Fixing a bad soil mix - looking for input/suggestions

N

NewGrower2011

Well-Known Member
So in a prior thread I shared the results of a soil test I had ran by logan labs which shows I have a bad mix that has some toxicity issues. In that thread there's discussion about the immobility of the toxic level contents.

https://www.rollitup.org/t/help-with-interpreting-first-soil-report-recommendations.956522/

I then tried going the route of a paid consult by one of the well known vendors but that became the single worse internet business transactions I've had in years & years. In the end I got a refund and not the help I needed...

I need to get things moving again, been putting it off and the hangup I have now is how do I want to fix things? I've decided there's enough material to be worth trying to 'fix tihngs' rather than throw out & start over. The materials in there cost a good bit and I don't like being wasteful...

So my gameplan is adjust the levels that are low... raising them to the same high levels of the other 2 which are high on the one and toxic on the other if I follow correctly. So on the others that are low or very low in relation to those elevated levels - seems like those could be raised. That approach brings the entire mix to be balanced, just extremely "hot" and needing diluted.

Then my plan is to use an inert media (recommendations sought here too) to "cut" the hot mix and bring it all into a range that is then good for actual use. Hopefully without needing a lot of 'cooking time' either.

I have several amendments and some soil on hand to pick from... i.e. JustRite, FFoF, HappyFrog, some sphagnum moss. For amendments I was looking at excluding anything with any notable P or K focusing on just N only inputs - but on soil report I'm not sure how to determine how much N I'm working with to start with so I don't know how to raise it to an appropriate level for the hot mix. I do have Neem but that's 6-1-2, the Crab meal is 2-3-0 and blood meal being 12-0-0 but less desirable (I hear?). I have some cottonseed meal but that's 6-1-1 so avoiding the P&K inputs I'm favoring the blood meal.

Anyone in the know about to steer me right here? I gave up on the paid consult approach - totally discouraged on that front; Was expecting them to be able to help me figure out what to use/purchase from them and at what ratios & how long to 'cook' before using. If you can recommend a better vendor I'd consider it again so long as you don't recommend the one that failed me already. ;-)
 
ANC

ANC

Well-Known Member
The thing is some elements are transported away by water relatively quickly in the absence of soil microbes to hang on to it.

My method would take a little longer but would be a gentler first move.I'd get some kind of good mulch on there. and then water it with compost tea twice a week.
Let as many weeds grow as you can tolerate, you can trim them short, we only care about the root side of things. The greater variety of plant species, the more variety of microbes you will have.
How is the calcium levels in the soil? Having lots of calcium available can go a long way towards getting the soil soft. Once you have some life going water in some trichoderma and work in a little mycos. Also, make sure you have a good dose of biochar in the soil for all the critters to stay in.

Nature can heal itself, we can help.
Prevent solar radiation on the bare soil, the UV dries out the top layer and sterilizes stuff.
Keep the soil cool
Give the soil organic matter
Innoculate the soil with microbes and make sure they never go hungry or they will start attacking and eating each other.
Before you know you can grow lawn with 8' long roots.
 
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N

NewGrower2011

Well-Known Member
So I'm primarily indoors and don't have space to leave them out/growing a cover crop. But I could perhaps figure out something in outdoor smart pots, etc. I was trying to avoid doing anything outdoors to turn around and drag that soil back indoors and then have to deal with any pests that come about from it's time outdoors.

So if I find a good cover crop that is P/K hungry and let that soil sit outside, am I not also depleting all the other goodies I'd want to remain for use indoors? So then I'd still have an unbalanced soil - albeit perhaps not with the tox issues.
 
N

NewGrower2011

Well-Known Member
I think a key thing I need to figure out is my current N level so I can add a dash of a N-only source and let things sit a week or two. That lab report doesn't seem to give a clue on N levels though and I think I read somewhere they don't for a reason I don't recall.

So my first goal at the moment is figuring how can I get a better ideal of current N level and then figure out how much to add (if any) to raise the levels in line with those high P-K levels so that when I do dilute things I'm not super low on N itself (which if I detected I know I could top-dress for it but if known deficient why not get mixed in rather than top-dress later after issue noticed).
 
W

Wetdog

Well-Known Member
You're sorta going at this ass backwards.

First, just how much mix are we talking about?

Forget about the N for the moment, it's about the easiest thing in the world to add and I use bloom meal also for just N situations.

What you need is a neutral base like pro mix + more aeration and lime to buffer, so it's good by itself. This you add to the toxic mess to cut it down to normal levels. THEN figure out just how much N to add.

But first get that neutral mix to cut the toxic mix, not make the toxic even more toxic.

