lack of oxygen. I thought that was it too! I was convinced. I broke out the pH pen though and the numbers don't lie. I have read that PH issues can often mimic overwatering and/or nutrient deficiency symptoms, which causes a lot of inexperienced folks to make it worse by adding fertilizer. So, it's being properly watered now, in much better soil. If they can just hang out before they decide to die on me, I think we will know in 2-3 days if this was the medicine that needed to be prescribed. Thanks so much for your time in stopping by. Keep an eye out, I'll post before and after pics. in 2-3 days. Hope I managed to answer all of your questions! I'll be getting back to you about your thoughts on FFOF amendments, but I think that is out of the scope of this conversation at this particular juncture. :peace:
I asked about the run off..because if you used H2O2 in your flush, maybe it went down the side of the container and you caught it before it had a chance to sit and mix with your medium. The 3% variety is highly unstable, so they have to add acidifying agents to it to make sure the ph stays low as H2O2 is only stable at lower ph. THe 30% variety has no stabilizing agents in it and is more reliable to use. As for buying extra gear..ya, you gotta listen to the lady lol..you're stuck between two of them and it seems neither is cooperating lol..ohhhhgh the life of men :) Hope they continue to prosper:)
 
Last edited:

Tim1987

Well-Known Member
I agree with the others. You dont need to test runoff.
I'm also assuming from your posts you're not new to gardening. You love the hardware as much as I :bigjoint:
Runoff in soil, ive found, is fairly reliable in small pots.
Large pots, you get an average at best.
But you already knew this.
So i didn't bother saying :P
Happy growing.
Keep us all updated.
 
Last edited:

gjs4786

Well-Known Member
Run off ph means nothing and will have you chasing your tail. The proper way to check soil ph is with a slurry test.
Yeah, I've heard mixed reactions to testing runoff. But there are a lot of people that do it to test how much their soil is buffering the water. For instance, 6PH water goes in, 6.5 water comes out, it is buffering the water .5, right? In any case, the slurry test with 6.0 water reads 6.9. The run off with 6.0 water is 6.5....I'm done lol
 

Tim1987

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I've heard mixed reactions to testing runoff. But there are a lot of people that do it to test how much their soil is buffering the water. For instance, 6PH water goes in, 6.5 water comes out, it is buffering the water .5, right? In any case, the slurry test with 6.0 water reads 6.9. The run off with 6.0 water is 6.5....I'm done lol
Agreed.
The only thing to be careful about though, is, when you have a large pot. The ph could be 5 on top, and 10 down the bottom.
Runoff would come through about 6.5 - 7. You'll have no idea there are hot spots.
But smaller pots, imho, going by runoff, is no problem at all.
By the sounds of it though, yours are praying.
If you want a natural ph down, for your water, thats kind on soil, ive heard citric acid is fantastic. Ive never needed it though. Water where i am, is pretty damn neutral.
Im pretty sure, they sell specific, citric acid ph down too.
Happy grow dude.:bigjoint:
 

whitebb2727

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I've heard mixed reactions to testing runoff. But there are a lot of people that do it to test how much their soil is buffering the water. For instance, 6PH water goes in, 6.5 water comes out, it is buffering the water .5, right? In any case, the slurry test with 6.0 water reads 6.9. The run off with 6.0 water is 6.5....I'm done lol
No. That's not right. Soil ph swings as it dries. There are also other things in soil that will make the ph read wrong.

Mix equal parts soil to deionized water and test the ph of that for accurate soil ph reading. It has to be deionized distilled because it is neutral.

Testing runoff is pointless and have you chasing your tail.

You need to work on proper watering technique. That will help more.

I posted an article from a university on soil ph and testing that said the same about testing runoff. It is inaccurate.
 

Blitz35

Well-Known Member
Agreed.
The only thing to be careful about though, is, when you have a large pot. The ph could be 5 on top, and 10 down the bottom.
Runoff would come through about 6.5 - 7. You'll have no idea there are hot spots.
But smaller pots, imho, going by runoff, is no problem at all.
By the sounds of it though, yours are praying.
If you want a natural ph down, for your water, thats kind on soil, ive heard citric acid is fantastic. Ive never needed it though. Water where i am, is pretty damn neutral.
Im pretty sure, they sell specific, citric acid ph down too.
Happy grow dude.:bigjoint:
Not to mention..citric acid also helps with the uptake of phosphorus anions that may have become insoluble for one reason or another. These anions will attach themselves to the citric acid molecule and then can be delivered to the plant.
 
Top