Wet
 
CookieKush

CookieKush

Well-Known Member
I'd pick one of the choices you have of medium or maybe run an experiment with one of each in a pot.

The Fox Farm soils have buffer already so dont add anything for the first few weeks, they dont need it. For cover crop questions look up "NO TILL SOIL" for more information on the right cover crops to add / absorb unwanted N etc.

Always add additional perlite or vermiculite as well. If in doubt... less is more!
 
ShLUbY

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
Wetdog said:
You're sorta going at this ass backwards.

First, just how much mix are we talking about?

Forget about the N for the moment, it's about the easiest thing in the world to add and I use bloom meal also for just N situations.

What you need is a neutral base like pro mix + more aeration and lime to buffer, so it's good by itself. This you add to the toxic mess to cut it down to normal levels. THEN figure out just how much N to add.

But first get that neutral mix to cut the toxic mix, not make the toxic even more toxic.

Wet
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This entirely. get your levels down by cutting, then get the N in there. cutting with peat/aeration is your best bet for this. use lime accordingly. you can figure out how much N to add by the time you get your total final volume of soil after you cut. then you know how much N to apply... likely .75-1.25 cup/cuft. Good luck man.
 
N

NewGrower2011

Well-Known Member
Yeah there's roughly 100gal of medium I'm trying to not toss - I only need about 30 at a given time. I have the media above and still have a big bag of chunky perlite so that was my aeration fix plans; I've not been able to find other rice hulls or the like locally so perlite is the easiest to source. The mix already has some biochar, turface, old hydroton, etc and when making it initially there as around 10 gal or so additional perlite added.
 
CookieKush

CookieKush

Well-Known Member
NewGrower2011 said:
Yeah there's roughly 100gal of medium I'm trying to not toss - I only need about 30 at a given time. I have the media above and still have a big bag of chunky perlite so that was my aeration fix plans; I've not been able to find other rice hulls or the like locally so perlite is the easiest to source. The mix already has some biochar, turface, old hydroton, etc and when making it initially there as around 10 gal or so additional perlite added.
Click to expand...
Dont over do it :-) just go easy and follow the rule of less is more... other than perlite, but dont make it too heavy on perlite or the water wont get a chance to do anything. : )
 
N

NewGrower2011

Well-Known Member
So any suggested ratios? Hot mix 1:1 with inert/lime - was considering 1:1:1 with inert / FFoF / Hot Mix or 2:1:1 with half just being the inert & some more aeration/lime. Which lime type should I use in these circumstances? dolomite? gypsum?
 
CookieKush

CookieKush

Well-Known Member
NewGrower2011 said:
So any suggested ratios? Hot mix 1:1 with inert/lime - was considering 1:1:1 with inert / FFoF / Hot Mix or 2:1:1 with half just being the inert & some more aeration/lime. Which lime type should I use in these circumstances? dolomite? gypsum?
Click to expand...
Why do you need the lime if you are using FFOF?
 
Bugeye

Bugeye

Well-Known Member
Soil tests on organic mixes are often misleading. You have a high level of organic material so putting down a bacteria dominant tea may be helpful to break down those elements more quickly. My super soil mixes have always tested very high for N, P, and K but plants do great because the source of the nutes is organic matter that has had time to compost. I use soil reports primarily to measure salt levels and calcium/magnesium.
 
W

Wetdog

Well-Known Member
NewGrower2011 said:
So any suggested ratios? Hot mix 1:1 with inert/lime - was considering 1:1:1 with inert / FFoF / Hot Mix or 2:1:1 with half just being the inert & some more aeration/lime. Which lime type should I use in these circumstances? dolomite? gypsum?
Click to expand...
I use dolomite. Not only is it local and cheap ($4.50/40lb bag), I never have cal/mag issues. 1cup/cf

Stuff like FFOF or ProMix have enough lime in them to get listed, but not nearly enough to carry you through a grow.

Do some at the 1:1 inert to hot mix first and observe. Like 10 or 15 gallons.

Get a baseline of sorts before you start tossing unknowns in there (the FFOF). Get a handle on things, THEN experiment. You have a good amount to play with.

Wet
 
Bugeye

Bugeye

Well-Known Member
CookieKush said:
But supplement it when needed, not before : )
Click to expand...
Tossing in some crushed oyster shells or some other slow release version will not hurt anything and is best done before growing so it can be mixed into the soil. But to your point, amending your water with cal/mag is super easy as well.
 
CookieKush

CookieKush

Well-Known Member
Bugeye said:
Tossing in some crushed oyster shells or some other slow release version will not hurt anything and is best done before growing so it can be mixed into the soil. But to your point, amending your water with cal/mag is super easy as well.
Click to expand...
Yea, just a preferred way to keep control : )
 
N

NewGrower2011

Well-Known Member
I was assuming mixed in was a preferred method so that was my main thinking. Here initially I plan to throw it all on a tarp and get it a good mix - once it's in use and in the room I don't have the luxury of space I have otherwise. On the lime deal I had read elsewhere that though ProMix and the like have lime listed, it wasn't in sufficient quantities. Plus I believe my report showed I was a little on the low side of Ca so I thought it would be beneficial for that reason and buffering of the peat I'd be using/adding which is just plain old peat moss I have on hand already.
 
MistaRasta

MistaRasta

Well-Known Member
NewGrower2011 said:
So in a prior thread I shared the results of a soil test I had ran by logan labs which shows I have a bad mix that has some toxicity issues. In that thread there's discussion about the immobility of the toxic level contents.

https://www.rollitup.org/t/help-with-interpreting-first-soil-report-recommendations.956522/

I then tried going the route of a paid consult by one of the well known vendors but that became the single worse internet business transactions I've had in years & years. In the end I got a refund and not the help I needed...

I need to get things moving again, been putting it off and the hangup I have now is how do I want to fix things? I've decided there's enough material to be worth trying to 'fix tihngs' rather than throw out & start over. The materials in there cost a good bit and I don't like being wasteful...

So my gameplan is adjust the levels that are low... raising them to the same high levels of the other 2 which are high on the one and toxic on the other if I follow correctly. So on the others that are low or very low in relation to those elevated levels - seems like those could be raised. That approach brings the entire mix to be balanced, just extremely "hot" and needing diluted.

Then my plan is to use an inert media (recommendations sought here too) to "cut" the hot mix and bring it all into a range that is then good for actual use. Hopefully without needing a lot of 'cooking time' either.

I have several amendments and some soil on hand to pick from... i.e. JustRite, FFoF, HappyFrog, some sphagnum moss. For amendments I was looking at excluding anything with any notable P or K focusing on just N only inputs - but on soil report I'm not sure how to determine how much N I'm working with to start with so I don't know how to raise it to an appropriate level for the hot mix. I do have Neem but that's 6-1-2, the Crab meal is 2-3-0 and blood meal being 12-0-0 but less desirable (I hear?). I have some cottonseed meal but that's 6-1-1 so avoiding the P&K inputs I'm favoring the blood meal.

Anyone in the know about to steer me right here? I gave up on the paid consult approach - totally discouraged on that front; Was expecting them to be able to help me figure out what to use/purchase from them and at what ratios & how long to 'cook' before using. If you can recommend a better vendor I'd consider it again so long as you don't recommend the one that failed me already. ;-)
Click to expand...


Didn't see anything in the thread listing what amendments you used in your soil..

Can you give a breakdown of amendments used and amounts put in per cu ft?

From what I can see from your test; your Calcium is WAYYY too low. Out of the 5558 ppms occupying your exchange sites, only 268 ppms are available to the plant. You need to add a lot more Ca. Your ph is fine, so don't add it in the form of Carbonate i.e. Lime or oyster shell.

I'd opt for gypsum (Calcium Sulfate.)

Not only will it give you the available Ca you need, but it will push out your other cations which are in excess. Your Mg should be around 10-12% max, and your K should be around 3-4% starting out. Your sodium isn't ridiculous but it would help to pull it down as well. As we all know in the 'Organic world,' Sodium isn't something we want, especially in excess. I like to see my Na come back no higher than 1.5-2%.

Your anions look good. P level won't hurt anything other than mycorrhizae populations. BUT, you need Ca to utilize that P, so first, before anything, get more Ca in the soil.
 
N

NewGrower2011

Well-Known Member
@MistaRasta thanks for the input. Actually you had visited my original thread where I started this little adventure....

https://www.rollitup.org/t/help-with-renewing-recycling-my-soil-what-to-add-back-in-how-much.948762/

So it's a witches brew of things I had on-hand, things I found locally or otherwise ordered (i.e. the neem). I was chuckling at my own expense as I read that thread and my comments about overdoing it on Ca and being worried about not enough K... Ha! Fool!

So the gypsum sounds like a no brainer - but at what ratio?

Also would anything like MammothP target breaking down the P specifically and be either harmful or more importantly something to avoid? Will enyzmes help in my case in any manner? I did decide to try Canna's product this time and have it on hand. Since I tossed my mix back into a 33gal can I wet it down with some figuring if it's sitting - let it be productive time somehow.
 
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